php-general Digest 11 Nov 2006 00:26:10 -0000 Issue 4452

Topics (messages 244464 through 244485):

PHP 5.0.5 and PHP-XML problem
        244464 by: Edd Dawson
        244466 by: Jochem Maas

Re: gethostbyname failing?
        244465 by: Henrik Hudson
        244470 by: Henrik Hudson

Re: Staff log-in
        244467 by: John Nichel
        244474 by: tedd
        244475 by: Dan McCullough
        244476 by: Jochem Maas
        244484 by: benifactor
        244485 by: Paul Novitski

Re: http_build_query ... argh
        244468 by: Arpad Ray
        244469 by: Jochem Maas

Re: Read Through PHP Files
        244471 by: Thomas Munz
        244472 by: Frank Arensmeier

Re: PHP, MySQL- Interested?
        244473 by: Rory Browne

problem with php[4,5] (horde 2/3)
        244477 by: Norbert Ehart

path
        244478 by: Alain Roger
        244479 by: Brad Fuller
        244480 by: Stut

pdo and mysql 5
        244481 by: jonathan
        244482 by: Curt Zirzow
        244483 by: Jon Anderson

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message ---
Hi

I have a problem getting PHP-XML working with PHP 5.0.5

I am trying to create an DOMDocument object with the following:

$doc = new DOMDocument();

when run i get the error:


*Fatal error*: Class 'DOMDocument' not found in *
/var/www/cinematimes.mobi/feed.php* on line *5

*I looked up that I need php-xml , so i try and install it on my Fedora 4
system by using yum or downloading rpm's and i always get the following
error:

Error: Missing Dependency: php = 5.0.4-10.5 is needed by package php-xml

So as it goes i can't find a version of php-xml i can install! Can anyone
help?

cheers
Edd

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Edd Dawson wrote:
> Hi
> 
> I have a problem getting PHP-XML working with PHP 5.0.5

I had trouble getting anything to work with that version ;-)
I suggest trying the version before or after it - seriously 5.0.5 has some
issues (although whether your problem is anything to do with them
is not known to me).

> 
> I am trying to create an DOMDocument object with the following:
> 
> $doc = new DOMDocument();
> 
> when run i get the error:
> 
> 
> *Fatal error*: Class 'DOMDocument' not found in *
> /var/www/cinematimes.mobi/feed.php* on line *5
> 
> *I looked up that I need php-xml , so i try and install it on my Fedora 4
> system by using yum or downloading rpm's and i always get the following
> error:
> 
> Error: Missing Dependency: php = 5.0.4-10.5 is needed by package php-xml
> 
> So as it goes i can't find a version of php-xml i can install! Can anyone
> help?
> 
> cheers
> Edd
> 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thursday 09 November 2006 21:28, Chris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent a missive 
stating: 
> Henrik Hudson wrote:
> > Thanks for the input everyone. It seems it Apache itself can't do lookups
> > either (ie: Hostnamelookups On  ..doesn't actually do anything..so, going
> > to hunt down the issues inside Apache...)
> >
> > funny thing is I've got a test server with the same exact port versions
> > and almost identical config files, so..I don't know...perl scripts and
> > php from the CLI work fine..so my actual DNS resolution is working
> > okay..just Apache is losing it somewhere...if anyone has some
> > thoughts..let me know :)
>
> Hostname lookups has *nothing* to do with this issue. It only affects
> apache.
> http://httpd.apache.org/docs/1.3/mod/core.html#hostnamelookups
>

Yeah, I know that. I was using it as another test. When I turn this "On", it 
doesn't actually perform the lookups and I still just got IP numbers in all 
my logs.

> As someone else mentioned, freebsd has issues with this stuff when it's
> running inside a chroot'ed environment.
>
> Are you running in a chroot'ed or selinux or anything like that?

Nope, no chroot's, jails or funky security levels.

Henrik
-- 
Henrik Hudson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
"God, root, what is difference?" Pitr; UF (http://www.userfriendly.org/)

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FYI: I uninstalled Apache 2.2.3 and installed Apache 1.3.x via ports and now 
everything works flawlessly. I made zero other changes on the system between 
working and not working, so there either is a bug or something "wierd".

I was running dnstop  and when asking the server to do "hostnamelookups on" or 
DNS lookups inside the php module is was generating 0 DNS requests to 
anywhere.

Now, with 1.3 installed dnstop is showing plenty of traffic.

\On Thursday 09 November 2006 15:27, Henrik Hudson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent a 
missive stating: 
> Hey List-
>
> running: apache 2.2, freebsd 6.2 and php 4.4.4
>
> I've got a wierd issue. I've got a script that does this:
>
> $domain = "www.google.com";
> $ip = gethostbyname($domain);
> echo $ip;
>
> $hostname = gethostbyaddr("72.14.205.99");
> echo $hostname;
>
>
> Using dig, ping, etc... to confirm name resolution is working works fine.
> Running that script from the CLI is fine (ie: php test.php). However, when
> running from the web it doesn't work.
>
> I tried it on a php 5.1.x box and it works fine there.
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
> Henrik
> --
> Henrik Hudson
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ------------------------------
> "God, root, what is difference?" Pitr; UF (http://www.userfriendly.org/)

-- 
Henrik Hudson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
"God, root, what is difference?" Pitr; UF (http://www.userfriendly.org/)

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jochem Maas wrote:
John Nichel wrote:
<snip>
5)  $80.00 is my *reduced* rate.

ah - I was worried you might have been factoring in age-related brain 
depreciation ;-)


If I factored that in, I'd have to pay the client.

--
John C. Nichel IV
Programmer/System Admin (ÜberGeek)
Dot Com Holdings of Buffalo
716.856.9675
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 7:16 PM +0000 11/9/06, Brynjar Guðnason wrote:
Hi,

I need a little php script. Staff log in by entering username and password
and then the next time they enter their username and password they log out.
The script has to take down the time they log in and log out. Then I should
be able to read old log-ins and log-outs.

I unfortunately can't make it myself because I don't have the knowledge, can
anyone of you do this for me? It's for a small non-profit orginisation.

Thanks in advance,
Brynjar Gudnason.

Brynjar:

You say a "little php script" -- if you have no knowledge of how to do this, then what makes you think it's little? Stop and think dude -- you're asking for code that will keep track of users, passwords, deal with what happens if they lose their password, keeping passwords secure, keeping track of times on/off, and writing an admin to review/edit times and edit users (add, delete, ban) --this is not a little script.

Lastly, I think we all know that "non-profit" simply means that at the end of the year you get to roll your profits over to the next year without incurring taxes on the excess. Nothing more.

Plus, there's no limit or requirements as to the amount/percentage you pay yourself as compared to what amounts you apply to your "cause". So, mentioning "non-profit" to me is like saying you're just another scam -- and one, who's trolling for free php services.

tedd

--
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I do a lot of work for "non-profits" a lot of them are really good
clients, pay well and on time, but I know most of them pretty well and
know that they are truly "non-profits", so just because you said you
were a non-profit where we supposed to assume that you wanted it for
free and supported forever.

On 11/10/06, tedd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
At 7:16 PM +0000 11/9/06, Brynjar Guðnason wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I need a little php script. Staff log in by entering username and password
>and then the next time they enter their username and password they log out.
>The script has to take down the time they log in and log out. Then I should
>be able to read old log-ins and log-outs.
>
>I unfortunately can't make it myself because I don't have the knowledge, can
>anyone of you do this for me? It's for a small non-profit orginisation.
>
>Thanks in advance,
>Brynjar Gudnason.

Brynjar:

You say a "little php script" -- if you have no
knowledge of how to do this, then what makes you
think it's little? Stop and think dude -- you're
asking for code that will keep track of users,
passwords, deal with what happens if they lose
their password, keeping passwords secure, keeping
track of times on/off, and writing an admin to
review/edit times and edit users (add, delete,
ban) --this is not a little script.

Lastly, I think we all know that "non-profit"
simply means that at the end of the year you get
to roll your profits over to the next year
without incurring taxes on the excess. Nothing
more.

Plus, there's no limit or requirements as to the
amount/percentage you pay yourself as compared to
what amounts you apply to your "cause". So,
mentioning "non-profit" to me is like saying
you're just another scam -- and one, who's
trolling for free php services.

tedd

--
-------
http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com

--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
tedd wrote:
> At 7:16 PM +0000 11/9/06, Brynjar Guðnason wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I need a little php script. Staff log in by entering username and
>> password
>> and then the next time they enter their username and password they log
>> out.
>> The script has to take down the time they log in and log out. Then I
>> should
>> be able to read old log-ins and log-outs.
>>
>> I unfortunately can't make it myself because I don't have the
>> knowledge, can
>> anyone of you do this for me? It's for a small non-profit orginisation.
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Brynjar Gudnason.
> 
> Brynjar:
> 
> You say a "little php script" -- if you have no knowledge of how to do
> this, then what makes you think it's little? Stop and think dude --
> you're asking for code that will keep track of users, passwords, deal
> with what happens if they lose their password, keeping passwords secure,
> keeping track of times on/off, and writing an admin to review/edit times
> and edit users (add, delete, ban) --this is not a little script.
> 
> Lastly, I think we all know that "non-profit" simply means that at the
> end of the year you get to roll your profits over to the next year
> without incurring taxes on the excess. Nothing more.
> 
> Plus, there's no limit or requirements as to the amount/percentage you
> pay yourself as compared to what amounts you apply to your "cause". So,
> mentioning "non-profit" to me is like saying you're just another scam --
> and one, who's trolling for free php services.

it's a pity you pointed that out Tedd, I was about to post something along the 
lines of...

        "I am non-profit person looking for a 'little girl' aged 18+"

I guess it's no longer worth the effort given that you let the cat out of the 
bag! ;-)

bootnote: mercy **ck - either a reference to my perverted comment above OR
a 'little php script' written free of charge for a NPO; depending on what you 
think
the **'s are hiding

> 
> tedd
> 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- i actually just started my own non profit org... so now you can all give me things for free. :)

p.s. i also accept donations via paypal :)
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jochem Maas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "tedd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <php-general@lists.php.net>
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 7:46 AM
Subject: Re: [PHP] Staff log-in


tedd wrote:
At 7:16 PM +0000 11/9/06, Brynjar Guðnason wrote:
Hi,

I need a little php script. Staff log in by entering username and
password
and then the next time they enter their username and password they log
out.
The script has to take down the time they log in and log out. Then I
should
be able to read old log-ins and log-outs.

I unfortunately can't make it myself because I don't have the
knowledge, can
anyone of you do this for me? It's for a small non-profit orginisation.

Thanks in advance,
Brynjar Gudnason.

Brynjar:

You say a "little php script" -- if you have no knowledge of how to do
this, then what makes you think it's little? Stop and think dude --
you're asking for code that will keep track of users, passwords, deal
with what happens if they lose their password, keeping passwords secure,
keeping track of times on/off, and writing an admin to review/edit times
and edit users (add, delete, ban) --this is not a little script.

Lastly, I think we all know that "non-profit" simply means that at the
end of the year you get to roll your profits over to the next year
without incurring taxes on the excess. Nothing more.

Plus, there's no limit or requirements as to the amount/percentage you
pay yourself as compared to what amounts you apply to your "cause". So,
mentioning "non-profit" to me is like saying you're just another scam --
and one, who's trolling for free php services.

it's a pity you pointed that out Tedd, I was about to post something along the lines of...

"I am non-profit person looking for a 'little girl' aged 18+"

I guess it's no longer worth the effort given that you let the cat out of the bag! ;-)

bootnote: mercy **ck - either a reference to my perverted comment above OR
a 'little php script' written free of charge for a NPO; depending on what you think
the **'s are hiding


tedd


--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11/10/2006 07:09 AM, tedd wrote:
Lastly, I think we all know that "non-profit" simply means that at the end of the year you get to roll your profits over to the next year without incurring taxes on the excess. Nothing more.

Plus, there's no limit or requirements as to the amount/percentage you pay yourself as compared to what amounts you apply to your "cause". So, mentioning "non-profit" to me is like saying you're just another scam -- and one, who's trolling for free php services.


My, aren't we grumpy! What big bad non-profit organization rained on your parade?

One of the many things that distinguishes non-profit organizations [1] from for-profit businesses is that, because they don't generate a profit [2] and are not permitted to pay out dividends, they don't attract financial investors. Most non-profits are therefore dependent on donations and grants. The financial downturn in recent years has decimated granting foundations which have been forced to reduce their grants to a small fraction of their previous funding levels and stopped granting entirely in many sectors and geographical areas. Non-profit organizations that are attempting to make positive change in areas where there is little or no short-term capitalistic reward, such as health, education, and environmental protection, have fallen on very hard times. I urge you not to be so suspicious of nor antagonistic toward a purported non-profit until you check them out, as do the grantors, to make sure their cause is true and their administrators are really wearing patched and shabby clothing and that their children are going hungry as signs of their honesty. After all, if you're doing good work in the world, you aren't allowed a decent wage; it's only people working for their own profit who can eat well without criticism.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonprofit
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profit

In the meantime, I suppose it is emblematic of my own innocence that it always surprises me when someone asks a naive question and is answered by insults and jeers in a listserve composed of bright and knowledgeable people who have purportedly come together for mutual education. There may be no such thing as a stupid question, but the same cannot be said of the range of possible answers.

Had the original poster known enough about our field to ask for recommendations of open source solutions, would he have been treated so roughly?

He didn't, by the way, ask for anything for free.  He said,
I unfortunately can't make it myself because I don't have the knowledge, can
anyone of you do this for me?

When no mention of remuneration has been made, why do you assume none will be forthcoming? Is this how you greet all prospective clients, non-profit or otherwise, who approach you asking for help? Are we to assume that this indicates your innate curiosity, your desire to gain clients, your ability to negotiate, your willingness to devote yourself to a good cause, or your capacity for politeness?

On the surface you appear defend your right to be paid for your work (as though anyone had demanded otherwise!), but I would be very surprised if the OP considered for a moment hiring any self-proclaimed professional who replied so harshly to his query.

Regards,
Paul

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jochem Maas wrote:
Arpad Ray wrote:
return preg_replace('#%5[bd](?=[^&]*=)#ei', 'urldecode("\0")', $s);
could you explain your regexp - I'd like to replace my version with
your (if for no other reason than that shorter code is easier to read than
longer code!) BUT until I really understand your regexp I'd feel 100% 
comfortable
making the replacement.
Basically, if we find a '=' before a '&' then we know we're in the key.
The (?=) is a positive assertion, which says that the bracket must be followed by a '=', optionally with any characters except '&' in between.
Here's the pattern with comments:

~
   %5[bd]      # the bracket
   (?=         # must be followed by
       [^&]*   # any characters except "&"
       =       # then a "="
   )
~eix

Regards,

Arpad

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Arpad Ray wrote:
> Jochem Maas wrote:
>> Arpad Ray wrote:
>>> return preg_replace('#%5[bd](?=[^&]*=)#ei', 'urldecode("\0")', $s);
>>>     
>> could you explain your regexp - I'd like to replace my version with
>> your (if for no other reason than that shorter code is easier to read
>> than
>> longer code!) BUT until I really understand your regexp I'd feel 100%
>> comfortable
>> making the replacement.
>>   
> Basically, if we find a '=' before a '&' then we know we're in the key.
> The (?=) is a positive assertion, which says that the bracket must be

ah yes - the look ahead assertion was throwing me.

> followed by a '=', optionally with any characters except '&' in between.
> Here's the pattern with comments:
> 
> ~
>    %5[bd]      # the bracket
>    (?=         # must be followed by
>        [^&]*   # any characters except "&"
>        =       # then a "="
>    )
> ~eix
> 

thanks very much for the explanation!

> Regards,
> 
> Arpad
> 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
 You cannnot just open those files. That things that you see are not
 'rubish' or whatever. Those files are in a binary format. You need to
 understand the .doc format and the .pdf format. You can get this
 infromation by using google and search for 'Binary word format' and so on.
 Then you have to parse the file with the HEX codes etc and so on. This is
 pretty complex and I'm sure you dont wanna do that :D. Maybe there is
 allready a libary also in PHP that does it for you.

 But in generaly, you have to think in a different way. If you dont
 unserstand what binary formats are and how to parse them, its pretty hard
 and its better if you dont try it :)

 on Friday 10 November 2006 11:55, Kevin wrote:
 > Hi,
 >
 > I am using the function fopen to open a word document, loading the
 > contents into a variable and then using a substr_count to count the
 > number of times a certain string is found, this is allowing me to search
 > through the file and say how many times the word appears, I can even use
 > str_replace to highlight certain words. However Microsoft word seems to
 > put a lot of rubbish in the header and footer, I am wondering is it
 > possible to filter this rubbish out to get the exact document.
 >
 > I also tried using fopen to open a PDF file, but as PDF is handled
 > differently it came up completely different with no words at all, just
 > full of rubbish. Is there anyway I can get this information using a
 > simple fopen?
 >
 > I am basically trying to create a search engine which can read within
 > files similar to google. The only problem I would have after I have done
 > all this is actually weighting the search results, however I would
 > probably have to create the results first and then finally go through
 > the results to try to weight them.
 >
 > Does anyone else have any experience in this or could help me out with
 > any of the problems I am having?
 >
 > Thanks
 >
 > Kevin

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are search engins written in PHP available already. E.g. PHPdig.

http://www.phpdig.net/

PHPdig for example is able to index PDF and doc files (I think - see the docs). Maybe it would also be a good idea to have a look at the source code.

/frank

/frank
10 nov 2006 kl. 14.50 skrev Thomas Munz:

 You cannnot just open those files. That things that you see are not
 'rubish' or whatever. Those files are in a binary format. You need to
 understand the .doc format and the .pdf format. You can get this
infromation by using google and search for 'Binary word format' and so on. Then you have to parse the file with the HEX codes etc and so on. This is
 pretty complex and I'm sure you dont wanna do that :D. Maybe there is
 allready a libary also in PHP that does it for you.

 But in generaly, you have to think in a different way. If you dont
unserstand what binary formats are and how to parse them, its pretty hard
 and its better if you dont try it :)

 on Friday 10 November 2006 11:55, Kevin wrote:
Hi,

I am using the function fopen to open a word document, loading the
contents into a variable and then using a substr_count to count the
number of times a certain string is found, this is allowing me to search through the file and say how many times the word appears, I can even use str_replace to highlight certain words. However Microsoft word seems to
put a lot of rubbish in the header and footer, I am wondering is it
possible to filter this rubbish out to get the exact document.

I also tried using fopen to open a PDF file, but as PDF is handled
differently it came up completely different with no words at all, just
full of rubbish. Is there anyway I can get this information using a
simple fopen?

I am basically trying to create a search engine which can read within
files similar to google. The only problem I would have after I have done
all this is actually weighting the search results, however I would
probably have to create the results first and then finally go through
the results to try to weight them.

Does anyone else have any experience in this or could help me out with
any of the problems I am having?

Thanks

Kevin

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To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I fully endorse this as a project for  you to learn php better. Having
a project is the only way you'll learn.

Keep in mind however that there are already frameworks which do the same thing.

Check out cakePHP, or php on trax - the former AFAIK has better docs.

On 11/10/06, John Sladek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello,

I'm looking for people that like messing around with PHP and MySql.  I've started a 
project to help myself learn more about PHP, MySql.  The program basically takes 
database infomation (username, password, database name and location) as input and 
then uses that info to create php scripts to handle the basic functions of Create, 
Remove, Update & Display for each table. Basically 1 script per table in the 
database.  Also the program builds a little Application framework too.   The script 
function both inside the Application and also stand alone.

Keep in mind I am a beginner @ this stuff and this project is in it's beginning 
stages... I'm just looking for feedback.....  I think it rocks but I am Biased
http://www.iobe.net/proj/


Regards,
John Sladek


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hello,

i have some problem with horde, after my isp have upgraded php on my vps! i only get some error massages.


Notice: Only variable references should be returned by reference in /usr/share/horde3/lib/Horde/Perms.php on line 343

Notice: Only variable references should be returned by reference in /usr/share/horde3/lib/Horde/Auth.php on line 1193

Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /usr/share/horde3/lib/Horde/Perms.php:343) in /usr/share/horde3/index.php on line 51


if anybody has an idee, please let me that know!




thanks,
   norbert.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,

How can i get the path in which a PHP file is running ?

for example, user clicking on a link opened page  "action.php" file.
this php file is located as "C:\webserver\mywebsite\php\test\action.php"

how can i get this path (C:\webserver\mywebsite\php\test\)?

thx.
Al.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alain Roger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 1:48 PM
> To: PHP General List
> Subject: [PHP] path
> 
> Hi,
> 
> How can i get the path in which a PHP file is running ?
> 
> for example, user clicking on a link opened page  "action.php" file.
> this php file is located as "C:\webserver\mywebsite\php\test\action.php"
> 
> how can i get this path (C:\webserver\mywebsite\php\test\)?
> 
> thx.
> Al.

You should be able to do some string functions on
$_SERVER["SCRIPT_FILENAME"] to get it.

-B

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Alain Roger wrote:
How can i get the path in which a PHP file is running ?

for example, user clicking on a link opened page  "action.php" file.
this php file is located as "C:\webserver\mywebsite\php\test\action.php"

how can i get this path (C:\webserver\mywebsite\php\test\)?

$dir = dirname(__FILE__);

-Stut

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I know that PDO has drivers only for MySQL 3/4. Is anybody getting it work with MySQL 5. I'd like to try out the Zend Framework but our db uses MySQL 5. We could create a second db in 4.1 and run it with that but I'd rather not to.

It's kinda surprising how long MySQL 5 has been out and these drivers don't exist.

-jonathan

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 11/10/06, jonathan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I know that PDO has drivers only for MySQL 3/4. Is anybody  getting
it work with MySQL 5. I'd like to try out the Zend Framework but our
db uses MySQL 5. We could create a second db in 4.1 and run it with
that  but I'd rather not to.

It's kinda surprising how long MySQL 5 has been out and these drivers
don't exist.

You just need to compile pdo_mysql against your mysql5 client
libraries, it works fine for me.

./configure --with-pdo-mysql=/path/to/mysql5/install/

Curt.

--- End Message ---
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jonathan wrote:
I know that PDO has drivers only for MySQL 3/4. Is anybody getting it work with MySQL 5. I'd like to try out the Zend Framework but our db uses MySQL 5. We could create a second db in 4.1 and run it with that but I'd rather not to.

It's kinda surprising how long MySQL 5 has been out and these drivers don't exist.
PDO works fine with MySQL 5. I've been using PHP5.1/PDO with MySQL 5 for quite some time, and recently PHP5.2/PDO with MySQL 5. I'm using it for an AJAX app for work, and a high-performance web log system for personal use. I haven't had any problems so far.

A superficial look at the docs only says 3/4, but from experimental evidence, 5 seems fine.

jon

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