On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:11:13 -0600, "Gabriel Gunderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
said:
> On Fri, 2005-08-12 at 06:02 -0700, Jonathan Ellis wrote:
> > Shrug... There's a few things in C# that make me think, "what the
> > hell?" but that's not one of them.
>
> What are they?
It's a short list. C# is a
On Fri, 2005-08-12 at 06:02 -0700, Jonathan Ellis wrote:
> Shrug... There's a few things in C# that make me think, "what the
> hell?" but that's not one of them.
What are they?
Gabe
.---.
| This has been a P.L.U.G. mailing. |
| Don't Fear the Penguin. |
On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 02:31:00 -0600, "Doran Barton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
said:
>
> > Strictly on the language side,
> >you're right. C# is Java with a couple
> >years of perspective on what worked and what didn't.
>
> Yeah. I love how M$'s "perspective" included adding an 'unsafe' pragma.
> Hah!
> Strictly on the language side,
>you're right. C# is Java with a couple
>years of perspective on what worked and what didn't.
Yeah. I love how M$'s "perspective" included adding an 'unsafe' pragma. Hah!
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] is Doran Barton, president, Iodynamics
[This msg sent with a PalmONE
On 8/11/05, Stuart Jansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Java 5ux0rz d00d!!!
Ha ha. Thanks Stuart, I needed that :).
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| This has been a P.L.U.G. mailing. |
| Don't Fear the Penguin. |
| IRC: #utah at irc
On 8/11/05, Michael Halcrow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I learned Java as my very first OO language back in '96, so it holds a
> special place in my heart as my first OO love. It has since been
> replaced by a younger, more sexy O'Caml. My primary complaint about
> Java is the fact that it seems a
On Thursday 11 August 2005 09:32 am, Grant Robinson wrote:
> While we are on the subject, what I really miss is punch cards. Who
> was the idiot who came up with typing a program into an editor and then
> compiling and running it? Sure it's fast, but what if your computer
> crashes and your hard
On Thu, 2005-08-11 at 09:32 -0600, Grant Robinson wrote:
> While we are on the subject, what I really miss is punch cards. Who
> was the idiot who came up with typing a program into an editor and then
> compiling and running it? Sure it's fast, but what if your computer
> crashes and your h
On Thu, Aug 11, 2005 at 01:11:50PM -0600, Erich Pletsch wrote:
> There is absolutely no vendor lock-in with Java.
I learned Java as my very first OO language back in '96, so it holds a
special place in my heart as my first OO love. It has since been
replaced by a younger, more sexy O'Caml. My prim
Jonathan:
I hope that you can forgive my bizzarly de-paragraphed text in the
last email. Thunderbird seems to have mangled the email formatting on
that last one.
I guess the real issue at hand centers around which programming
language and framework is the best for creating a web
And it's also all in the process of being open sourced.
Bryan Sant wrote:
On 8/11/05, Michael Torrie [1]<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
This one is an interesting one. Although there are lots of j2ee
compliant containers and servers, it's all, under the hood, Sun Java.
So you can pick whateve
On 8/11/05, Michael Torrie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This one is an interesting one. Although there are lots of j2ee
> compliant containers and servers, it's all, under the hood, Sun Java.
> So you can pick whatever vendor you want, so long as it is Sun.
> Obviously there are now finally VMs th
On Thursday 11 August 2005 12:48 pm, Dennis wrote:
> Perhaps a good discussion from here would entail which technologies have
> these features.. or how to obtain these features with different
> technologies. For instance, we've already heard about
> apache+struts+jboss+etc. etc Yes, Walmart,
> Perhaps a good discussion from here would entail which
> technologies have these features.. or how to obtain these
> features with different technologies. For instance, we've
> already heard about
> apache+struts+jboss+etc. etc Yes, Walmart, Ebay and others use
> Java. There are some pr
On Thu, 2005-08-11 at 12:36 -0600, Bryan Sant wrote:
> * No vedor-lockin - can an enterprise migrate to another vedor (or OSS
> solution) easily?
This one is an interesting one. Although there are lots of j2ee
compliant containers and servers, it's all, under the hood, Sun Java.
So you can pick w
Bryan Sant wrote:
>On 8/11/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>>>If we avoid the trap of equating "enterprise class" with
>>>J2EE, then yes, Spyce is enterprise-class. I'm sure I could
>>>design a site to serve a million db-backed pages per day from
>>>a single server (http +
On 8/11/05, Josh Coates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >What is the exact definition of "Enterprise-class"?
>
> it means:
>
> "costs lots more than it should"
> "has lots of check boxes on the feature list"
> "may require a consultant to implement it"
> "is sold by a sales rep that gets commission"
Charles Curley wrote:
>On Thu, Aug 11, 2005 at 01:52:07PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>
>
>>I've never really understood the definition of "Enterprise-class"
>>either. I think it means being extremely scalable, the ability to span
>>across multiple servers in multiple locations (geographi
On 8/11/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > If we avoid the trap of equating "enterprise class" with
> > J2EE, then yes, Spyce is enterprise-class. I'm sure I could
> > design a site to serve a million db-backed pages per day from
> > a single server (http +
> > db) in Spyce, beca
Bryan Sant wrote:
>with it. I would say that Struts/JSF+Axis+Spring+Hibernate is the
>most simple yet capable approach to enterprise software available.
>
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. As I was mentioning
earlier, I can do pretty much everything those libraries do with a few
simpl
On Thu, Aug 11, 2005 at 01:52:07PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> I've never really understood the definition of "Enterprise-class"
> either. I think it means being extremely scalable, the ability to span
> across multiple servers in multiple locations (geographically), and the
> ability fo
On Thu, Aug 11, 2005 at 09:32:45AM -0600, Grant Robinson wrote:
>
>
> P.S. If you didn't at least smile when you read the preceding
> paragraphs, call the police and let them know someone stole your sense
> of humor.
Oh, drat. And I was going to write an email in support.
And talk about h
n personal definitions. bah.
Josh Coates
www.jcoates.org
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 11:52 AM
To: plug@plug.org
Subject: "Enterprise-class" (was RE: Struts, Spring, Tapestry, oh
On 8/10/05, Jonathan Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Fantastic. Meanwhile, Microsoft continues to eat Sun's lunch by
> providing solutions that
The market statistics I've show would suggest otherwise. Dispiste you
so predictably falling for the Microsoft marketing machine, and
assuming that b
> If we avoid the trap of equating "enterprise class" with
> J2EE, then yes, Spyce is enterprise-class. I'm sure I could
> design a site to serve a million db-backed pages per day from
> a single server (http +
> db) in Spyce, because I've already built one in another
> interpreted language (T
On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:51:27 -0600, "Erich Pletsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
said:
>What's your idea of simple?
This is about all I could make out in your bizzarly de-paragraphed
text. But I think it's your main point, so I'll run with it.
"My idea of simple" boils down to the unix philosophy of
TECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Erich Pletsch
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 9:51 AM
To: Provo Linux Users Group Mailing List
Subject: Re: Struts, Spring, Tapestry, oh my!
Jonathan Ellis wrote:
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 17:58:00 -0600, "Erich Pletsch" [1]<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Jonathan Ellis wrote:
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 17:58:00 -0600, "Erich Pletsch" [1]<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
said:
If you prefer simple, but have a bunch of Java developers at your
disposal, consider JSF.
Man. Twice in one day, I'm marveling at how huge the gap betwen
"Jonathan simple" and "J2EE simp
On Aug 11, 2005, at 8:54 AM, Dennis wrote:
Jonathan Ellis wrote:
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 17:58:00 -0600, "Erich Pletsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
said:
If you prefer simple, but have a bunch of Java developers at your
disposal, consider JSF.
Man. Twice in one day, I'm marveling at how huge the gap
On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 08:54:42 -0600, "Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
said:
> Jonathan Ellis wrote:
> >Man. Twice in one day, I'm marveling at how huge the gap betwen
> >"Jonathan simple" and "J2EE simple" appears to be. It's like I'm living
> >in some kind of parallel universe.
> >
> >Here's one exam
Jonathan Ellis wrote:
>On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 17:58:00 -0600, "Erich Pletsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>said:
>
>
>>If you prefer simple, but have a bunch of Java developers at your
>>disposal, consider JSF.
>>
>>
>
>Man. Twice in one day, I'm marveling at how huge the gap betwen
>"Jonathan simple
> So I took a look for Catalyst and found their home page.
> Ironically the catalyst home page is being served up by a
> python-driven CMS.
Wow - they've really added a lot to the previous website - I'm
impressed. I never said Catalyst wasn't new. In fact, it's very new,
and so is Maypole, wh
> First, you mean Ruby on Rails above, not Ruby. Ruby is to
> Perl as Rails is to Catalyst. Although Ruby is only recently
> getting a lot of attention (due, in large part, to the Rails
> hype), it is a mature language with a broad and deep community.
I apologize - wrote that too quick. I mean
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 23:07:24 -0600, "Barry Roberts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
said:
> On Wed, Aug 10, 2005 at 04:45:50PM -0600, Bryan Sant wrote:
> > I totally agree. Java sucks. I mean, why would you want to use Java
> > anyway?
>
> The "java sucks" lament is especially amusing from the
> C#/CLR/.NET
On Wed, Aug 10, 2005 at 04:45:50PM -0600, Bryan Sant wrote:
> I totally agree. Java sucks. I mean, why would you want to use Java
> anyway?
The "java sucks" lament is especially amusing from the
C#/CLR/.NET/Mono people. If java is so bad, how could something so
similar be so cool?
I like C#/Mo
On Wed, 2005-08-10 at 19:04 -0700, Jonathan Ellis wrote:
> You mean Trac? I'd hardly call that a CMS, but you're right about the
> irony. :)
We've built a project/issue/wiki tracking site out of Trac and I must
say that I'm *very* impressed. A very fine product. Nothing better
than having bug r
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 17:58:00 -0600, "Erich Pletsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
said:
> If you prefer simple, but have a bunch of Java developers at your
> disposal, consider JSF.
Man. Twice in one day, I'm marveling at how huge the gap betwen
"Jonathan simple" and "J2EE simple" appears to be. It's lik
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:53:55 -0600, "Michael Torrie"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> On Wed, 2005-08-10 at 13:58 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Are you looking for just JSP/Servlets or other languages as well? I've
> > only used Struts and enjoyed that. If you don't mind other languages,
> > befo
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:37:49 -0600, "Michael Torrie"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> This whole weird drug dependency on xml files is one of the main things
> that drives me away from anything Java. It's so bad and very confusing
> and not very readable either. It only gets worse when you need to mix
On Wed, 2005-08-10 at 13:58 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Are you looking for just JSP/Servlets or other languages as well? I've
> only used Struts and enjoyed that. If you don't mind other languages,
> before anyone mentions Ruby on Rails, I highly recommend Perl's Catalyst
> framework. See
On Wed, 2005-08-10 at 14:20 -0600, Dennis wrote:
> Dennis wrote:
>
> >Just for reference.. I just typed this on a Struts/Tiles project I
> >programmed:
> >
> >cat `find src -name '*.xml'` | wc -l
> >13439
> >
> >
> To be fair, some of that was in articles, support, other resources,
> etc. Also,
On Wed, 2005-08-10 at 13:47 -0600, Al Byers wrote:
> Thanks, I haven't had an opportunity to plug Open for Business
> (http://www.ofbiz.org) for some time now. OFBiz is really two things -
> an innovative framework for developing applications and a suite of
> quality ERP modules (strong e-commer
On 8/10/05, Jonathan Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Oooh! Proof by popularity! I think I know this one! That's the one
> that prooves that Windows is the best OS, right?
No. I will hold Windows to the same standard. Again let's consult Dice.com:
# of UNIX jobs - 11263
# of Windows Server
Kimball:
If you prefer simple, but have a bunch of Java developers at your
disposal, consider JSF.
JSF is a relatively new standard that is being highly touted by Sun
Microsystems. They hired the creators of Struts to create the JSF
standard and to help write the reference framework. Pleas
On 8/10/05, Doran Barton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm not sure what this proves. I wonder how this breaks down by project.
> Could it be that 42 Ruby programmers can do the work of 11893 Java
> programmers? :)
It proves that A) Java is ubber popular and B) Java is in high demand.
For better o
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:45:50 -0600, "Bryan Sant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
said:
> On 8/10/05, Stuart Jansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > right along to Java users, they're clinically depressed. Friends don't
> > let friends use Java.
> >
> > The best choice between A) Struts B) Spring & C) Tapestry i
Bryan Sant wrote:
Do I need to post another Dice.com job
status update? I think I do:
# of Java jobs - 11893
# of C++ jobs - 6602
# of Perl jobs - 3642
# of C# jobs - 3386
# of PHP jobs - 651
# of Python jobs - 365
# of Ruby jobs - 42
I'm not sure what this proves. I wonder how this breaks do
On 8/10/05, Nicholas Leippe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Now, try and get some stats on the compensation levels for jobs in the
> different languages. That may shed some light as to why 'D' isn't such a bad
> idea.
>
> In my (limited) experience and samplings:
>
> commodity language/skill == low
On Wednesday 10 August 2005 04:45 pm, Bryan Sant wrote:
> # of Java jobs - 11893
> # of C++ jobs - 6602
> # of Perl jobs - 3642
> # of C# jobs - 3386
> # of PHP jobs - 651
> # of Python jobs - 365
> # of Ruby jobs - 42
>
> Please apply the laws of supply and demand and come up with your own
> concl
On 8/10/05, Stuart Jansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> right along to Java users, they're clinically depressed. Friends don't
> let friends use Java.
>
> The best choice between A) Struts B) Spring & C) Tapestry is
> D) update your resume and find a better job.
Sigh. More of the "d00d, java is f
Kimball Larsen wrote:
>
> On Aug 10, 2005, at 4:23 PM, Jonathan Ellis wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:29:50 -0600, "Bryan Sant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> said:
>>
>>> You need to use XDoclet or Java 5 annotations. You only maintain Java
>>> source files (who happen to have to struts config embe
Kimball Larsen wrote:
On Aug 10, 2005, at 4:23 PM, Jonathan Ellis wrote:
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:29:50 -0600, "Bryan Sant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
said:
You need to use XDoclet or Java 5 annotations. You only maintain Java
source files (who happen to have to struts config embedded). It
reall
On Aug 10, 2005, at 4:23 PM, Jonathan Ellis wrote:
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:29:50 -0600, "Bryan Sant"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
said:
You need to use XDoclet or Java 5 annotations. You only maintain
Java
source files (who happen to have to struts config embedded). It
really is simple.
Mostly
Bryan Sant wrote:
>On 8/10/05, Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>>I've used xdoclet for hibernate and tried it with Struts. The
>>application used a lot of things that xdoclet didn't support. Perhaps
>>that has changed since I wrote it. The point I was trying to make is
>>that some frame
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:29:50 -0600, "Bryan Sant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
said:
> You need to use XDoclet or Java 5 annotations. You only maintain Java
> source files (who happen to have to struts config embedded). It
> really is simple.
Mostly for my own amusement, I'd like to take this space to not
On 8/10/05, Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I've used xdoclet for hibernate and tried it with Struts. The
> application used a lot of things that xdoclet didn't support. Perhaps
> that has changed since I wrote it. The point I was trying to make is
> that some frameworks don't have to mess w
On Wed, 2005-08-10 at 15:35 -0600, Jacob Fugal wrote:
> [Disclaimer: I'm not saying the PHP Fuse or Catalyst communities don't
> have the strengths of the Rails communities, Rails is simply the one I
> have experience with]
I am. Ruby users are generally happy, sometimes even serene. PHP users
hav
On 8/10/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > IMHO Struts is really the best way to go, you have a WAY more
> > active, enthusiastic, as well as experienced community to draw upon.
>
> Agreed - if you are going to need community support and involvement then
> the older MVC models
> On 8/10/05, Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Dennis wrote:
>> To be fair, some of that was in articles, support, other resources,
>> etc. Also, the project uses Hibernate and that has it's own fair share
>> of xml. There are still 3 or 4 thousand lines of Struts/Tiles xml
>> though.
>
> Bu
On 8/10/05, Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://jamesholmes.com/struts/
>
> It works ok and edits just fine, but you still have to wade through the
> information and search around when you want to change something. Want
> to delete a page? Can't just delete the page, you have to find the
Bryan Sant wrote:
>On 8/10/05, Grant Shipley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>>On 8/10/05, Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Dennis wrote:
>>>To be fair, some of that was in articles, support, other resources,
>>>etc. Also, the project uses Hibernate and that has it's own fair share
On 8/10/05, Grant Shipley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 8/10/05, Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Dennis wrote:
> > To be fair, some of that was in articles, support, other resources,
> > etc. Also, the project uses Hibernate and that has it's own fair share
> > of xml. There are still 3 o
> IMHO Struts is really the best way to go, you have a WAY more
> active, enthusiastic, as well as experienced community to draw upon.
Agreed - if you are going to need community support and involvement then
the older MVC models are the way to go. Ruby, Catalyst, PHP's Fusebox,
etc. all don't
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Can you mention some of the reasons you like Catalyst more than Rails?
-Dennis
I just don't like Rails because everyone is hyping it as a "the next and
best new thing", whereas MVC-based framework models have been around for
awhile. To tell you the truth I haven
> Can you mention some of the reasons you like Catalyst more than Rails?
>
> -Dennis
I just don't like Rails because everyone is hyping it as a "the next and
best new thing", whereas MVC-based framework models have been around for
awhile. To tell you the truth I haven't tried it yet so I can't g
Grant Shipley wrote:
>On 8/10/05, Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>>Dennis wrote:
>>To be fair, some of that was in articles, support, other resources,
>>etc. Also, the project uses Hibernate and that has it's own fair share
>>of xml. There are still 3 or 4 thousand lines of Struts/Tiles
On 8/10/05, Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dennis wrote:
> To be fair, some of that was in articles, support, other resources,
> etc. Also, the project uses Hibernate and that has it's own fair share
> of xml. There are still 3 or 4 thousand lines of Struts/Tiles xml though.
But hopefully y
Thanks, I haven't had an opportunity to plug Open for Business
(http://www.ofbiz.org) for some time now. OFBiz is really two things -
an innovative framework for developing applications and a suite of
quality ERP modules (strong e-commerce, back office and manufacturing).
It is java based, but
Dennis wrote:
>Just for reference.. I just typed this on a Struts/Tiles project I
>programmed:
>
>cat `find src -name '*.xml'` | wc -l
>13439
>
>
To be fair, some of that was in articles, support, other resources,
etc. Also, the project uses Hibernate and that has it's own fair share
of xml. T
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Are you looking for just JSP/Servlets or other languages as well? I've
>only used Struts and enjoyed that. If you don't mind other languages,
>before anyone mentions Ruby on Rails, I highly recommend Perl's Catalyst
>framework. See the PLUG archives for the links I post
Grant Shipley wrote:
>I would learn Struts. It seems to me that most job posting nowadays
>want some Struts experience.
>
>
Thats because 3 years ago, they all programmed their applications in
Struts and they need people to maintain them. Struts is quick to get
things out the door but a pain t
I would learn Struts. It seems to me that most job posting nowadays
want some Struts experience.
.---.
| This has been a P.L.U.G. mailing. |
| Don't Fear the Penguin. |
| IRC: #utah at irc.freenode.net |
`---'
On 8/10/05, Kimball Larsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So, I would like to broaden my horizons...
>
> I have heard of a few major frameworks for use in jsp applications,
> but have not yet really had time to investigate/learn any of them.
>
> What do pluggers recommend?
>
> I come from a WebObj
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:41:32 -0600, "Kimball Larsen"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> I have heard of a few major frameworks for use in jsp applications,
> but have not yet really had time to investigate/learn any of them.
>
> What do pluggers recommend?
>
> I come from a WebObjects background, so I
We are looking to stick with JSP/Servlets for now.
Thanks!
-- Kimball
On Aug 10, 2005, at 11:58 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Are you looking for just JSP/Servlets or other languages as well? I've
only used Struts and enjoyed that. If you don't mind other languages,
before anyone mentio
Are you looking for just JSP/Servlets or other languages as well? I've
only used Struts and enjoyed that. If you don't mind other languages,
before anyone mentions Ruby on Rails, I highly recommend Perl's Catalyst
framework. See the PLUG archives for the links I posted.
Jesse
> -Original Me
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