ce is the default:
# No space between args
print sep="", arg, arg, arg
Heck, why not even make it a function:
# Insert enough spaces between args to align to 8-char boundaries
print sep=tabToNext( 8 ), arg, arg, arg
Finally, there
erpreted by the parser. And I
> could call that ugly, hard to implement, etc.
No worries. My purpose here is to "think the unthinkable", not to
argue that I'm right. I often throw out wild ideas at my work;
occasionally I hit a bullseye. In the mean time, criticism is
welcome an
-- A path-globbing function that supports the
perforce-style syntax "..." (three dots) to mean "all descendants".
So for example, "foo/.../*.cpp" matches any cpp files in
foo or any of its subdirectories.
That should be enough for the moment.
-- Talin
_
Alex Martelli gmail.com> writes:
> for k, v in sorted(d.iteritems()):
Ah, thanks! I didn't know that worked. (The missing piece was
that I wasn't aware that relative comparisons worked on
tuples. I even looked in the library reference manual under
"sequence types")
> A module can be imported se
mon usage pattern for
a particular source file to be run as both a main and as an imported
module. Suppose you have a bunch of test data that is in a subdir
of your source file. You'd like to be able to have a single, uniform
way to locate your module's data, regardless if you are __mai
ath.dirname( __file__ )
for name in os.listdir( dirname ):
if fnmatch.fnmatch( name, "*.py" ) and name != "__init__.py":
mod = __import__( "%s.%s" % ( __name__, os.path.splitext( name )[ 0 ] )
)
Perhaps the answer i
==> "(800) 555-1212"
Here's a link to a reference page for the various formatting options:
http://blog.stevex.net/index.php/string-formatting-in-csharp/
In general, I would be very much in favor of a convention that allows mixed
positional and named arguments. As much as I like the %
the code is going to be so different from
2.x that there won't be any possibility of automated migration - unless
you decide up front that the use of generics is going to be restrained and
controlled, at least initially.
Personally I'm fine with breaking from the past. But I
and __getitem__ have fewer side effects than __call__.
All right I'm done. Back to my other Python programming... :)
-- Talin
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was implemented as a generator -- thus, if there was an ambiguous
match, it returned all of the possible matches in sequence. It attempted
to order the matches so that the most specific matches were returned
first (although my metric of specificity was rather loose.)
-- Talin
y I can't make the
> April 17 deadline.
Have a look at reflex.py (in the cheese shop), a very tiny, bare-bones lexer
which is intended for just this sort of thing. (Well, it can be used for bigger
things too - I've managed to implement a complete
metadata to terms of the expression.
Just a thought, not to be taken too seriously...
-- Talin
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ys wondered if it would be possible to invent a
"comprehension- style" syntax for reduce. I have absolutely no good
ideas on this one, even though I've been pondering it for years...
6) Although I would not want to propose that Python ado
er than that, the code seems cleaner to me -
in other words, we concern ourselves only test part of the match first,
and only after we've determined that there is a match, we start to look at
the specific attributes of the match.
-- Talin
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Talin acm.org> writes:
> 2) A suggestion which I've seen others bring up before is the use of
> the * operator for tuple packing / unpacking operations, i.e.:
>
> a, *b = (1, 2, 3)
I wanted to add another case that I run across in my code a lot.
I often times want t
Guido van Rossum python.org> writes:
> On 4/15/06, Talin acm.org> wrote:
> > Another grab-bag of language ideas / wishes. Some of these are
> > items that have been raised before on other lists - I want to get them
> > written down so that they can be rejected quickly
's what folks want ::)
(One of the things I've been doing is going through my codebase looking
for coding patterns that are awkward attempts to get around language
limitations.)
PS. I meant to change the title of that last post as well - could whoever
rep
with
the positional argumens.
The important thing is that the behavior be clear and unambiguous,
which I think this is.
-- Talin
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Paul Moore gmail.com> writes:
>
> On 4/17/06, Terry Reedy udel.edu> wrote:
> >
> > "Talin" acm.org> wrote in message
> > news:loom.20060417T072709-664 post.gmane.org...
> > > The important thing is that the behavior be clear and unambigu
Greg Ewing canterbury.ac.nz> writes:
> Talin wrote:
>
> > In this case, however, I don't see why we can't have the keyword
> > arguments out of order.
>
> But what's the *benefit* of being allowed to write that?
>
> > The important
n the interpreter would use it,
otherwise it would fall back to the older means of transforming the arguments
into a tuple and a dict.
In any case, the reason why this is "Py3K" material is that it involves
busting the existing C API to some extent.
-- Talin
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details of operation that a prototype should be fairly straightforward.
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library, that takes an
int and a number base? (The name is horrid, I know.)
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is point,
but if there is a consensus on both the "keywords after *args" and
"keyword only" arguments, I can write up a PEP for that, if that
would be useful.
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Talin acm.org> writes:
> I decided to take some of the ideas discussed in the string formatting
> thread, add a few touches of my own, and write up a PEP.
>
> http://viridia.org/python/doc/PEP_AdvancedStringFormatting.txt
>
> (I've also submitted the PEP via the norma
ed to supply a value for 'x', that would be an error in the second
example, but not the first.
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Giovanni Bajo develer.com> writes:
> Talin wrote:
>
> > http://viridia.org/python/doc/PEP_AdvancedStringFormatting.txt
>
> Some comments:
Excellent feedback. I won't address everything at once - instead I'd like to
collect feedback from various people and
Guido van Rossum python.org> writes:
> FWIW Talin, if you're writing up a PEP for this, could I ask you to
> also specify a new introspection API? A function foo should have a
> magic attribute foo.__signature__ which provides access to the
> argument names and defaults
ser knows that they are paying the cost for the conversion.
"Explicit is better than implicit".
-- Talin
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gt; dictionary-like objects, and requires a dictionary copy whenever an
> actual dictionary is used.
Right. Let me think about this one.
> In the case of positional arguments it is currently an error if you
> don't use all your positional arguments with %. Would it be an error in
> this case?
I dunno. It certainly could be implemented that way, but I am not sure why it
should be.
> Should the custom formatter get any opportunity to finalize the
> formatted string (e.g., "here's the finished string, give me what you
> want to return")?
Easier to just pass the string to a function I think.
Great stuff Ian, thanks for spending the time to write such a detailed critique.
-- Talin
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flattening it via
**args?
5) Should the implementation attempt to detect unused arguments?
I'd like to get some sense of the answers before the next revision of the PEP.
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s a keyword argument; or
it could be in the **kwargs dict.
I'm not saying that solving this is impossible; what I am saying is that its:
-- slow
-- makes the example very complicated and hard to understand.
And, as we all know, if its hard to understand then its probably wrong.
--
nal version in any way. There is already a list of things to
> consider and I am sure there are some things discussed during the new
> parameter list ideas that could stand to be worked in. I am quite
> happy to work on finishing this PEP so that Talin can focus on the
> parameter list
I've submitted the "Keyword-Only Arguments" PEP that we've been discussing. You
can also read it here:
http://www.viridia.org/python/doc/PEP_KeywordOnlyArguments.txt
-- Talin
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ht
Bill Birch tpg.com.au> writes:
>
> On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 05:36 am, Talin wrote:
> > precondition( y=NotNegative )
> > def power( x, y ):
> >...
> > ...where 'NotNegative' is a function which simply does an assert( value >=
> 0 )
> The
facilitate additional metaprogramming in
Python, with the tiniest possible changes to the language; Don't feel limited to
just the discussion of quoting and variable references, but don't let it stray
(please) beyond the parameters of what I've set. Thanks :)
-- Talin
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Ivan Krstic fas.harvard.edu> writes:
> Talin wrote:
> > Anyway, I wanted to throw this out there for discussion. I'm mainly
> > interested in a discussion of ways that we could facilitate
> > additional metaprogramming in Python, with the tiniest possible changes
nd (b)
because something like this may go into the interpreter, and we don't want to
add a dependency on re.
Anyway, if you have an idea as to how things should behave differently - feel
free to hack this, play with it, test ou
llow you to do
anything you can't do already, it just saves a few characters of typing. From
what I have seen on these lists, proposals like that generally don't go over
well. (Although if you can figure out a way to save a *whole lot* of typing,
that might be a different story.)
--
Ian Bicking colorstudy.com> writes:
>
> Talin wrote:
> > Here's a condensed list of the open issues that have been raised by people
> > so far:
> >
> > (Well, edited somewhat - I'm including 'major' issues, not minor nits -- we
&g
Jim Jewett gmail.com> writes:
>
> On 4/22/06, Talin acm.org> wrote:
> > Here's a condensed list of the open issues that have been raised by people
> > so far:
>
> I'm not sure whether this was raised explicitly, but Ian at least
> mentioned it:
Ian Bicking colorstudy.com> writes:
>
> Talin wrote:
> >>>Here's a condensed list of the open issues that have been raised by people
> >>>so far:
> >>
> >>I'm not sure whether this was raised explicitly, but Ian at least
> >>
special cases in the
interpreter should take second or third place behind that goal, IMHO.
The fact is that sorting happens a *lot*. Sorting with key= happens a lot. A
large proportion of my list comprehensions involve sorting or ordering of one
form or another, and the number of ugly sorted + key + lambda e
t { } would be equivalent to dict(
). This means using '=' instead of ':' and allowing key names to be bare words
instead of quoted strings. So you could write:
{ name="Frodo", race="Hobbit" }
instead of:
{ 'name':'Frodo',
My gut
tells me that there's something here worth looking into, but I haven't
put my finger on it yet.
(Isn't it interesting how often we programmers, who pride ourselves on our
use of logic and reason, so often use intuition and hunches to solve
problems?)
-- Talin
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rmat( indirect_args=mydict )
3) Bring back field expressions:
"{0.name}".format( mydict )
(Perhaps the '.' operator can mean both '.' and '[]' depending on the type of
the object.)
-- Talin
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I've submitted the most recent revisions of the string formatting PEP to the pep
editor; In the mean time, you can read it here:
http://www.viridia.org/python/doc/PEP_AdvancedStringFormatting2.txt
-- Talin
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aces:
{1, 2, 3}
A set with a single element is:
{1,}
In other words, we steal the idea from tuples - a trailing comma is used as a
way to signal that this is a comma-separated list of one item.
A set with no elements is:
set()
Alternatively, you could take the tuple idea one step fu
itrary preconditions to be added to specific
parameters.
3) alternative dispatch decorator: Using the signature API, implement an
alternative dispatch method. This could be something as simple as matching
argument names - so if you call "func( a=3 )" it searches for a version
So instead of having to write:
s = set()
You can now write:
s = \u03d1
:) :) :) :) :) :)
-- Talin
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p function calling; What it does is open up a
broad range of optimization possibilities. The simpler the recieving
function's signature, the more room the compiler will have to be able
to cull out unneeded parts of the argument assignment logic.
-- Talin
Given that strings are going to be unicode, will there be a "characters"
data type to go along with the "bytes" data type? And how is the bytes
data type different from the existing array type?
-- Talin
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#x27;ve seen some toolkits that only allowed UIs to be loaded from a file.
Finally, I would say that anyone attempting to create a GUI toolkit
should be familiar with a variety of the standard GUI APIs out there.
I would suggest that familiarity with Qt, XUL, and either Java/Swing
or .N
Guido van Rossum python.org> writes:
> On 5/1/06, Talin acm.org> wrote:
> > Given that strings are going to be unicode, will there be a "characters"
> > data type to go along with the "bytes" data type?
>
> No. I'm not sure what you mean b
Guido van Rossum python.org> writes:
> On 5/2/06, Talin acm.org> wrote:
> > It appears that my question has been misunderstood by everyone; I'll try
> > to phrase it better:
> >
> > The short version is: will there be a mutable character array typ
hould be fairly straightforward, and the
only tricky part is re-implementing the behaviors of the current
conversion specifiers.
-- Talin
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'naked star' syntax anyway over the objections, and
explain the rationale in the docs;
3) Come up with a separator character we can agree on
4) Come up with a brilliantly-devised alternative
Thoughts?
-- Talin
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If we feel that tree views (for a class hierarchy view) or toolbars
with tooltips are imporant, then the candidates for the UI toolkit should
be able to support that.
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well as make the mockup program available for download.
At the same time, the web site should be reorganized. For example,
the change list should not be on the front page. The project should
probably have its own dedicated mailing list, or at least a wiki.
Once that is done, you will hav
should stay a statement; If you want to add a functional
equivalent, that's fine, but the simplicity of the current statement is a win.
(Plus I like not having to type the parens; the less delimiters, the more
readable the code IMHO.)
-- Talin
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Greg Ewing canterbury.ac.nz> writes:
> Talin wrote:
>
> > 1) Getting rid of 'callable'.
> >
> > The reccomended replacement is "just call the object and catch the resulting
> > exception",
>
> No, the recommended replacement sh
his particular case could be done without 'callable', since you
could test for string type, and assume callable otherwise. However, that's
not always going to be the case.)
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If we take that to its logical extreme, then we should be
using Lisp, since there's only a single syntactical constructs to
learn and explain.
To my mind, the purpose of syntax is to act as a scaffolding to
hold ideas in place in a way that allows us to easily recognize them.
To that extent
Thomas Wouters python.org> writes:
> On 5/7/06, Talin acm.org> wrote:
>
> > How about instead of 'callable', an "isFunction' test to go alongwith
> > 'isSequence' and 'isMapping'. (You aren't getting rid of those
> > -
Greg Ewing wrote:
> Talin wrote:
>
>> How about instead of 'callable', an "isFunction' test to go along
>> with 'isSequence' and 'isMapping'. (You aren't getting rid of those -
>> I hope...?)
>
>
> Yes, we are! And
Jim Jewett gmail.com> writes:
> On 5/8/06, Talin acm.org> wrote:
> > Before we go to much further on this point, I want to get a sense of
> > what exactly people are objecting to:
>
> > -- Are they saying that interface discovery is not important, or is
> &
glass / Wait
Sizing cursors: left/right, up/down, NE/SW, NW/SE
I-beam cursor
Hand / Drag cursor
Standard Alerts:
Notice
Warning
Error
-- Talin
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Phillip J. Eby wrote:
> At 06:19 AM, 9 May 2006 +0000, Talin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> In Haskell, interfaces are defined using "typeclasses". A typeclass is
> basically a collection of generic functions. For example, you could
> define a "sortable&
ct Directory
>> Color Chooser
>> Font Chooser
>>
>>Standard application dialogs:
>>
>> Caption + Single button (notify)
>> Caption + Two buttons
>> Caption + Text Entry + Two buttons
>>
>>Standard cursors:
>>
>> Arrow
>
eed to search for another solution.
Actually, there's one other concern, which is - how
efficient is this? Compared to, say, calling isSequence()?
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discuss this specific
proposal.
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Michael Chermside mcherm.com> writes:
> Talin writes:
> > Lets start a new top-level thread to discuss this specific
> > proposal.
>
> tomer filiba writes:
> > i'm sure my idea has flaws, but i'm very much pro-changing the type system.
>[.
ential* to be added, and 99% of the time that's all
we really need to know.
Duck typing isn't about wanting a duck, its about wanting
an object that has waddling and quacking capabilities.
-- Talin
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ss you are using .Net,
in which case you probably *want* to replace the color dialog :)
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ve used almost two
dozen different UI frameworks over the years, not counting the half
dozen or so I've created for different employers, going all the way back
to the days of the Amiga. [Anyone remember "Gadtools"? Or the Commodore
Installer?])
-- Talin
__
I completely abdicated the role of designer -
it was still my duty and my right to be the judge of what features
should go in and what shouldn't. But if those judgements aren't informed
by the needs of the people out there who would be using my work, then
there's no justification
to add
special types of tooltips. In the current system I'm working with, I use
it for visual animation effects.
-- Talin
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window would be extremely useful.
So my thought is this: How hard would it be to make
a curses-based debugger?
This gives me what I want, without requiring a GUI toolkit
be shipped with the standard libs.
(Could that be a possible Summer of Code project?)
-- Talin
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k a
mouse button; The rest of the time its all native code.
-- Talin
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Guido van Rossum wrote:
> [Talin]
>
>> Ordinarily I would agree with you on this point, and in fact I
>> wouldn't even bring it up at all, except for two data points:
>>
>> 1) The proposal to include generic function dispatch
>>in Python 3000, based
't forgotten that you asked me to write up a PEP for a signature
API in conjunction with the keyword arguments PEP. However, I don't yet
feel that the ideas have gelled enough to do so yet -- or at least, I
don't feel competent to come up with a definative solution.
-- Talin
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from porting it to any other platform, except
that TrollTech won't help you do it :)
-- Talin
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m pairs can be iterated over
-- Test: hasattr( iteritems )
Marcin 'Qrczak' Kowalczyk wrote:
> Talin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>
>>sequence( indexable ):
>>-- an indexable in which the indexes are successive integers
>>-- Test: isinstance( i
tem__ method and make its decision based on that.
Steven Bethard wrote:
> On 5/11/06, Talin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>sequence( indexable ):
>>-- an indexable in which the indexes are successive integers
>>-- Test: isinstance( index_type, int )
>
>
&
Nick Coghlan wrote:
> Talin wrote:
>
>> I haven't forgotten that you asked me to write up a PEP for a
>> signature API in conjunction with the keyword arguments PEP. However,
>> I don't yet feel that the ideas have gelled enough to do so yet -- or
>> at
Guido van Rossum wrote:
> On 5/11/06, Talin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> The word 'sequence' here doesn't mean an exclusive category. In a sense,
>> all sequences are really mappings - they "map" a range of integers to
>> values.
>
>
ators had the overload.
Testing for signatures, how about something like this:
def function( f:concepts.function( concepts.iterable, int ) )
Which describes a function that takes an argument which is
a function that takes an iterable and an int.
-- Talin
Marcin 'Qrczak' Kowalczyk wrote:
> Talin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>
>> # Use as a function argument constraint
>> @generic
>> def flatten( x:concepts.iterable ):
>> ...
>>
>> # Another overload
>> @generic
ll
need to be able to handle ambiguity (at the very minimum, by reporting
it as an error.) But "fuzzy logic" can be just as formal and
well-defined as "crisp logic".
-- Talin
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lf.w = w
self.h = h
def from_pos_size( self, position:Point, size:Size ):
self.x, self.y = position.x, position.y
self.w, self.h = size.w, size.h
def from_ul_lr( self, ulpos:Point, lrpos:Point ):
self.x, self.y = ulpos.x, lrpos.y
self.w = lrpos.x
n an int produces an int, and the second
argument, a function which takes an int and produces an int. The
function itself returns an int."
Side note: I'm actually in favor of the idea of Python adding
syntactical support for operators that have no "
s for RPC calls.
7) Method to declare functions that communicate with statically-typed
libraries or network protocols.
8) Optimized code generation for Python native-code compilers.
-- Talin
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Guido van Rossum wrote:
> On 5/19/06, Talin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Side note: I'm actually in favor of the idea of Python adding
>> syntactical support for operators that have no "built-in" definition.
>> The use case would be for
Guido van Rossum wrote:
> On 5/20/06, Talin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> As far as how to pick the set of operators, well my notion on that was
>> to come up with a list of general mathematical and logical concepts, and
>> see if any would be useful as
The 3100 PEP has an item which states "Reorganize the standard library
to not be as shallow". I presume that there are already numerous
proposals for a new library organization; Is there a list of links that
someone can post so that I could check them out? Thanks.
y it is. I think
'typeof' is a reasonably good name for the query function.
(In fact, the first time I tried to use type( x ), I accidentally typed
'typeof( x )'. So this is one data point as to how intuitive the name is.)
-- Talin
_
t this point, I have to admit that I've completely lost track of the
discussion (and I've read all the messages) - what exactly is it that
we're trying to accomplish here?
Would some kind person please do me a favor and summarize what the
iss
botparser, etc.
xml.* - xml-related packages
Example: xml.sax
media.audio - audio packages
media.image - image conversion packages
rexec - rename to 'restrict' (Too much confusion with 'regex')
python - python language services (compiler, parser, et
elf.
(I'm also continuing to work on 3101, expect a new rev soon.)
-- Talin
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tomer filiba wrote:
> talin asked for comments, so
>
> def f(a, b, *, c, d)
>
> seems wrong to me. '*' can't be a token on its own, at least
> that's the way i see it. opeators shouldn't stand for themselves.
> just like the {/} (empty set) was rej
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