Thanks to you all, Peter, Simon and Hans, for you replies.
I would gather all of them (and perhaps more) to the
Cookbook/BulkReplace page, in order to have a reference page for the
issue. This is better than keeping information sparse accross the site
and the mailing lists.
You are most probably b
Russ wrote:
> I have a site using Fox to accept content from a form and save the
> fields as PTV's. Some forms submit multi-line content, but when
> displaying those PTV's (i.e. through a page list) I don't necessarily
> need the entire variable displayed, but would prefer to limit it to a
> c
> I have very little understanding of Linux, Apache, PHP, etc.
> I am, what you might call, a computer "illiterate".
Sorry if I ask, but: why do you want to install pmwiki iside your pc?
Struggling to have a working system at home, in case you are not a
computer expert, seems clueless.
If the poi
Pmwiki is so nice that we use it extensively, really.
Now, one may need to make bulk changes to the content of all/many
pages at a time. This is particularly true now that, thanks to PTVs,
we can use pmwiki pages to record fields like "Date_of_birth:
2009/10/09".
Imagine you have 300 pages in a Fr
I have a little wiki which is protected with AuthUser.
Users provide id and password in order to login.
As far as I could see, there is a folder in the system where some
sessions files are stored: they all start with "sess_" and then a
random number follows.
I guessed these files keep track of the
>> Just I'm scared by that green notice telling about the MMCache.
>> I'll enquiry the hosting about it, but what if it is not disabled?
> It looks like MMCache hasn't been updated since 2003.. I hope they're
> not still using this.. PHP has changed quite a bit since then...
Sorry, I cannot und
I have pmwiki flawlessy running on php4 since years.
Now my (shared) hosting is switching to php5.
As far as I read here http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/PmWiki/PmWikiFeatures
there should no problem at all.
Just I'm scared by that green notice telling about the MMCache.
I'll enquiry the hosting about i
> The wiki contains a personal folder named "Personal".
That "folder" is usually referred to as "Group" in the pmwiki jargon.
Actually, it is not a folder the way it was with static html files.
> I wanna this folder password protected.
You will find details here http://pmwiki.org/wiki/PmWiki/P
>> If the images are currently on Page1#image#imageend which is read protected
>> could you not put those images on Page2#image#imageend which would be only
>> edit protected (thus allowing includes from anywhere). Then if you want to
>> display them in Page1 just (:include Page2#image#imageend:)
Maria, I would personally suggest Martin's recipe[1], but you might
want to read here as well
http://pmichaud.com/pipermail/pmwiki-users/2008-August/052019.html
just to know this also is possible.
Luigi
[1] http://pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/Columns
>> I have a page where lots of images are stored, together with comments,
>> copyright notices and other relevant details.
>> Such page is read/write protected, as it my own repository.
> If the images are currently on Page1#image#imageend which is read protected
> could you not put those images o
I have a page where lots of images are stored, together with comments,
copyright notices and other relevant details.
Such page is read/write protected, as it my own repository.
I need to include (just) the images all over my site, which could been
handy by just writing:
(:include Group.Page#ima
Hi,
Try
http://www.example.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=GroupName.GroupAttributes?action=
attr
enter for the passwords you want to clear for group 'GroupName'
@nopass
Original Message:
-
From: Swift, Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 14:04:55 +0200
> is it possible to set up, on this server, a website using PmWiki
> with a look and feel which is local to my pages only?
Yes, it is.
And it is easy, also.
Just an example:
- http://www.kirpi.it/germania
-
http://www.kirpi.it/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Xhtml10strictaccessible.Xhtml10strictaccessible
T
> PPS. Is Eemeli a Finnish or Baltic name?
As far as I know it is the Finnish version "Emil", which is of Latin origin.
But Eemeli himself can tell us more :-)
Luigi
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> Is it possible to make that looks like this:
> Site Administration - May 28, 2008
> Analyze - January 01, 1970
> Auth Form- January 01, 1970
Please try this:
(:if false:)
[[#titleonly]]
(:template first:)
||border=1 cellpadding=3 cellspacing=0 bgcolor=#f7f7f7
> 6. Credit Card Authorization
Do not fancy of handling credit card yourself: this is not possible.
Even storing credit cards data into your server would be a bad idea.[1]
As far as my own experience goes, the best way to handle credit cards
is relying on banks or big organizations servers: you
> I've move "as is" all my files and directories with ftp,
> but my links are still pointing to my former url (and files).
You might (at least) give a look at your local/config.php file.
There might me a bunch of variables like
$ScriptUrl
$PubDirUrl
$UploadDir
$UploadUrlFmt
and pos
Hi,
I would like to move pmwiki from one URL to another and I don't know what
file(s) I have to modify ?
I've move "as is" all my files and directories with ftp, but my links are still
pointing to my former url (and files).
Thanks for your help.
Xavier
__
Perhaps the issue is not just digitally signing the files: that would
be enough in a closed environment, where a just a restricted bunch of
developers uploads a few files.
Here, due to the (almost) totally open approach (which is a positive
thing, indeed), not only pages but also recipes are contin
> I would not like this extra work.
Yes, I see.
I didn't necessaily mean extra work, actually.
I just envisioned that any obstinate, although not refined, attack,
consisting in polluting recipes with dangerous scripts, would bring
pmwiki.org life to its end in not more than a few weeks.
I fancie
> I am testing the Newsmaster Receipe...
Although it actually works, the script I exposed is far from refined.
(I'll try tomorrow to answer your question directly)
As you might find in the recipe page, the original script from which I
started (at the time lacking a secure login) is now safe.
You m
While I see pmwiki site under spam attack, and after having restored a
couple of web pages, I'm troubling myself with the following
(dreadful) thought: is there a sort of security
lock/code/flag/hash/signature/whatever allowing people to trust
(somehow) the recipes the community upload/download and
Petko, I added an example under the "Notes" section of
http://pmwiki.org/wiki/PmWiki/Images
which works, but I'm not sure I did it right.
Thank you!
Luigi
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>> The %lframe thumb% markup is quite smart and useful.
>> - Image is reduced on the fly
> This is not exactly correct, the image is fully downloaded and re-sized in the
> browser. This is just a scaled-down huge picture, not a real thumbnail
> (smaller picture, fewer bytes).
Yes, sorry.
You a
The %lframe thumb% markup is quite smart and useful.
- Image is reduced on the fly
- Both the image and its caption (or part of it) can easily be
rendered as links to the full size image or any other suitable target.
- Caption is easily formatted in any
small/italic/bold/colored/whatever way a
> I've seen a PHPfree chat recipe, ZAP and the shoutbox option.
As far as my own experience goes, phpFreeChat is a very good choice.
It is actively developed, well tested, runs on flat files, and is easy
to set up.
I couldn't manage to let the PHPFreeChat integration recipe work for
me (maybe my f
-- Preamble --
Simple unnumbered lists happen to be of the most basic and flexible
way to keep, show, and provide data for many purposes.
They offer enough order to keep information and documents tidy, while
allowing for a simple layout, simple maintanance, and a lot of
creativity in the way thing
> I'm still in the process of establishing my website.
I'm under the impression that your going to set up you own personal website.
I mean: most probably it will be a place for your basic presence on
the internet, a place for you to make experiments, a data repository,
and a little (but not much)
> I have noticed that at http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Test/Present
> there is a very nice show of who is present on the website by
> author name and it displays what they are doing. Is this a recipe?
> How would I incorporate this on my website?
It came out some years ago, as I asked Patrick about
Thus, we'll have to check things against Chrome, as well...
:-) http://www.google.com/chrome/
Luigi
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While the community is brewing new ideas, markup and thoughts on
tables, I wanted to pass on this link I just stunbled into
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Quarrymen#Le_diverse_formazioni
- Do you think it would be a table related issue?
- Do you think it could be of any usage, overall? [I do, pe
> I'm still looking for people to highlight other wiki engines
> that perform word-level diffs
Do you mean anything like this?
http://it.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fisarmonica&diff=17732684&oldid=17634678
Luigi
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> I don't think anyone has written a recipe for converting an actual
> spreadsheet file to HTML within PmWiki
Quite right.
Yet, just to remember as we are on the theme, the Cookbook/ExcelPaste
recipe works (almost) flawlessy in most cases.
Luigi
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pm
o I vote for it.
> Some alternatives:
> ...
> [[<http://www.>pmichaud.com]]
<...> are used everyday by everybody in email addresses in the
Patrick R. Michaud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
form, where the <...> part is the "target" and the other part is the
optional "label
> Speaking of tables, I just had another thought regarding
> the simple type of tables we create. The motivation here is
> that in my experience, I often end up creating the small/simple
> tables as follows:
> [@
> Column AColumn B Column C
> asdfas asdfasdf asdfasdf
> asdfasdf
> But if we eliminate = because it means heading in Creole and
> others, eliminate _ because they are hard to count visually,
> and reject _n_ as inconsistent with the normal "repeat n times"
> convention, I think it leaves the "least worst" as:
> ||text spanning 4 rows||
Not quite.
My feelin
Do you please have a url for us to see?
Of course, there is no system/php log available to you, is there?
Luigi
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> In the same way that || denotes columnspan, I propose using
> the = character to denote rowspan
> - the desirability of a rowspan capability
Rowspan feature on basic tables *does* make sense and is often useful.
- whether it should be in the core
I suggest it should.
Luigi
___
I might well be rather naïf, and this thread be slightly off.topic,
but I remember somebody in the past seeking for a flexible
multi-columns approach, which was not so easily (or not at all) found.
Now, I just discovered this jquery plugin
http://plugins.jquery.com/project/Columnizer which might pr
Fabiana,
are you sure that you are not posting to the wrong list?
Luigi
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> I am unable to figure out how to integrate a form
> of members sign in / regisration form for within my website.
That will be useful perhaps.
http://pmichaud.com/pipermail/pmwiki-users/2008-July/051434.html
Luigi
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> http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/Mini
I stumbled into this page
http://cssglobe.com/post/1305/create-resizing-thumbnails-using-overflow-property
which recalled me to Petko's nice Mini recipe.
The approach (and the result) is quite different, but I just wanted to share...
Luigi
_
> (:table width=50% align=center:)
> (:cell:)
>
> (:tableend:)
> someone more talented than I am might write a
> proper css for this.
> #wikitext hr {
> border: 0;
> width: 61.8%;
> color: #e66e31;
> background-color: #e66e31;
> height: 1px;
> }
Indeed, while I
> This WikiStyle works for me, but I wanted the
> line to be centered. I've tried adding 'align=center' and 'center' to the
> WikiStyle, as well as '%center%', but either it is ignored or I get a
> centered ''. Do you have any suggestions for centering the short line?
This might help
(:ta
This works for me
>>width=50pct<<
>><<
Please see http://www.kirpi.it/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Test.ShortLine
Luigi
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> Could you or someone explain what
> $HandleAuth['diff'] = $HandleAuth['source'] = 'edit';
> does? I don't have this in my config.php
It just means that ?action=diff (to read the history)
and ?action=source (to read the source in wiki format)
are to be treated like ?action=edit
In my own site i
> How can I apply a css and tmpl that are different
> from my standard style to a whole group?
Cameron,
load a skin folder into the /pub/skins/ folder. You might start
testing with one of the many skins available at the pmwiki.org site.
Then create a text file and name it Yourgroup.php (should be
My Site.PageActions a www.kirpi.it is
(:if auth edit:)
* %item class=browse accesskey='$[ak_view]'%[[{$FullName} | $[View] ]]
* %item rel=nofollow class=edit
accesskey='$[ak_edit]'%[[{$FullName}?action=edit | $[Edit] ]]
* %item rel=nofollow class=diff
accesskey='$[ak_history]'%[[{$FullName}?action
> we have some vandalism on our wiki. Someone is emptying pages
> or replacing the content with nonsense. Actually we don't want to
> change the open wiki to a wiki with authentification, so we block each
> time his IP (it's always the same person). But with changing IPs we
> have to block always t
It seems that a basic skin for mobiles is taking shape.
The test page I use
http://www.kirpi.it/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Mobile.Mobile?action=mobile
seems rather light and does validate
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kirpi.it%2Fwiki%2Fpmwiki.php%3Fn%3DMobile.Mobile%3Faction%3Dmobile&ch
> http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;489635775
Craigslist.org's attack is shivering.
The article ends with a reference which might look funny
http://random.irb.hr/signup.php but indeed confirms that maybe there
is still some hope for tests based on natural language question/answer
like
> > > http://www.kirpi.it/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Mobile.Mobile?action=mobile
>> - As the page loads, a lot of things are included into the page
>> (javascripts, css definitions,...please see the html) which could be
>> useful (and make no harm) for the regular pc view, but are unuseful
>> and overload
> Does anyone know how to register the numbers of viewers of a wiki page?
Wouldn't http://www.google.com/analytics/ be of any use?
Luigi
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> Not sure why you use ?action=mobile
Mainly because I would like to be able and manually switch to the
mobile version of a page no matter the device I am using. And back.
Another answer to the same question could be: because I do not really
know what else to do. Have you ever seen a blind man wa
> I can try and mimic the basic template provided by .mobi consortium as
> a starting point
> http://www.kirpi.it/176/index.xhtml
My first attempt is here for all to see:
http://www.kirpi.it/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Mobile.Mobile?action=mobile
Unsatisfactory, miserable, pathetic.
Anyway, a proof of conce
>> If this mobile idea is useful, and it is not too heavy a project, you
>> could maybe provide the action/skin/setskin=mobile along with a basic
>> mobile skin as a default feature of a standard pmwiki install.
> If someone provides the skin, I think I can make the rest work.
I can try and mimic
> I agree we can customize output for mobile devices, but it shouldn't
> require a separate command. Instead, the site (or skin or whatever)
> can detect that the request is coming from a mobile device and alter
> the display accordingly.
While "intelligent" computers are useful at times, they ma
It is today's news that Apple seems to have sold over one million
iPhones within this last weekend.[1]
Web for mobiles (and pocket-size devices in general) is every day
closer or, at least, not too far.
According to many people I heard and read from, the vast majority of
web-enabled mobile phones
> which care should be taken [...] to devote and optimize a group of pages of
> his/her
> site for mobile navigation?
> Not only technical requirements, but also maybe some good practices to
> take care of...
A good article to start from, with sensible judgments and useful
links; to be read throu
I have been stimulated, today, by the http://mobi.mit.edu/about/ page
about MIT web services for web-enabled mobiles. Also, I had fun
testing http://m.google.com/, http://us.m.yahoo.com/ and the like.
I do not own any of such advanced devices, but many people do and,
which is more, a *lot* others w
> don't use align=center in tables, but center it via css,
> don't use [[<<]], or with css style clear:both;
I dropped the table, where both align=center and [[<<]] were.
So no more errors on this side.
As for writing a css, Patrick said he would try...
We'll see if that can go into the core.
>
I installed and enabled for testing the last version (2008-07-10) of
Triad in a "Xhtml10strictaccessible" group at my personal site.
Validation test shows a lot of errors of which I have no clue.
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kirpi.it%2Fwiki%2Fpmwiki.php%3Fn%3DXhtml10strictacce
I am persuaded, somehow, that WikiSh might be of some use, although I
couldn't deal with it myself.
What does Peter think...?
Luigi
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> PmWiki markup [[<<]] is rendered as
> which is not XHTML1 strict.
>
> Perhaps it could be changed to
>
> ## [[<<]] (break)
> Markup('[[<<]]','inline','/\\[\\[<<\\]\\]/',"");
>
> and class clearall added to $HTMLStylesFmt['markup']
> as
> .clearall { clear:both; }
>
> or defined as
As I
>> Patrick:
>> the markup engine aims to always output XHTML 1.0 Strict, so a skin that
>> specifies XHTML 1.0 Strict should be okay
>
>> Hans:
>> If you come up with any changes necessary to Triad skin please let me
>> know! Also with regards to make it more accessible.
Triad is possibly the best
> I want to put a link on the left hand side that just
> goes to a test box asking for the pages name,
> they type it in and the page is created.
> Does this functionality already exist somewhere?
Have you tried this?
http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/NewPageBoxPlus
Luigi
_
>> I see that current pmwiki outputs XHTML 1.0 Transitional pages.
>> Would it be an attainable goal to have XHTML 1.0 Strict code?
> While it would certainly be attainable, I'm not sure it would
> be a desirable goal in the general case. :-)
> At any rate, the level of XHTML compatibility depend
I see that current pmwiki outputs XHTML 1.0 Transitional pages.
Would it be an attainable goal to have XHTML 1.0 Strict code?
Does it depend on the skin, somehow?
Luigi
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>>> ...action=print...
>> this gives the print preview, but don't
>> lauch the print window?
> Right.
> It calls the "print skin", if there is one, while triggering a printer
> is quite a different task.
Actually, there are links that trigger the very printing process, like
the one you find at t
> > ...action=print...
> this gives the print preview, but don't
> lauch the print window?
Right.
It calls the "print skin", if there is one, while triggering a printer
is quite a different task.
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> I don't know if there are any other things that need to be considered,
> other than nix the Java and probably JavaScript.
As far as I can say, iPhone is usable with JavaScript *but* as there
is no mouse you have hard times navigating with onmouseover or similar
menus.
Navigation should be plain:
Both Petko and Hans have an ineresting solution.
Maybe Hans' one is the closest to the one I was after.
I slightly modified it to
(:pagelist group=Profiles $:Email=- list=normal fmt=#includeEmail:)
(:if false:)
[[#includeEmail]]
(:template each:)
[[Profiles/{=$Name}]] <{{=$FullName}$:Email}>,
[[#
The idea is forcing the system to harvest all the :Email text
variables inside Profiles pages and print a list on a dedicated page,
something in the form
Pagename1 , Pagename2 , Pagename3 , ...
This way it becomes easy to "spam" friends... :-)
My experiments on a test page give no results:
> for i in BBaCommunity.*
> do
> mv ${i} ${i#BBa}
> done
It seems to me that the real issue is not switching from GroupA.PageA
to GroupB.PageB but keep an eye and update any and every link,
reference, GroupA.PageA.php file and so on which is resident on the
wiki install, at any level.
The change
> Is it possible to easily change a group name and all it's pages?
> so, for example, the group pmwiki.php?n=BBaCommunity.BBaCommunity
> changes to pmwiki.php?n=Community.Community and all the pages
> that belonged to the BBaCommunity group get changed over to the new Community
> group.
While (f
> Pmwiki + Opera allow for a very simple and effective creation
> and maintenance of kiosks...
Sorry, I forgot to say that, while searching for a virtual keyboard
for the kiosk, I found this
http://www.codeproject.com/KB/scripting/jvk.aspx to be useful and
flexible.
Luigi
__
I'm happy to witness that my recent experiments with Pmwiki + Opera[1]
allow for a very simple and effective creation and maintenance of
kiosks such as those you find in public libraries, shopping malls,...
Also, I'm experimenting Opera Kiosk Mode for fenced/protected internet
navigation in select
> have a look at
> http://www.wikipublisher.org/wiki/index.php?n=Main.HomePage
> which has 2 external links.
> This is built into the skin for the site. If you want, I can
> send the zipped skin to you off-list with an explanation.
John, in case it is a different solution from the published ones[1
> My page has some content that is only relevant when viewed on the
> screen. In print view, it's just clutter. Is there an easy way to
> suppress it?
This part of the page will print as usual
(:if action browse:)
This text will not be seen\\
nor printed when in print view
(:ifend:)
This will also
> May i know how to edit the side bar so that
> it can show others sub side bar when we point to it?
I'm not sure I unersand what you mean...
Are you looking for sub-menus?
Drop-down menus? What about this page?
http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/HorizontalVerticalMenu
> i wish to make the wor
> Is there a way (as Wikipedia etc., have) of indicating which links are
> internal & which external?
Emma, did you happen to give a look at this page?
http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/ExternalLinks
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> It seems that IE breaks something as you try and dimension tables.
> I tried this http://www.kirpi.it/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Test.TableWithImages
> table with images and it works quite fine in Mozilla Firefox and
> Opera, but not in IE.
Ok.
IE breaks it unless images are placed in the background.
Exa
It seems that IE breaks something as you try and dimension tables.
I tried this http://www.kirpi.it/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Test.TableWithImages
table with images and it works quite fine in Mozilla Firefox and
Opera, but not in IE.
Does anybody has a clue, please?
Luigi
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Now only admins can enable new admins.
http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/NewsMaster
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> use it to issue newsletters to a group of subscribers
> (as long as there are not too many, since
> the mailing is done by the php mail function)
I was looking at Ben Wilson's version 3.0 of TellAFriend[1] recipe. He
was using "XPertMailer package[2] to send the email, rather than PHP's
mail() f
> I don't know if Pm ever added the pop3 mail checking capabilities...
> [...]
> ...you could have your site actually process some of the bounced
> mail to keep your lists clean
Does it help?
http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/WikiBox
Luigi
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> I did not know what the password is for user 'admin'.
> It seems not to be the one one can set in news/config.php
> (as shipped:
> $uname[1] = "admin";
> $upass[1] = "advin";
> )
>
> I could not log in with this pair.
>
> But then I discovered I could register as a
> new News Master! And after re
I tried and rework the login system of the Newsmaster recipe
http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/NewsMaster
It should be ok now.
In case anybody is willing to give a look at it, please do.
Luigi
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ht
I've just devoted a Cookbook page for a new recipe called NewsMaster.
It provides an easy way to handle newsletters, publicity lists,
notifications and other mailing need, with a lot of useful and handy
features:
- Flat files, no database required
- Information Groups: users can choose wha
Please try
# %item value=2517% blipp blipp
http://pmwiki.org/wiki/PmWiki/ListStyles
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I'd personally prefer to think that any tiny second of Patrick's
precious time is spent adding planned features instead of formally
releasing a 2.2 version which has already proven to be more than
stable.
*But*, as Clayton Curtis has problems in adopting non formally stable
software, I suggest the
> Is there an Open Source one which anybody can recommend
> which might even integrate with pmwiki?
In the past I was pointed by Clemens Gruber[1] to OTRS
http://otrs.org/ which I succeeded in installing and set to work.
It is really a good system, but much more complicated to admin than pmwik
Link rot *is* a problem which, season by season, affects more and more
web users, authors and admins.
Also, they say, search engines do not like broken links, and this
might adversely affect sites luck in Google (& Co.) ranking.
Although there seems not to be a simple solution to the issue, we can
> http://www.kryogenix.org/code/browser/sorttable/
> It works beautifully, and took about 5 minutes to get worked into a plugin.
...which you're ready to share...?
Did you code anything out of that, or just copied and pasted the javascript?
And how, please?
Henrik's advice worked really wonderf
> http://www.joostdevalk.nl/code/sortable-table/ is dead easy.
Your're quite right!
I drafted a (sort of) recipe for this
http://pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/SortableTables
As soon as my children are in bed (it might take hours...) I'll try
and write a proper recipe text.
Thank you!
Luigi
___
> Luigi (quoting DaveG):
> http://motherrussia.polyester.se/docs/tablesorter/
> Sameer:
> I am using the javascript and the method indicated towards the end of this
> page:
> http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/PITS/00388
> Henrik
> Here's the javascript:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/wikib
> I found this thread
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.web.wiki.pmwiki.user/42024
I also used that jquery script, and it's really a good, compact and
reliable tool.
Maybe it could be used for some pmwiki recipe.
Luigi
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pmwiki-users mailing li
> I just built a (not finished yet) table of that kind in wikipedia, and
> it proves quite easy to write (while extremely useful for readers,
> which is the key point).
Jut to be complete http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisarmonica#Centri_di_produzione
Luigi
_
It probably happens to be an old question, or a very naive one, but:
is it now possible to have sortable tables in pmwiki?
I just built a (not finished yet) table of that kind in wikipedia, and
it proves quite easy to write (while extremely useful for readers,
which is the key point).
What about pm
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