Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL

cy code maintenance aside? (I tried to phrase it more diplomatically, for > fear of being labeled a troll). > >> From: rauldmil...@gmail.com >> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 01:57:01 -0400 >> To: programm...@jsoftware.com >> Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL >> >>

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL

s why haven't these guys switched to J, legacy code maintenance aside? (I tried to phrase it more diplomatically, for fear of being labeled a troll). > From: rauldmil...@gmail.com > Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 01:57:01 -0400 > To: programm...@jsoftware.com > Subject: Re: [Jprogramming]

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL

Chat forum, maybe? Thanks, -- Raul On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 10:28 AM, 'Dan Baronet' via Programming < programm...@jsoftware.com> wrote: > I don't know if the APL forum is a better place to talk J than the J forum > to talk APL but quickly: > > APL has many variants. Some APLs are J like and no

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL

I don't know if the APL forum is a better place to talk J than the J forum to talk APL but quickly: APL has many variants. Some APLs are J like and no not strand items as in nouns A B C together. Other APLs (most) do. Some APLs like Dyalog offer namespaces, something like locales but they can be

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL

This is probably the wrong forum for this conversation, so I'll just recommend you spend a few minutes over at http://dyalog.com/ Thanks, -- Raul On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 1:53 AM, Jon Hough wrote: > Although I no zero APL, I understand that J was born from APL with an > ASCII character set a

[Jprogramming] J and APL

Although I no zero APL, I understand that J was born from APL with an ASCII character set and some ideas from Backus' languages. And I am aware many J programmers are also APL programmers. So do modern APL dialects provide any functionality not included in J? For example, or counterexample, I do

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Joey K Tuttle wrote: > I have been watching this discussion and mostly smiling and wondering why it > deserves to be in the programming forum You are right - discussions like this (without any implementation in J) probably belong in the chat forum. Thanks, -

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

As did I - of course, memories fade/distort in 40+ years, but I'm pretty sure that iota was I (not i) and epsilon was E (not e)... Even such simple things still cause confusion. I did come to love the APL glyphs and spent many hours making fonts for strange devices like the IBM 6670 laser prin

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

Greg said: >This is what your line becomes after being filtered by an ascii editor (my main editor): ×÷=%_$~<>??¦??¤«»¡¿ in the email source everything was binary (binHex`d) encoded. >If such is required for intelligent communication of J i personally do not want to take that step. Skip rep

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

> Finally, an anecdote. I recently bought a Samsung Galaxy tablet. Wonderful toy, except that it does not display APL characters, at least not "right out of the box". Do y'all really want to deal with that kind of headache? Reading that from Roger, I had a flashback to 1973. I was in IBM UKSC P

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

Steven Taylor wrote: > Maybe someone could write a book about, "Is there hope for mortals?" Just so happens I'm collecting notes for a tongue-in-cheek monograph (pls pm me with contributions): "Evidence for Intelligent Design in the Emergence of IT Products" ...as things stand I'll be concluding by

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

Hi everyone, The 2D view of the language was something that I played around with a few years ago. Here is a blog post that includes a screencast attempting to explain the '~" adverb that also incorporated that view. The visual representation is predominant in the second half of the video. Thin

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

Skip >This is what your line becomes after being filtered by an ascii editor (my >main editor): ×÷=%_$~<>??¦??¤«»¡¿ in the email source everything was binary (binHex`d) encoded. >If such is required for intelligent communication of J i personally do not >want to take that step. >At this

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

I installed J on my Samsung Galaxy Note 2 phone, and it's really handy. The install was simple, and it's fairly easy to use. Not too many hassles with keyboards or character sets, though I had to deal with setting the default keyboard for J. I wouldn't want to give up that ease of use, to just try

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

On 10 April 2013 18:06, Roger Hui wrote: > The answer to the last question in your message is, probably not. :-) thanks for correcting my artistic licensed. I was wondering how long I could talk before someone who really knew chimed in. ;-) "Do y'all really want to deal with that kind of hea

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

The answer to the last question in your message is, probably not. :-) The design process of APL/J can be illustrated by a couple of stories, and a couple of papers. The paper are: - *The Evolution of APL , *especially the Transcript of Presentat

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

On 10 April 2013 15:41, Ian Clark wrote: > I've spent a lot of time nibbling away at the edges of this very problem. sometimes it makes sense: http://lesscss.org/. Sometimes not: https://github.com/kripken/emscripten/wiki. For some crazy reason this one appeals to me: http://trydecaf.org/. .

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 3:08 AM, Skip Cave wrote: > However, APL graphically relates the boolean OR and AND (v, upside-down v), > while in J those two primitives are graphically unrelated (+. *.). Then > there are primitives whose monadic functions aren't related, but whose > dyadic functions are

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

Steven Taylor wrote: Take the APL character idea a little beyond intellisense, and state it another way it becomes write in APL and render / compile to J. I'm less comfortable with that. I've spent a lot of time nibbling away at the edges of this very problem. But now you put it like that, I have

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

"I have never seen any context where code in visual studio can be emailed to someone else and "it'll just work"." It wont. VS is clunky in this regard. The VS team is working at resolving this on a number of fronts, but they're not there yet. That reference was to J code (it'll just work). "J

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

Devon, You present some great points. As you indicate, there are some J primitives that are related graphically and functionality (+ +. +:) where the equivalent APL glyphs (+, v, no-equivalent) aren't related graphically. However, APL graphically relates the boolean OR and AND (v, upside-down v),

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 5:48 PM, Steven Taylor wrote: > I'm curious to see what Greg cooks up. I am in VS most days, so I'm bound > to check it out. ... > Do the lessons of html, css, js, jsv, json apply here? It's nice being > able to send an email with some code, and it'll just work. I have ne

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

Given that this feature has generated quite some interest I will give it higher priority. At the expense of syntax coloring/context-sensitive intellisense, for the initial stage. Something to play with, pretty dumb but illustrating the concept, just to get a feel. On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 4:48 PM,

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

just want to point out that I'm Steven Taylor, not Stephen Taylor. I've met Stephen once. He was the editor of Vector magazine in the UK... so, I don't want to create any heat for Stephen. ;-) "APL character set actually *enhances* the unification of similar notions" I hope so. I remember a c

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

Amen brother :-) On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 12:55 PM, Skip Cave wrote: > Stephen, > > I agree that making libraries and argument conventions more accessible > would take a significant step toward smoothing the J learning curve. > However, there is just something elegant about Iverson's notation tha

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

Stephen, I agree that making libraries and argument conventions more accessible would take a significant step toward smoothing the J learning curve. However, there is just something elegant about Iverson's notation that attracts people, eases the learning curve, and keeps diehard programmers using

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

I still think making the libraries + argument conventions more navigable would be a more productive and better received application of the VS IDE. I did enjoy seeing Mark Simpsons APL to J mappings. Visually things like square root and not made more sense. With this symbol variation approach I'd

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

As I go through this discussion, I think I have gotten over my dislike of using the APL character set to replace many, if not most of the 1-2 ASCII character symbols for J primitives. Ken did much too good a job of designing the APL glyphs, and each APL glyph does a great job of hinting at its spec

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

Remember I.P. Sharp's APL CHARACTER ROM chip? I've still got mine! (But not its trusty IBM 8086 PC.) PMA wrote: Perhaps Wm meant something that _looks_ like an overstrike character without being physically entered as such. Either way, kudos. PMA wrote: There we go! This sounds neat in just th

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

Perhaps Wm meant something that _looks_ like an overstrike character without being physically entered as such. Either way, kudos. PMA wrote: There we go! This sounds neat in just the way I'd hoped, especially now with Wm's mention of _overstrikes_ for J. Not so far, maybe, from the best of bo

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

There we go! This sounds neat in just the way I'd hoped, especially now with Wm's mention of _overstrikes_ for J. Not so far, maybe, from the best of both worlds. BTW, I'd suspected that some of J's command groupings make less sense than others. That's why I said "change, perhaps...". Skip Ca

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

We have to be careful when we make the assumption that there will only be a standard 110-key keyboard with every computing device from now on. Or that keyboards will be unable to change the labels on their keys arbitrarily. Or that all input will always be done by typing on a keyboard. The availab

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

PMA wrote: > Ok, saying "any" was my bad. Not at all, you were perfectly clear in context. I just found myself unable to echo you without the same context, so I had to provide additional information. > But I want to convey that > for me this relatedness -- the primitive set as a family -- > is m

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

Ok, saying "any" was my bad. But I want to convey that for me this relatedness -- the primitive set as a family -- is more important than my getting to type just 1 token instead of 2. I hope that a winning 1-token-command design will do utmost to emulate -- change, perhaps, but not dilute or tra

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

Skip Cave wrote: > William, > You are overlooking the option of writing the single-character glyphs on a > touchscreen, using handwriting recognition. That sounds like a pleasant way to augment a keyboard-based entry if we decide to go with glyphs that don't resemble the underlying characters --

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

William, You are overlooking the option of writing the single-character glyphs on a touchscreen, using handwriting recognition. That solves the problem of symbol entry, as your input will match the visual output, thus there is no memorization of key sequences required. You could use a hard or soft

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

PMA wrote: > Yes, if the relatedness within each primitive set gets lost, > won't a need for 3-to-6 times the number of J primitives > virtually cancel any one-token-per-command advantage? No, it won't cancel "any" (by which I mean "all") of the advantage. But yes, it will lose SOME. It's a trade

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

Yes, if the relatedness within each primitive set gets lost, won't a need for 3-to-6 times the number of J primitives virtually cancel any one-token-per-command advantage? Devon McCormick wrote: This is nice but avoids the hard parts of the problem. It's easy to say that "i." is "iota", but wh

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

Devon McCormick wrote: > This is nice but avoids the hard parts of the problem. Sure, it's a proof of concept rather than an implementation. It serves a different purpose -- rather than solving the entire problem, it solves the problem of people doubting whether it would really look and feel OK.

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

There's something to be said for solving investing one's efforts in the problems which are easy to solve. -- Raul On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 1:50 PM, Devon McCormick wrote: > This is nice but avoids the hard parts of the problem. > > It's easy to say that "i." is "iota", but where does "i:" fit in?

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

This is nice but avoids the hard parts of the problem. It's easy to say that "i." is "iota", but where does "i:" fit in? In J, the "dot" and "colon" versions of a verb often have a a fitting relation, e.g. "+" is addition, "+." is logical "or", and (monadic) "+:" is "double"; analogously, "*" is

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

That really is magnificent -- and I speak as someone who stopped trying to learn APL (before J was easily available) because I found the character set unapproachable. I could easily see myself switching to that overlay for normal coding and reading. I'd like to see this developed into a coherent s

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

That is awesome Marc! Skip On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 11:54 AM, Marc Simpson wrote: > Personally, I think this is a neat idea and one worth pursuing. I tried > something similar in Emacs using overlays a while back (Don might recall > this). Examples from that experiment: > > http://0branch.com/sni

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

This is so beautiful, thank you Mark for sharing that! On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 11:54 AM, Marc Simpson wrote: > Personally, I think this is a neat idea and one worth pursuing. I tried > something similar in Emacs using overlays a while back (Don might recall > this). Examples from that experiment

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

Personally, I think this is a neat idea and one worth pursuing. I tried something similar in Emacs using overlays a while back (Don might recall this). Examples from that experiment: http://0branch.com/snippets/j-symbols3.png http://0branch.com/snippets/j-symbols4.png (The left and right pane are

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

In my mind, which I probably didn't convey in writing clearly, the APL symbols mentioning were meant mostly to convey an idea; the use of single symbols which are closer to one is used with in math world. Without having to re-write J engine, but just for display inside editor. I would have used APL

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

I wonder, could you propose an actual assignment on what APL symbols you'd use for what in J? What would you do with the cases when J uses the same or similar symbol for very different functions than classical APL (such as semicolons, brackets, tilde, star), and when J pairs monadic and dyadic ver

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

. >> Once you do, the current vocabulary works well, _very_ well in fact, >> and is not the major obstacle perceived by some APLers. Getting used >> to the pervasiness of rank is much much more challenging. >> >> ~ Gilles >> >> >> -- Original Message

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

Android voice recognition already works like that to some extent. If you say the word "plus" in a sentence the letters "plus" appear in the text. If you say "plus" between saying two numbers the symbol "+" appears. But I haven't found a word to generate the "enter" key. On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 7:4

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

Wow, these are such great ideas. I only thought of the ASCII to symbol display conversion, didn't think of the other possibilities. Especially about speaking your programs. My hands start to have problems from the too much keyboard typing, speaking my programs would be so desirable at this stage...

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

P.S, If each symbol is given a unique name, we could simply SPEAK our programs into our editor. Skip -- Skip Cave Cave Consulting LLC -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

All, I tend to agree with Devon & Giles, in that using the standard APL character set for J is not a very good idea. For one thing, a primitive in J may often have subtly different functionality than the a similar primitive in APL, which could cause considerable confusion for those using both lang

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

les -- Original Message --- From: Steven Taylor To: Programming forum Sent: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 17:59:40 +0100 Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols "Selling current J editors to somebody who is doing their programming in Visual Studio all day long, it's a hard sel

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

~ Gilles > > > -- Original Message --- > From: Steven Taylor > To: Programming forum > Sent: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 17:59:40 +0100 > Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols > > > "Selling current J editors to somebody who is doing their > > p

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols > "Selling current J editors to somebody who is doing their > programming in Visual Studio all day long, it's a hard sell. They'll > most probably just laugh at you..." > > For me, I don't mind making an exception w

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

"Selling current J editors to somebody who is doing their programming in Visual Studio all day long, it's a hard sell. They'll most probably just laugh at you..." For me, I don't mind making an exception when it comes to maths based functional / vector based stuff... but opening up J to other deve

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

Just curious (with no intention to use that ever), can J be used as a plugin in visual studio? Пт, 05 апр 2013, Greg Borota писал(а): > Selling current J editors to somebody who is doing their programming in > Visual Studio all day long, it's a hard sell. They'll most probably just > laugh at you.

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

Selling current J editors to somebody who is doing their programming in Visual Studio all day long, it's a hard sell. They'll most probably just laugh at you... And when you deal with huge programs developed over timespans like years and with many developers, biological memory starts to show its l

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

I'd like better VS integration, but I can't really justify the effort needed since JHS / GTK are refreshingly simple + cross-platform. I am looking forward to trying out Chris' new IDE too. On APL symbols... I still only know a few of them. Intellisense to the dictionary would be more useful (ie

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

My work would be usable only by those who can run Visual Studio binaries, either the paid ones (preferably and easier) or the free Visual Studio Shell. On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Raul Miller wrote: > What Greg was describing would be optional (and out of scope for many > users). > > FYI, >

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

Yes those are the file it seems. Bill Lam already pointed me to them before. Also Devon pointed me to Emacs elisp files that are used to have syntax coloring in Emacs. So I think I could just re-use some of that work. On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:46 PM, Raul Miller wrote: > Keeping in mind that I'v

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

What Greg was describing would be optional (and out of scope for many users). FYI, -- Raul On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 4:50 PM, Peter B. Kessler wrote: > I hope you can make this kind of change uniform, so that if I were debugging > or tracing, etc., I saw my program in the same character set that

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

I hope you can make this kind of change uniform, so that if I were debugging or tracing, etc., I saw my program in the same character set that I used to write my program. Otherwise I can't use the powerful parallel processor that is my vision system to match things up.

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

Keeping in mind that I've never worked with gtk and I'm just discovering this stuff for myself... I'm seeing xml files at least some of which mention GtkSourceView: http://www.jsoftware.com/websvn/wsvn/public/trunk/ide/gtk/source/config/classic.xml http://www.jsoftware.com/websvn/wsvn/public/trunk

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

Which is why I asked a while ago where GTK Term lexer file was located in SVN... On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:02 PM, Raul Miller wrote: > You still have to define the rules. > > -- > Raul > > On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Greg Borota wrote: > > I think lexical analysis (if I recall correctly for

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

You still have to define the rules. -- Raul On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Greg Borota wrote: > I think lexical analysis (if I recall correctly form school days time) > would help you with this. Which GTK terminal already does I think. This is > independent of J Engine. > > > On Thu, Apr 4, 20

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

I think lexical analysis (if I recall correctly form school days time) would help you with this. Which GTK terminal already does I think. This is independent of J Engine. On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 2:46 PM, Raul Miller wrote: > The first thing to do, I think, would be to identify which character >

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

The first thing to do, I think, would be to identify which character sequences get replaced (and when and where). For example, does $ (without a trailing . or :) get replaced with a rho? And, if so, is this universal (even in literal contexts?) Thanks, -- Raul On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:44 PM, G

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

What I have in mind is just a display thing. Say you Select All and Copy/Paste the content of the editor window, you still get ASCII chars only. E.g: In GTK Term whenever you enter y as the verb argument it changes color and becomes italic (at least under Windows). What if you were to display the

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

I am uncomfortable using J's ~ mechanism to find the user's home directory, since J makes a point of not abstracting the OS concept of a user home directory. That said: jpath '~' gives my my home directory on a mac (but not on windows) and jpath '~user' gives me a directory name within my h

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

I'm not sure this is really such a good idea. J is its own language and mapping some J symbols to APL ones could be misleading. Also, as much as I like the look of APL, I'm happy not to deal with the continuing hiccups caused by the character set. At last year's APL Moot, I showed my fellow moot

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

I think it might be a quicker path to use ASCII behind the scenes still but have some editor/term software (Visual Studio in this case) display words of interest as APL symbols. Like in MS Word where you type (c) and it's automatically displayed as Copyright Symbol ©. This could even be an Options

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

What a wonderful idea! I wish I had the competence & time to pursue it. Pete J. Patrick Harrington wrote: ... My dream would be to have J expressible in APL-like characters (there isn't a one-to-one correspondance, though most symbols could be carried over). Then J could have two forms, like

Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Greg Borota wrote: Visual Studio let's you take a plain ASCII file and display it however you want. There is an elaborate API that one can tap into to customize how the file gets displayed inside the editor. The editor is WPF based so there is no limit to what one can display (

[Jprogramming] J and APL symbols

Visual Studio let's you take a plain ASCII file and display it however you want. There is an elaborate API that one can tap into to customize how the file gets displayed inside the editor. The editor is WPF based so there is no limit to what one can display (you can display even movies :-) insid