Microsoft and American Airlines also use prison labor.... Ian > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Henry C.K. Liu > Sent: Monday, July 19, 1999 3:01 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [PEN-L:9317] Re: Re: Re: socialism vs. union rights > > > > > Jim Devine wrote: > > > >You are obviously a victim of the American press when it comes to > > information on China.< > > > > As evident by you dig aboutt prison factories. There are prisons > in China and > they do work art some form of production, just like US prisoners > make liscense > plates or what not. That doe not make them prison factories, > except as defined > by Freedom House. > Harry Wu, (I assume you know who he is if you follow the prison labor > controversy) is a US imperialist agent. > > > And as I've said before, state ownership is only a means to an > end, not a > > socialist goal in itself. Algeria, for example, has a lot of state > > ownership (especially the oil industry), but most don't consider that > > country to be "socialist" but rather to be "state capitalist." > Nor is the > > US Tennessee Valley Authority "socialist," no matter what the WSJ says. > > > > As I said state owner is only about 20%. > > > > > The role of local government- and collective- and cooperative-owned > > resources depends on how democratic the local governments, > collectives, and > > cooperatives are and how they work together. If they are subordinated to > > the market, that encourages economism, unemployment, and > > environmentally-destructive results. If they are subordinated to the > > bureaucratically-organized central plan, that encourages > passivity, hidden > > unemployment, and cynicism (along with environmental > destruction when the > > USSR's lead is followed). If they are subordinated to a > > democratically-decided central plan ... since I don't think > they are so, I > > won't finish the sentence. > > > > The collective in China are in fact run very democratically. Of > cource, you > may know better. > > > > > >In foreign trade and FDI (foreign direct investment) jt ventures, for > > every $ of export, only 18 cents goes to China, the other 82 > cents goes to > > foreign capital, service and middlemen out side of China. On > top of that > > the mark up in retail prices is generally 80% for Chinese > goods. So when > > you buy a Disney doll for $10, Disney gets $8, and foreign capital and > > services get $1.64 and China gets 36 cents to pay for rent, > labor and all > > other production costs. Now these labor abuses occurred in the > jt. venture > > companies for which most Chinese, bureaucrats or worker, have no love.< > > > > this is a sign of economic dependency. Are the prison factories joint > > ventures, BTW? > > > > >We will be very happy if all this is banned from China. This is the > > struggle within China in the debate over the wisdom of china joining the > > WTO. Much of this has been discussed on other lists... Many so-called > > labor activists are not particular interest in the welfare of > the Chinese > > workers in the jt ventures. They are trying to push for privatization of > > the SOEs with American style unions, and they provide bogus labor abuse > > data to the likes of the Voice of America and Freedom House and the > > Heritage Foundation and to Congress for anti-China propaganda. < > > > > To whom are you referring? I am not familiar with this > propaganda, except > > that it seeps down through the L.A. TIMES and similar organs. > > > > >I would suggest that you keep an open mind until your > information is more > > reliable. ...< > > > > I would suggest that you keep an open mind about the need for democratic > > rights, even in the poorest countries. We should not presume that those > > with all the power know what's best for the people, even in the poor > > countries. > > > > >If you follow Chinese politics, you will know that the revisionist > > reformists are on the defensive and have been for sometime.< > > > > what are "revisionist reformists"? who decides who these people are? > > > > Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] & > > http://clawww.lmu.edu/Faculty/JDevine/jdevine.html > > I am exhausted and have a lot of other things to do. We are not getting > anywhere. Let's just disagree. > >
