I had written: >>The point is not to make a virtue of necessity: repression of independent trade unions in China, for example, might be necessary from the point of view of promoting economic growth there (and winning the battle of international trade), but that doesn't mean that socialists should apologize for it. <<< Max asks: >>Conditionally, isn't that what you just did?<< I responded: >no, since the main socialist goal is hardly that of economic growth (or the winning of the battle of international trade). < this needs to be amplified, clarified. It seems to me that it's _capitalism's_ goal to promote economic growth (along with the abolition of precapitalist nonsense). On the other hand, winning the battle of international trade is the goal of _national_ capitalisms (Germany, the US, Japan, Taiwan, etc.) In the poor and dependent countries fighting against capitalist-imperialist domination, like China, these goals have been embraced by bureaucratic-socialist regimes. While the goal of economic growth (and the abolition of precapitalist nonsense) is one that Marx & Engels praised in the MANIFESTO, it's mostly its _potential_ that they saw as positive. They were quite conscious of the down-side of economic growth under capitalism. This downside has become clearer in the last century, especially the environmental destruction. And the "modernist" urge to destroy precapitalist ways of life has had a horrible effect on people (as Louis, Jim C., and others have pointed out, especially concerning American Indians). Along with the nonsense, a lot of sense gets destroyed, all benefiting only the powerful. As internationalists, Marx & Engels would clearly reject the national goal of winning the battle of international trade out of hand. Followers like Lenin and Bukharin linked that drive to the movement toward war and/or international stagnation. So what are socialist goals? Under capitalism, my short list includes (not necessarily in order of importance): * Defending workers against the attacks by their employers * Trying to get a _good deal_ out of economic growth, gaining wages that rise with or faster than labor-productivity increases. * Trying to improve the _quality_ of economic growth, e.g., trying to push for more environment-friendly growth. * Pushing for more _democracy_ and fighting the employers' and the right wing's attacks on democracy (including the Bill of Rights, in the US). * Supporting feminism, attacking racism and gay-hatred. * Defending the precapitalist communities and trying to right past wrongs against them. * Attacking irrationalities like the "war on drugs" and the commercialization of everything on earth. I'm sure there's something I've left out. I would say that similar socialist goals apply in places like China, though of course it's not my job to fight for those goals there. Chinese socialists should decide on the own goals, though of course I'd support those socialists with goals similar to my own. OK, OK, I'll limit myself to 2 messages to pen-l tomorrow. BTW, I think it would be good if we all accepted a cap on the daily number of messages each of must posts to pen-l. That could mean that more would participate. Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] & http://clawww.lmu.edu/Faculty/JDevine/JDevine.html
