Part of me really would enjoy setting something like this
up. The new High speed and dedicated wireless/microwave
tools we have now are pretty dang phenomenal and could lead
to a decent wireless/wired hybrid internet service.
On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 12:19 PM Michael Butash via
PLUG-discuss <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
<mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:
I'm not sure I could live somewhere with crap internet,
I would probably go about forming some sort of local isp
of sorts if enough folks around to be worth it. It's
not exactly hard, backward telcos and cable companies
can figure it out, it's all capital cost up front and
who pays for it, ideally more than just you.
Circa 2003 at cox business, we had some baller customers
with DS3's to their house (one ran an isp in his
basement), which really meant we installed an OC3 fiber
node there, and gave them a third of it. These were
maybe $2000-3000/mo circuits, but the construction to
get fiber to their crib alone might be $30-50k. One
customer in the middle of a lake community was more to
build into. Either they lock you into a 5yr or more
contract to make that construction cost back, or you pay
it up front.
Back then, I worked a lot with the project group that
did construction, so I sat down with someone and we
looked at getting fiber to my house for some baller
service myself, ideally with some employee discount...
They estimated roughly $35k in cost alone for
construction, including construction street cuts to bury
fiber, permitting, etc, let alone service, and mine
wasn't terribly complex. I considered reselling to
neighbors, but back then expensive gigabit options
probably weren't too attractive to general consumers in
2003. I stuck with my cable modem, they didn't pay that
well.
Today that would probably be equivalent to a 10GbE+ drop
to your house, but at scale of cost most likely. Resell
that to your neighbors for some premium bandwidth,
everyone wins, but presumes your neighbors aren't all
luddites. Some rural communities are doing this, when
AT&T and others aren't shutting them down.
-mb
On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 9:19 AM Bob Elzer via
PLUG-discuss <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
<mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:
I'd brush up on fiber splicing lol
On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 1:40 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss
<plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
<mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:
AT&T is still fscked up. The tech came out
today and told me that the cutoff for the
service is 4800 feet and I'm 5136 feet from the
box the modem talks to. He ran some test
anyway and confirmed it's not available. He
told me he has heard of no plans to bring fiber
to my neighborhood, but said it is available in
a small town 5 miles up the road from me in one
direction. 3 miles down the road in the other
direction is a subdivision that has it. The
fiber runs next to the highway less than a
hundred yards from here. I guess it's time to
see what other options if any are available.
On 8/16/20 10:39 AM, Michael Butash wrote:
I think it mostly comes down to the fact that
they can only really guarantee 2 or 4 wires to
a premise for residential telco, probably more
modern deployments a full 8 wires (ala CatX),
though their traditional copper distribution
isn't built for it unless commercial (their big
PED on the roads your neighborhood comes back
to. Probably something in the telcordia
standards back to ma bell days that says that
is just how it is. Since the plants are
non-shielded, non-twisted pair cabling too, it
can only modulate so high, particularly when
poorly run/done, which is why you're stuck at
12mbps.
If they had to change your home copper, they'd
just run fiber, neither will happen likely.
The DSL bonding is already a hack to get more
bandwidth when DSL itself is stuck in time now
at raw theoretical limits. Combining more
physical channels as these were would be
trivial, if copper were available, and telcos
wanted to support it. Someone would need to
make the modem too. Technically cable modems
do this, literally taking "channels" or slices
or spectrum on the wire, and load-balancing
them internally, up to 24 or 32 channels for
multi-gig capabilities. Same with ethernet,
taking 8 into a port-channel and balancing
across them, whether 100 megabit or 400 gigabit
ethernet.
AT&T is the most ghetto provider out there
still, and always has been imho. Moving to San
Jose in '99, there was AT&T Cable TV installed
by the owners, which consisted of 2x of your
standard coax ala modern cable from the
outside, and required a physical a/b switch box
to switch between 13 channels on one, and 13
channels on another. First I looked at it, and
was confused enough I had to call them and ask
wtf the cable "channels" worked to realize just
how bad it was, and I then worked for the
original @home cable isp company then
supporting AT&T cable modems! The images were
even snowy, the service was so bad even a tech
couldn't (read: wouldn't) improve. When I
asked about a cable modem, they laughed at me,
so I had to get DSL (phat 1.5mbps then),
disconnected the useless cable tv (yay usenet
alt.binaries.video even then), and threw up a
finger to AT&T.
I can only imagine how bad AT&T's DSL is if
they couldn't figure out even coax. My
experience supporting their customers for Cable
Modem data in '99, relatively new tech then,
wasn't much better, as if the cable plant to
your house was broke, it tended to just stay
broke despite our rolling their techs to fix
it. Then they'd get angry at us for doing so
and tell us to stop rolling so many trucks to
fix things.
Sigh.
Having grown up in Phoenix where Dimension, and
later Cox actually had their shit (relatively)
together, this was an inconceivable atrocity
but exactly what I'd expect of AT&T. Thanks to
them (and Comcast, all the media cartels now
really) owning the FCC now with your tax
dollars, it'll never, ever, get better either.
Good thing Net Neutrality and consumer rights
weren't really needed after all!
-mb
On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 12:42 PM Jim via
PLUG-discuss <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
<mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:
150 Mbps, you're lucky. Here AT&T has to
bond 2 pairs so I can get 25 Mbps. At
least it's not comcast. I wonder how many
pairs they could bond. Is there a
technical limit or is it just a matter of
how many they want to bond? As more people
abandon landlines, that leaves more
capacity for AT&T to bond multiple pairs
for internet customers.
On 8/10/20 11:21 AM, Michael Butash via
PLUG-discuss wrote:
So I went through this moving from Cox to
CenturyLink, and pretty much as described,
fairly painless.
<tldr>
I had scheduled a CL tech to install me
for new service a few years ago, and we
first hit the outside where CL ran their
cabling in. It was an ancient telephony
distribution from the 90's, and I've never
had a land-line in my house since owning
it in 2002. My house built in 95 at least
used cat5 or like, so I have 4 pairs to
every room, so 2 pairs I need was just
fine for bonded DSL He ripped out the old
block, removing the house cabling but the
one, and isolated the particular line we
needed to my office where the modem lives,
added an approved jack, done. Bonded dsl
is 2x 2-wire channels, and they
essentially load-balance 75+75mbps
channels. I have tested this to n-by
gigabit upstreams.
Phone only guarantees 2 wires are
available, so telcos built on this 100
years ago are a bit assed-out on passable
high-frequency modulation schemas in use
for data and other things to move beyond
where they're at. DSL makes up for this,
particularly when double up on wires it
gets better, but still unshielded and
prone to breakdown. Problem is mostly it
isn't shielded, thus capable of very high
frequency modulation ala Cable/DOCSIS, so
it will never go much further than it has
today whereas Cable scales to gigabits
with channelization and QAM modulation at
32bit rates.
VDSL tech is capable of roughly 75mbps per
channel, and 2x of these get you to around
CL's bonded DSL limits. This also includes
your distance limitations to your local
DSLAM, or regional router that terminates
your data that degrades this eventually
further you are from it, so it's a bit
tricky. It's been stuck here for years,
and pretty much at life end. This is why
my cousin living half a mile from me can
only get 75mbps from CL and I can with
bonded @150mbps here. Old crap network there.
Fiber, particularly Single Mode, gives you
whatever to ~100GbE, but depends on how
your provider does low-rate Passive
Optical Networking (PON) today for
residential fiber. Not quite the same as a
business data network, but any fiber is
better than copper networks.
Why Centurylink's only hope for the future
is fiber vs. copper in new builds. I like
my 25yr old house still, so no fiber for
me ever. Unless I street cut my block for
fiber myself, which I've considered, just
need to get my neighbors to buy into me as
their new gigabit isp. ;)
-mb
On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 1:27 PM Jim via
PLUG-discuss
<plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
<mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>>
wrote:
Ok. I won't complain if I have to go
out and buy a 4 conductor phone cord.
On 8/7/20 9:05 AM, Stephen Partington
wrote:
My understanding of this is that they
will activate the second pair that is
commonly used in the RJ-43 port in
your wall. This will allow 2 lines
active to the device.
Changes inside might need to happen
if your residence does not have 4
wire (2 line) compatibility. (IE 2
pairs to the jack vs 1 pair)
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 9:10 PM Jim
via PLUG-discuss
<plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
<mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>>
wrote:
Where I live, I get AT&T for my
DSL service. I've signed up for an
upgrade from 10 Mbps to 25. I
finally got someone there who
would tell
me why a technician visit is
required for the upgrade. They're
bonding 2
pairs to supply the faster speed
here. I've read up online about DSL
bonding. I understand that one
pair will carry some of the data,
and
the other pair will carry some.
But one thing I didn't find out was
whether or not anything will
change between the wall jack and the
modem. Is everything done
outside or do they have to come
inside? I
currently have a 2 conductor cord
connecting my modem to the wall
jack.
Will that have to be replaced
with a 4 conductor cord? Do they
install
an extra box outside or inside?
I guess all will be answered on the
18th when the guy is scheduled to
be here. I'm really curious how
this
works.
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