Yoshie:
>Cuban socialists aren't opposed to genetic engineering per se, though
>I don't know if they like eatin' tuna & doubt that they are sanguine
>about trends in corporate genetic engineering. :->
Cubans also use nuclear power. In any case, it does not make sense to
extrapolate from the ec
>Yoshie:
>>Cuban socialists aren't opposed to genetic engineering per se, though
>>I don't know if they like eatin' tuna & doubt that they are sanguine
>>about trends in corporate genetic engineering. :->
>
>Cubans also use nuclear power. In any case, it does not make sense to
>extrapolate from t
Lou says:
>Yoshie:
>>I'm not presenting Cuba as a model, however attractive & promising
>>its combination of organic agriculture & genetic engineering may be.
>>I'm simply saying that one-dimensional opposition to genetic
>>engineering (& science in general) is counter-productive. Genetic
>>engi
Carrol says:
>Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
> > Farming without industrial inputs & equipment tends to be very
>> labor-intensive, often involving back-breaking labor for tilling,
>> sowing, weeding, watering, & harvesting.
>
>Speaking of what will be the nature of post-revolutionary agriculture
>se
Lou says:
> >* Strawberry plants are four or five inches tall and grow from
>>beds eight to twelve inches high. One must bend at the waist to pick
>>the fruit, which explains why the job is so difficult. Bending over
>>that way for an hour can cause a stiff back; doing so for ten to
>>twel
Michael says:
>Farmers like workers to bend over. It makes it easy to spot who is
>relaxing. If strawberries were grown in raised beds, like you see in some
>greenhouses, little bending would be required.
That makes sense. An example of how capitalist class power throws
efficiency & rational
>At 10:27 PM 06/27/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>>>But mechanization would be difficult.
>>
>>Right, given the fragility of strawberries
>
>you underestimate the power of bioscience: I can easily imagine
>genetically-altered strawberries the size of basket balls with a
>thick skin, so that they can be
>Yoshie Furuhashi says:
>>
>> It's best if ecosocialists focus on this aspect of the problem: toxic
>> chemicals endangering workers' health.
>
>Is this discussion taking account of the fundamentals?
>
>"If just the present world population of 5.8 billion people were to live at
>current North Am
> >It's the nature of capitalism not to allow everyone in the world "to
>>live at current North American ecological standards (say 4.5
> >ha/person)."
>>
>>Yoshie
>
>This is not exactly true. Even under socialism, it will not be possible to
>sustain the following practices:
>
>1. Limitless lives
>Yoshie writes:
>
>I'm simply saying that worrying about what will happen if everyone in
>the world gets to "to live at current North American ecological
>standards (say 4.5 ha/person)" under capitalism is _absurd_, since
>it's _not_ going to happen.
>
>=
>
>You forget the Veblenian point, how
>Regarding mechanization, the rise of the farm workers union caused
>the Univ. of
>Calif., Davis to invent the mechanical tomato picker and the hard tomato.
>--
>Michael Perelman
Exactly. Weak & cheap labor is a recipe for technological stagnation
& even deindustrialization, whereas strong & c
>Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
>
>> Weak & cheap labor is a recipe for technological stagnation
>> & even deindustrialization, whereas strong & costly labor pushes
>> capitalists to innovate
>
>I have tried to make this a constant theme in almost everything that I have
>written.
>
>Michael Perelman
mate Sergio, who found himself in one of Pinochet's concentration
> camps for criticising his regime, rather likes Sr. Castro's government.
>
> Again, I am aware that many countries, including this one, have placed
> restrictions on freedom of speech in emergency conditions.
Yoshie:
>I'm not presenting Cuba as a model, however attractive & promising
>its combination of organic agriculture & genetic engineering may be.
>I'm simply saying that one-dimensional opposition to genetic
>engineering (& science in general) is counter-productive. Genetic
>engineering can b
>Genetic engineering is not limited to agriculture -- it can be & has
>been used for production of medicines (in Cuba as well). As for
>genetic engineering in agriculture, it may be very well used to
>decrease the need for pesticides, irrigation, & chemical fertilizers.
>What's wrong with pur
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
>
> >
> Farming without industrial inputs & equipment tends to be very
> labor-intensive, often involving back-breaking labor for tilling,
> sowing, weeding, watering, & harvesting.
Speaking of what will be the nature of post-revolutionary agriculture
seems on the whol
>* Strawberry plants are four or five inches tall and grow from
>beds eight to twelve inches high. One must bend at the waist to pick
>the fruit, which explains why the job is so difficult. Bending over
>that way for an hour can cause a stiff back; doing so for ten to
>twelve hours a day
At 10:27 PM 06/27/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>>But mechanization would be difficult.
>
>Right, given the fragility of strawberries
you underestimate the power of bioscience: I can easily imagine
genetically-altered strawberries the size of basket balls with a thick
skin, so that they can be harvest
The farmers fought like hell to retain the short handled hoe in
California. They loved it because the workers had to stoop over to work.
As soon as they relaxed, they stood upright.
I have never seen anyone use such a tool except the Homng farmers who work
in my neighborhood. They must have par
>It's the nature of capitalism not to allow everyone in the world "to
>live at current North American ecological standards (say 4.5
>ha/person)."
>
>Yoshie
This is not exactly true. Even under socialism, it will not be possible to
sustain the following practices:
1. Limitless livestock breedin
Regarding mechanization, the rise of the farm workers union caused the Univ. of
Calif., Davis to invent the mechanical tomato picker and the hard tomato.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Chico, CA 95929
530-898-5321
fax 530-898-5901
I have tried to make this a constant theme in almost everything that I have
written.
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
> Weak & cheap labor is a recipe for technological stagnation
> & even deindustrialization, whereas strong & costly labor pushes
> capitalists to innovate
--
Michael Perelman
Economics
- Original Message -
From: Yoshie Furuhashi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 8:35 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:14188] Re: Cuban Genetic Engineering (was Jesse Lemisch)
> > >It's the nature of capitalism not to allow everyone in
Yoshie Furuhashi says:
>
> It's best if ecosocialists focus on this aspect of the problem: toxic
> chemicals endangering workers' health.
Is this discussion taking account of the fundamentals?
"If just the present world population of 5.8 billion people were to live at
current North American ecol
Wow. Genetic engineering of insulin using e coli goes against the basic
principles of soil chemistry.
No kidding. I didnt know that!
Cheers, Ken Hanly
- Original Message -
From: Louis Proyect <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Genetic engineering, along with pesticides, irrigation,
> chemical fertiliz
>Even from a long range perspective, eliminating the difference between
>city and country means industrializing (citifying) the country as well
>as 'ruralizing' the city.
>
>Carrol
Wrong.
Louis Proyect
Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org/
Farmers like workers to bend over. It makes it easy to spot who is
relaxing. If strawberries were grown in raised beds, like you see in some
greenhouses, little bending would be required. But mechanization would
be difficult.
Strawberries are very highly treated with pesticides and the fields
> At 10:27 PM 06/27/2001 -0400, you wrote:
> >>But mechanization would be difficult.
> >
> >Right, given the fragility of strawberries
>
> you underestimate the power of bioscience: I can easily imagine
> genetically-altered strawberries the size of basket balls with a
thick
> skin, so that the
+Friedland+UFW
- Original Message -
From: "Michael Perelman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 9:07 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:14222] Re: Re: Cuban Genetic Engineering (was Jesse Lemisch)
> Regarding mechanization, the rise of the farm wo
>Wow. Genetic engineering of insulin using e coli goes against the basic
>principles of soil chemistry.
>No kidding. I didnt know that!
>
>Cheers, Ken Hanly
No, it goes against the basic principles of ecology. Soil chemistry is
necessary to understand ecological problems. Many soil chemists, on
At 06:53 PM 06/26/2001 -0400, you wrote:
> >Even from a long range perspective, eliminating the difference between
> >city and country means industrializing (citifying) the country as well
> >as 'ruralizing' the city.
> >
> >Carrol
>
>Wrong.
this type of one-word dogmatic-seeming comment is a was
Michael Perelman wrote:
>
> Farmers like workers to bend over. It makes it easy to spot who is
> relaxing. If strawberries were grown in raised beds, like you see in some
> greenhouses, little bending would be required. But mechanization would
> be difficult.
It's been about 55 years since
Who is calling for a dieoff? People are warning about the future, not
applauding it.
On Thu, Jun 28, 2001 at 11:44:13AM -0400, Doug Henwood wrote:
>
> Dieoff indeed. At least Jay Hanson, like Dave Foreman, is honest
> about what he sees for the future of the human population. Tell us,
> Mark
Jim Devine wrote:
>BTW, I find it interesting that Louis is emulating Brad's style of
>meaningless response.
Though patronizing offers of reading lists are an innovation, don't you think?
Doug
>Incidentally, on the romanticization of agriculture. Biologically modern
>humans go back 100,000 years; agriculture 12,000 or so -- it's a late
>perversion, like writing. Industry, on the other hand, goes back several
>million years. And it is around industry, play, and moving about, not
>being s
> And it is around industry, play, and moving about, not
> being stuck like a slug on one plot of land, that human life ought to
> be organized. Agriculture by its nature is anti-human, and hence in a
> decent society would be radically sub-divided and spread out over the
> entire population, like
But you couldn't read all those marvelous fantasies Louis posts on Pen-L.
CHeers, Ken Hanly
- Original Message -
>
> You seem to be missing the whole point of what Michael Perelman called
> "self-provisioning" in precapitalist agrarian societies. Yes, the work was
> backbreaking but it
ld testify to the greater pleasure or at least
lesser pain associated with the latter.
Cheers, Ken Hardy aka Tom...
- Original Message -
From: Rob Schaap <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 9:01 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:14220] Re: Re: Re:
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