>CBC Radio As It Happens 6.30 pm Wednesday August 15 2001 >Interview by Terry McLeod >Interviewee Amanda Tadura, Elizabeth Fry Society (Sudbury) > >(Barbara Budd) ... Kimberly Rogers was under house arrest in her apartment >in Sudbury, Ontario. Rogers, who was 9 months pregnant was found dead in >that apartment on Thursday night. Some people blame the Ontario government >for her death. One of those people is Amanda Tadura. She works with the >Elizabeth Fry Society in Sudbury and we reached her there. > >Terry McLeod: >Can you tell us briefly how Kimberly Rogers came to be under house arrest >in the first place. > >AT: >She was charged or pleaded guilty to defrauding Social Services by >accepting an OSAP loan. > >TMc: >What's an OSAP loan? > >AT: Ontario Student Assistance ... when you go to college, you can get >loans from the government. > >TMc: >Ok. So she accepted this loan. How much money was it? > >AT: I believe it was above $40,000 ... it was for three or four years >College. > >TMc: >I see, and she was collecting welfare at the time? And what's the problem >with that under Ontario law? > >AT: She was no longer eligible for welfare once she had taken Ontario >student loans. > >TMc: >So what happened then when her welfare was cut off? > >AT: Her welfare was cut off when she pleaded guilty to the charge. She was >placed under 9 months of house arrest and her penalty at the time was >suspension of benefits for 3 months ... now if you are charged with the >same offence it's a lifetime suspension. > >TMc: >So she then was sentenced to house arrest for 9 months ... > >AT: At the same time her benefits ceased. > >TMc: >So what source of income did she have during that 3 months when her welfare >was cut off? > >AT: That's when she contacted Elizabeth Fry. I don't think she really >realized the situation she got herself into until the rent was due, there >was no food in the house, her medication was discontinued because that was >her only prescription plan. > >TMc: >Medication for what? > >AT: Anti depressants for depression. > >TMc: >So she was suffering from depression? > >At: Hm-hm. > >TMc: >So her benefits were suspended for 3 months and what happened after that? > >AT: Well, community agencies here in Sudbury started working together - >unfortunately we could provide things like baby clothes and food but we >couldn't get any money so we went to Community Legal Aid and they took the >case down to Toronto. It was represented by a Toronto law firm and a >charter challenge was put into effect whereby she was reinstated benefits >until the court case in September. > >TMc: >So she got her welfare benefits back ... > >AT: >Right ... back, yeah. > >TMc: >And was she living on those welfare benefits when she died? > >AT: >Yes. > >TMc: >Did you visit her during this difficult time? > >AT: >Many many times because being under house arrest meant she was only allowed >out for 3 hours a week. This was one of the few situations where I went to >the client's home and drove her to the doctor's ... things like that ... >and basically did grocery shopping for her and then drive groceries to her >house. > >TMc: >You mean the house arrest sentence required her to be in her home all the >time except for 3 hours a week. > >AT: >She was allowed out 3 hours a week. > >TMc: >What effect did this house arrest have on her? > >AT: >I think she was starting to withdraw. At the beginning she phoned a lot >more, she needed a lot more support. I took it in a sense as a positive >side ... that she was maybe becoming more connected with her family and she >was ... but I also think she was withdrawing and her pregnancy was not ... >it was a difficult pregnancy for her. > >TMc: >How far along was this pregnancy when she died last Thursday? > >AT: >Well Kim said 8 1/2 months ... > >TMc: >What's known about the cause of the death? > >AT: >Nothing at this time. I don't believe it was heat exhaustion. That's been >ruled out, but I don't know. > >TMc: >Why do you mention heat exhaustion? > >At: >Because her place was so, so hot and because she couldn't ... the rest of >us, during this heat wave ... we made for the lake or something right? But >her place was very hot and she was literally stranded there. > >TMc: >And was Sudbury suffering through that heat wave of last week as well? > >AT: >Oh yes. It was tough. > >TMc: >What effect did it have on her? > >AT: >I think it just made her quite ill ... just spiritually and physically ill. >It was hard. And any woman in the later stage of pregnancy would have found >that heat wave difficult and to be isolated, stuck in that little house >[note: 2nd floor apartment] >and afraid of the future ... She was a very strong woman to have gone >through what she did and still have hope for the future, and the baby. > >TMc: >Who do you hold responsible for her death? > >AT: >... legislation that is put into effect without looking at the >repercussions, you're talking about a baby here too ... not just a mother >... a baby. > >TMc: >Which legislation are you talking about? > >AT: >The one that has been imposed about the welfare bans and the current one >for life ... >[ban on welfare receipt]. Let's take a look at house arrest. What does >house arrest mean? Who is responsible for Kimberly? She's still in custody. >When she's on house arrest, she's still in custody per se, you know ... and >house arrest. So I think that needs to be looked at more. > >TMc: >How could the provincial government in Ontario have better handled this case? > >AT: >More supervision. More supervision. There's a woman who had no income >coming in and placing her under house arrest with basically no roof over >her head. None of the shelters could have taken her here. They didn't look >at the situation. They make these rules and this legislation ... they have >no idea what it's like for people who have no income and are living so >marginally. They don't realize. Then they complain because they are >breaking laws or they are working the streets or stuff like that. You know? >Reality. Get out there and look at what's really going on. > >TMc: >She fought back against this legislation. Do you feel that her efforts >against it and now perhaps her death may in the end have achieved something? > >AT: >There was a good chance she was going to win the charter challenge. There >was a good chance of it. There were other people coming forward who had >been put on the lifetime ban who were going to offer their support and tell >their stories. Well ... unfortunately now I don't think it's going to go >through. It can't go through the system because of her death ... > >But ... this is all very new. The implications of this legislation are just >coming known so maybe it can be investigated more, you know? > >TMc: >Ms. Tadura. Thanks so much for your time on this. > >AT: >You're welcome. > >Barbara Budd: >Amanda Tadura is with the Elizabeth Fry Society in Sudbury. We tried to reach >Ontario's Minister of Social Services to speak to him about the Rogers case >but he wasn't available, but in a prepared statement the Ministry's >officials said they are saddened by the tragedy; however they say they have >to determine the facts before they comment. > Tom Walker Bowen Island, BC 604 947 2213
