On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 09:13 Matus UHLAR - fantomas
wrote:
> On 25.03.18 13:48, Tom Browder wrote:
> >I’m in the process of setting up a new server and want postfix.
> >
> >My question is: should I install from source or use the debian packages?
>
> from package
I’m in the process of setting up a new server and want postfix.
My question is: should I install from source or use the debian packages?
I have installed fro source before, but I would like to ease my maintenance
burden as much as I can, but without sacrificing security.
Thanks.
Best regards,
On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 13:56 Wietse Venema wrote:
> Tom Browder:
> > Does everyone agree with pgndev's detailed cookbook recipe?
>
> No, that advice is incorrect.
>
> 1) Specify the opendkim '-u' option with an account that is not
>used by anythin
My simple list is working pretty good. I got the headers fixed per Gmail
(but no dkim yet) and mail to gmail addrees is NOT going to spam. The mail
to protonmail is still going to spam, but when I get dkim working I hope
that will fix that problem.
The only real problem I see is the sender addres
On 3 September 2017 at 12:08, pgndev wrote:
...
Thanks for all the responses.
Does everyone agree with pgndev's detailed cookbook recipe?
-Tom
On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 06:44 Wietse Venema wrote:
> Tom Browder:
> The docs mention not to use root or postfix for the "-u UID" option. Then
> > what user should it be? Is a new user to be created for that purpose?
> > Should that same user own the /var/db/dkim dir
The docs mention not to use root or postfix for the "-u UID" option. Then
what user should it be? Is a new user to be created for that purpose?
Should that same user own the /var/db/dkim directory and files?
Thanks.
-Tom
I tried to follow the instructions in several links detailing how to use
the always bcc method to archive mail sent through my mail server. However,
I couldn't get the no-home user with a /var Maildir directory to work.
I did get it to work by using a local user as bcc and all the mail goes to
tha
On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 21:44 Richard Damon
wrote:
...
> One point of information about Gmail, which may want you to change your
> test setup a bit. Gmail suppresses duplicate messages (as determined by
> the Message-ID), and (unless the mailing list changes the message-id,
> which is generally a
On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 12:54 PM, Viktor Dukhovni
wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 12:40:24PM -0500, Tom Browder wrote:
>
>> > Surely your maillist software adds these headers. If it doesn't,
>> > get better maillist software.
>>
>> Right now I'm
It's not clear to me about mail from the internet to non-local
addresses being automatically rejected unless they are explicitly
listed in the aliases file.
I think the docs mean that I don't have to worry about rejecting mail
from the internet sending to unknown user names. The only alias names
On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 12:17 PM, Noel Jones wrote:
> On 8/31/2017 11:45 AM, Tom Browder wrote:
>>
>> I've seen the docs about the prepend method, but I wonder about how
>> to find out if a desired header is already used--would that cause a
>> problem? Also, I gue
On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 10:57 Benny Pedersen wrote:
> Tom Browder skrev den 2017-08-31 17:29:
>
> > I don't see any specific mailing lists for libmilter assistance. Is it
> > fair to ask here or go elsewhere? If elsewhere, where, then?
>
>
> https://serverfaul
I need to add some headers in mail to satisfy gmail and it looks like using
libmilter may be the way to go unless someone suggests otherwise.
I don't see any specific mailing lists for libmilter assistance. Is it fair
to ask here or go elsewhere? If elsewhere, where, then?
Thanks.
-To
On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 14:42 Dirk Stöcker wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Aug 2017, Tom Browder wrote:
>
> > Gmail has a list of steps recommended to minimize spam identification,
> particularly mail sent as bulk mail (as from mailing lists).
Just FYI, my simple mailing list has my three
On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 6:33 PM, Viktor Dukhovni
wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 09:10:26PM +0000, Tom Browder wrote:
>> > Tom Browder:
>> > > It's clear that list items in main.cf can be comma or space separated.
>> > Is
>> > > that also true
On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 6:17 PM, Gary wrote:
> It would help to have a link to Gmail's suggestions.
Good idea, Gary. Here it is:
https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126?hl=en
-Tom
On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 6:28 PM, Wietse Venema wrote:
> Tom Browder:
>> On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 15:46 Wietse Venema wrote:
>> > What is an alias or virtual list?
>>
>> I mean the RHS of aliases, e.g., as in simple mailing lists in the alias
>> file:
>&g
Gmail has a list of steps recommended to minimize spam identification,
particularly mail sent as bulk mail (as from mailing lists).
One of the recommendations is to use DKIM and that is clearly explained on
the postfix website.
The other steps are fairly straight forward, also, but how does one a
On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 16:10 Tom Browder wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 15:46 Wietse Venema wrote:
>
>> Tom Browder:
>> > It's clear that list items in main.cf can be comma or space separated.
>> Is
>> > that also true for alias and virtual list
On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 15:46 Wietse Venema wrote:
> Tom Browder:
> > It's clear that list items in main.cf can be comma or space separated.
> Is
> > that also true for alias and virtual lists?
>
> What is an alias or virtual list?
I mean the RHS of aliases, e.g.,
It's clear that list items in main.cf can be comma or space separated. Is
that also true for alias and virtual lists?
Thanks.
-Tom
On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 08:51 Viktor Dukhovni
wrote:
>
> For further help, follow up with configuration details as requested by
> others.
The best advice for this dummy (me) was to check the firewall. I still had
a block on port 25 left from an aborted attempt to install Webmin a few
months ago
On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 08:22 Ralph Seichter
wrote:
...
> Please study http://www.postfix.org/DEBUG_README.html for starters.
I had studied it and have done up through verbose messages with - v but saw
nothing. However, I forgot about the peer setting which is probably why the
logs are quiet.
e-State: AHYfb5jF1U/5/nM/qs4LFXPbcDJaESmn1SI0pPAFO0QcfkOjS98Pfku6
dQ9UOTo/nSKJeZmMfigHhBDljtQf/w==
X-Received: by 10.202.212.145 with SMTP id l139mr4635287oig.160.1503831082606;
Sun, 27 Aug 2017 03:51:22 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
From: Tom Browder
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2017 10:51:12 +
On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 15:19 wrote:
> Tom, have you considered looking at iRedMail? That is what I use here
> and it uses Postfix as the MTP of choice along with other open source
> components for IMAP, spam filtering, etc.
>
> http://www.iredmail.org
Robert, I have looked at it but I don't t
On Sat, Aug 26, 2017 at 12:53 Viktor Dukhovni
wrote:
>
> > On Aug 26, 2017, at 9:06 AM, Tom Browder wrote:
> >
> > I am fooling around with various configuration settings for my postfix
> installation and would like to be able to clean out all existing mail and
>
I am fooling around with various configuration settings for my postfix
installation and would like to be able to clean out all existing mail and
the existing configuration.
Is there any single command to do that? Or do I have to manually delete
stuff.
I want the system to (1) start with empty qu
On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 10:21 Tom Browder wrote:
>
> On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 09:13 Rick van Rein wrote:
>
>> Hi
>
> ...
>
>> @Tom, to get back to your original question, a plain & simple mailing
>> list is a bed of nails... even when you do it reall
On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 09:13 Rick van Rein wrote:
> Hi
...
> @Tom, to get back to your original question, a plain & simple mailing
> list is a bed of nails... even when you do it really nicely, perhaps
> even still when you canonicalise remote users to local addresses as in
Okay, Rick, I thi
On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 07:50 Rick van Rein wrote:
> > srs is not needed with postfix,
>
> They are unrelated. However: my remark of needing SRS does assume that
> he's forwarding for others than his own domains.
>
> I agree with Wietse that MailMan solves the same poblem (VERP is similar
> to S
On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 05:22 Rick van Rein wrote:
> Hi Tom,
>
> > For example: Incoming mail for for "need...@foo.com
> > " and "need...@bar.com
> > " are sent to separate subscriber lists.
>
> That will work if you create the lists in the virtual map.
>
> You probably should have an SRS setup
My postfix will accept mail for multiple domains. Is it possible to have
one or more "simple mailing list"s for each domain?
For example: Incoming mail for for "need...@foo.com" and "need...@bar.com"
are sent to separate subscriber lists.
Thanks.
Best regards,
-Tom
On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Alef Veld wrote:
> What's the conflicting opinion ?
Looking at a Wikipedia article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sender_Policy_Framework
But i guess spf is here to stay.
Thanks.
-Tom
I'm reading about some conflicting opinions of the spf record (via a
TXT record) and wonder if there is a consensus view among the postfix
developers.
Thanks.
-Tom
On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 8:24 AM, Viktor Dukhovni
wrote:
...
> The "postfix" user is an unprivileged service account (think of it
> as a Postfix-specific "nobody" account) used to run internal services
> at low-privilege (optionally chrooted with root permissions revoked).
> While it is possible to
On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 06:41 Ralph Seichter
wrote:
> On 18.08.2017 12:57, Tom Browder wrote:
>
> > I can't find whether the postfix commands should be executed as root
> > or the postfix user.
>
> "The postfix commands" is ambiguous. While launching Po
In spite of its old age, I use the "Postfix" book by Kyle Dent for ease of
basic reference. I am now stepping through configuration and I can't find
whether the postfix commands should be executed as root or the postfix user.
I think it should be as root, but would appreciate an expert opinion.
T
On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 14:08 Tom Browder wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 1:13 PM, Tom Browder
> wrote:
> > In another thread we discussed having TLS but no SASL.
> >
> > I have tried the latest experimental Postfix and have dropped back to
> > using v3.2.2.
>
On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 1:13 PM, Tom Browder wrote:
> In another thread we discussed having TLS but no SASL.
>
> I have tried the latest experimental Postfix and have dropped back to
> using v3.2.2.
Please disregard, this "problem" which I'm pretty sure I caused.
I&#x
In another thread we discussed having TLS but no SASL.
I have tried the latest experimental Postfix and have dropped back to
using v3.2.2.
I am using this configuration:
make makefiles CCARGS="-DUSE_TLS -DNO_IP_CYRUS_SASL_AUTH"
I am using the Debian 8 (wheezy) openssl which is 1.0.1t.
During
On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 10:48 Marat Khalili wrote:
> I think your thanks should certainly go to Michael!
You are correct!
Many thanks, Michael! I hope to use that TLS capability soon.
>
> Please tell us how it went.
Definitele, and I'll probably have questions before it's complete.
Best,
On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 10:00 Marat Khalili wrote:
> > IIRC I've implemented client authc based on cert fingerprint maps back
> in winter '99
> > (based on Lutz postfix-tls patches). So yes, it's feasible provided you
> issue personal
> > client certs to all your users.
> >
> > http://www.postfix
On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 08:28 Marat Khalili wrote:
> Hello Tom,
>
> I'm also interested in this question.
>
> On 15/08/17 15:55, Tom Browder wrote:
>
> (2) use TLS client certs for the authentication of the relay clients, and
>
> I see problem with this part. Noth
On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 07:25 Ralph Seichter
wrote:
> On 15.08.2017 14:13, Tom Browder wrote:
>
> > For secure comm between my null client to my smtp server, do I need
> > SASL if I use TLS for authentication also?
>
> That's rather unspecific re what you are tryin
For secure comm between my null client to my smtp server, do I need SASL if
I use TLS for authentication also?
Thanks.
-Tom
On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 10:08 Viktor Dukhovni
wrote:
> > On Jul 26, 2017, at 10:28 AM, Tom Browder wrote:
> > Now my question: is there any future benefit to having tls certs for a
> host name of "smtp.domain.tld" for each "domain.tld" when all domains will
I have been soliciting help from this list for some time now in the process
of planning my new single-server, multi-domain web and mail server, with
domains 'domain1.tld1' through 'domainN.tldN'.
I have been experimenting with Lets Encrypt clients with mixed success,
and, as of this morning, think
On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 14:32 Miles Fidelman
wrote:
> I've had very good luck with Sympa
>
...
There's also groupserver, which does a good job of combining lists with
web-based forum-style access - and is particularly good if your users are
going to be setting up and managing their own lists.
Th
On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 14:01 Geert Stappers wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 02:41:07PM +0000, Tom Browder wrote:
> > I need an mailing list manager (MLM) and plan to eventually use GNU
> Mailman
> 3 (MM3). Until its installation process is easier, I would like to use an
>
I need an mailing list manager (MLM) and plan to eventually use GNU Mailman
3 (MM3). Until its installation process is easier, I would like to use an
interim MLM that is easiest to install. Ideally I would be able to import
mail from the interim MLM into MM3.
Note: I have installed MM2 in the pa
Wow, you must be having a bad day! I hope you feel better soon.
Happy Easter, for He is risen!
Best regards,
-Tom
On Sunday, March 27, 2016, Matthew McGehrin
wrote:
> Fuck off. I don't care about your sorry ass Webmin. This aint the place.
>
>
>
> Tom Browder wrote:
&
I am considering using Webmin on my servers and see that it has a Postfix
module. Does anyone have any experience with it or have an opinion to offer
ref its ability to manage Postfix?
Thanks.
Best regards,
-Tom
On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 3:23 PM, Wietse Venema wrote:
> Wietse:
> [modeline support to turn on/off #comment support]
>
> Tom Browder:
>> I agree, but I was think of a non-default build config define for CCARGS,
>> say,
>> '-DALLOW_TRAILING_COMMENTS',
On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Wietse Venema wrote:
> Tom Browder:
>> On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 11:56 AM, Wietse Venema wrote:
...
>> But, couldn't there be a user option to build Postfix to allow such
>> (or maybe define some special comment character or characters suc
On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 11:56 AM, Wietse Venema wrote:
> Tom Browder:
>> I would love to be able to use comments on the same line as conf and map
>> file entries. That has probably been requested before, but is it a
>> definite WILL NOT?
>
> Definitely. That would r
I would love to be able to use comments on the same line as conf and map
file entries. That has probably been requested before, but is it a
definite WILL NOT?
Best regards,
-Tom
On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 7:04 AM, Tom Browder wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 9, 2016, Curtis Villamizar
> wrote:
>> In message
>>
> ...
>> ps - maybe this will help get you started.
> ...
Okay, I now have a successful start, but need some advice to get fart
On Wednesday, March 9, 2016, Curtis Villamizar wrote:
>
> In message
>
...
> > > You need to instances of smtpd. One on port 587 (MSA) and a mail
> > > transfer agent (MTA) on port 25 which is where the MX record point to.
...
> What an MSA does is well defined in RFC 6409 "Message Submission f
On Tuesday, March 8, 2016, Curtis Villamizar wrote:
> Tom,
>
> I've been following this thread and also not clear on your
> objectives. See inline.
> As Viktor pointed out, look at the examples. Your home machine is a
> "null client". Your remote server is not a "null client" but if set
> up th
On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 1:31 PM, Curtis Villamizar
wrote:
> Tom,
>
> I've been following this thread and also not clear on your
> objectives. See inline.
...
> Fine so far but you haven't said what you expect the postfix MX to do
> with received mail. You have a few choices.
>
> Relay it per dom
On Tuesday, March 8, 2016, Viktor Dukhovni wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 08, 2016 at 05:57:41AM -0600, Tom Browder wrote:
...
> When working with Postfix, try to forget everything related to
> Apache, essentially none of that is relevant to Postfix. Your
> "virtual hosts" are just
On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 10:57 PM, Viktor Dukhovni
wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 07, 2016 at 08:30:54PM -0600, Tom Browder wrote:
>> On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 5:13 PM, Viktor Dukhovni
>> wrote:
>> > On Mon, Mar 07, 2016 at 03:18:11PM -0600, Tom Browder wrote:
>> >> I have
On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 5:13 PM, Viktor Dukhovni
wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 07, 2016 at 03:18:11PM -0600, Tom Browder wrote:
>
>> I have a server with several vhosts. I am working on providing mail
>> services to each with TLS. I have server CA certs and unlocked keys
>> f
I have a server with several vhosts. I am working on providing mail
services to each with TLS. I have server CA certs and unlocked keys
for each individual vhost.
Is the right way to handle that to put ALL the cert and associated
files in the "smtpd_tls_CApath" directory and run "c_rehash" on th
I want to use my local host as a mail server for outgoing mail only. For
example, send mail to my gmail address with no intervening smtp server
except that on my local host.
How can that be done?
Thanks.
Best regards,
-Tom
On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 1:11 PM, Wietse Venema wrote:
...
> I have updated the web page's master copy.
I see that, thanks!
But there is also another bad link there:
+ Howtos and FAQS => Simplifying Mailer Daemons and Associated Tools
by Chuck S. Mead, Jr.
Looking at that link shows the domain
On Sun, Sep 20, 2015 at 1:55 PM, Wietse Venema wrote:
> Tom Browder:
>> Does anyone know of a similar or better article on the same subject
>> that could be linked to instead?
>
> Try: http://www.archive.org
Hm, I tried there with <http://bind8nt.meiway.com/itsaD
I would love to read the article linked to on the web site at
Howtos and FAQs =>
General Email/System Administration =>
Fixing common DNS problems (bind8nt.meiway.com)
but when I click on the link I get:
Internal Server Error
The server encountered an internal error or misconfigur
My new Postfix 3.0.2 setups work fine for my needs so far, but I
notice the log messages do not show a year; however, various logs I've
seen elsewhere do show a year. Is that a config option somewhere?
Thanks.
-Tom
\On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 9:18 AM, Viktor Dukhovni
wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 09:12:37AM -0500, Tom Browder wrote:
...
> Keep in mind that it is simplest to just send the mail with the
> desired purported author (I assume you're looking to change the
> "From:" hea
I would like to know if I can use Postfix for this scenario (I just
need a yes or no, please, and I'll take the next steps with assistance
from this list as necessary):
given
1. a remote server successfully hosting multiple virtual servers
2. my local server from whence I update and maintain
On Sep 17, 2015 10:32 PM, "Noel Jones" wrote:
> On 9/17/2015 9:17 PM, Tom Browder wrote:
> > I have a brand new installation, from source, of Postfix 3.0.2 on
> > Debian 7, 64-bit. I successfully did the initial local tests for
> > postfix as described in "T
On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 9:17 PM, Tom Browder wrote:
> I have a brand new installation, from source, of Postfix 3.0.2 on
> Debian 7, 64-bit. I successfully did the initial local tests for
> postfix as described in "The Book of Postfix." (Note that I have
> virtual se
I have a brand new installation, from source, of Postfix 3.0.2 on
Debian 7, 64-bit. I successfully did the initial local tests for
postfix as described in "The Book of Postfix." (Note that I have
virtual servers but have not yet configured postfix for handling
them.) Then I made my first test fo
On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 2:59 PM, @lbutlr wrote:
>
>> On 18 Aug 2015, at 06:55, Tom Browder wrote:
>>
>> So how should the DNS records look? Can anyone give me the exact
>> settings for the A, CNAME, MX, and PTR records for A.tld and B.tld
>> (and any othe
On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 2:26 AM, L.P.H. van Belle wrote:
Okay, I assume then that this should be the only PTR record:
4.3.2.1.in-addr.arpa. IN PTR B.tld.
>>>
>>> Yes. Provided of course B.tld is The One True Hostname for
>>your server.
>>
>>It is!
>
> No, imo, it is not.. and this s
On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 2:26 AM, L.P.H. van Belle wrote:
Okay, I assume then that this should be the only PTR record:
4.3.2.1.in-addr.arpa. IN PTR B.tld.
>>>
>>> Yes. Provided of course B.tld is The One True Hostname for
>>your server.
>>
>>It is!
>
> No, imo, it is not.. and this s
On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 4:22 PM, Jim Reid wrote:
>
> On 18 Aug 2015, at 22:06, Tom Browder wrote:
>
>> Okay, I assume then that this should be the only PTR record:
>>
>> 4.3.2.1.in-addr.arpa. IN PTR B.tld.
>
> Yes. Provided of course B.tld is The One True Hostnam
On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 3:58 PM, Jim Reid wrote:
> On 18 Aug 2015, at 21:55, Tom Browder wrote:
>> Okay, now assuming my server IP address is 1.2.3.4, do the following
>> DNS records appear reasonable?
>
> No. There should be just one PTR record for an IP address.
Okay, I
On Sun, Aug 16, 2015 at 12:23 PM, Viktor Dukhovni
wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 16, 2015 at 11:44:03AM -0500, Tom Browder wrote:
>> Okay, then I guess I should pick one of the virtual hosts as the domain
>> name and add some arbitrary host then. Does that mean it is then a "real"
On Sun, Aug 16, 2015 at 3:36 PM, @lbutlr wrote:
> On 16 Aug 2015, at 10:44 , Tom Browder wrote:
>> Okay, then I guess I should pick one of the virtual hosts as the domain name
>> and add some arbitrary host then. Does that mean it is then a "real" server
>>
On Aug 16, 2015 1:59 PM, "Viktor Dukhovni"
wrote:
> > > Nothing of the sort. Just give the machine a sensible hostname
> Whether that name has anything to do with your virtual domains or
> not is irrelevant. Pick one of those names if you like, or use
> some other domain name at your disposal.
>
On Aug 16, 2015 12:24 PM, "Viktor Dukhovni"
wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 16, 2015 at 11:44:03AM -0500, Tom Browder wrote:
> > Okay, then I guess I should pick one of the virtual hosts as the domain
> > name and add some arbitrary host then. Does that mean it is then a
"real
On Aug 16, 2015 11:33 AM, "Wietse Venema" wrote:
> > > If this server will send mail directly to the internet, then
myhostname
> > > should be a name that resolves to the internet IP address.
> >
> > Well, the only mail that should be sent is from or through the virtual
> > domains, all of which s
On Aug 16, 2015 10:57 AM, "Wietse Venema" wrote:
> If this server will send mail directly to the internet, then myhostname
> should be a name that resolves to the internet IP address.
Well, the only mail that should be sent is from or through the virtual
domains, all of which share the same IP ad
Thanks to Mark Sapiro, one of the Mailman developers, in 2011 I was able
to get a set of mailing lists for multiple virtual hosts working, and now
I'm in the process of moving to a new server (with the latest versions of
Postfix and MM2 installed from src) and want to get a better feel for some
of
On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 8:38 AM, Noel Jones wrote:
...
> Do not put a virtual domain in mydestination.
>
> mydestination can be set explicitly empty, or can be set to
> "localhost" or eg. "localhost.example.com"
Thanks, Noel, that is very helpful and I don't remember ever seeing
that stated so cl
I am planning to use a single, remotely hosted server with on IP as a
mail server (as well as a web server) for sevral virtual domains. The
server currently has a name but it is of no significance (and is not
identified as belonging) to any of the public domains.
As I understand things, I must ha
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