Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

On 9/1/2011 11:59 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: I believe that the deprecation of the digraphs as separate letters occurred as the telephone became widely used in Spain, and the telephone company demanded an official proclamation from whatever Ministry is responsible for culture that it was OK

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

Greg Ewing, 02.09.2011 02:36: Guido van Rossum wrote: But in a word like "coëxistentie" (coexistence) the o and e do not form the oe-sound, and to emphasize this to Dutch readers (who believe their spelling is very logical :-), the official spelling puts the umlaut on the e. Sometimes this is

Re: [Python-Dev] Python 3 optimizations continued...

On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 2:37 PM, stefan brunthaler wrote: > I hope this clarifies a *lot* and makes it easier to see what parts > are involved and how all the pieces fit together. It does, thanks. There are likely to be some fun corner cases relating to trace functions and use of the "locals()" bu

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

Antoine Pitrou wrote: I don't think some American souvenir shop is a good reference, though :) (for example, there's no Paris street named "château de Versailles") Hmmm, I'd assumed they were reproductions of actual street signs found in Paris, but maybe not. :-( -- Greg _

Re: [Python-Dev] Python 3 optimizations continued...

Hi, as promised, I created a publicly available preview of an implementation with my optimizations, which is available under the following location: https://bitbucket.org/py3_pio/preview/wiki/Home I followed Nick's advice and added some valuable advice and overview/introduction at the wiki page t

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

Tres Seaver writes: > FWIW, I was taught that Spanish had 30 letters in the alfabeto: the > 'ñ', plus 'ch', 'll', and 'rr' were all considered distinct characters. That was always a Castellano vs. Americano issue, IIRC. As I wrote, Mr. Gonzalez was Castellano. I believe that the deprecation

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

Antoine Pitrou wrote: Le jeudi 01 septembre 2011 à 08:45 -0700, Guido van Rossum a écrit : This is definitely thought of as a separate mark added to the e; ë is not a new letter. I have a feeling it's the same way for the French and Germans, but I really don't know. (Antoine? Georg?) Indeed, t

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

Terry Reedy wrote: Too bad, since people sometimes use '-' to serve the same purpose. Which actually seems more logical to me -- a separating symbol is better placed between the things being separated, rather than over the top of one of them! Maybe we could compromise by turning the diaeresis

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

On Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:30:12 +1200 Greg Ewing wrote: > Guido van Rossum wrote: > > > I recall long ago that when the french wrote words in all caps they > > would drop the accents, e.g. ECOLE. I even recall (through the mists > > of time) observing this in Paris on public signs. Is this still the

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

Guido van Rossum wrote: But in a word like "coëxistentie" (coexistence) the o and e do not form the oe-sound, and to emphasize this to Dutch readers (who believe their spelling is very logical :-), the official spelling puts the umlaut on the e. Sometimes this is done in English too -- occasion

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

Guido van Rossum wrote: I recall long ago that when the french wrote words in all caps they would drop the accents, e.g. ECOLE. I even recall (through the mists of time) observing this in Paris on public signs. Is this still the convention? This page features a number of French street signs in

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

On Thu, 01 Sep 2011 12:38:07 -0700 Ethan Furman wrote: > > > > FWIW, I was taught that Spanish had 30 letters in the alfabeto: the > > 'ñ', plus 'ch', 'll', and 'rr' were all considered distinct characters. > > > > Kids-these-days'ly, > > Not sure what's going on, but according to the article

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

Tres Seaver wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 09/01/2011 02:54 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: If you look at Wikipedia, it says: “El alfabeto español consta de 27 letras”. The Ñ is separate from the N (and so is it in my French-Spanish dictionnary). The accented letters, howev

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 09/01/2011 02:54 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > If you look at Wikipedia, it says: “El alfabeto español consta de 27 > letras”. The Ñ is separate from the N (and so is it in my > French-Spanish dictionnary). The accented letters, however, are not

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

> > Finally, my guess is that the Spanish emphasis on ñ as a separate > > letter has to do with teaching how it has a separate position in the > > localized collation sequence, doesn't it? > > You'd have to ask Mr. Gonzalez. I suspect he may have taught that way > less because of his Castella

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

Guido van Rossum writes: > On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 12:13 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull > wrote: > > while at least this Spanish-as-a-second-language learner was taught > > that `ñ' is an atomic character represented by a discontiguous glyph, > > like `i', and it is no more related to `n' than `m'

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

Glenn Linderman writes: > Windows 7 64-bit on one of my computers happily crashes several > times a day when it detects inconsistent internal state... under > the theory, I guess, that losing work is better than saving bad > work. You sound the opposite. Definitely. Windows apps habitually

Re: [Python-Dev] Cython, Ctypes and the stdlib

Dan Stromberg, 01.09.2011 19:56: On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote: The problem lies with the PyPy backend -- there it generates ctypes code, which means that the signature you declare to Cython/Pyrex must match the *linker* level API, not the C compiler level API. Thus,

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

On 9/1/2011 11:45 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote: typewriter). Dutch does have one native use of the umlaut (though it has a different name, I forget which, maybe trema :-), You remember correctly. According to https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Trema_%28diacritic%29 'trema' (Greek 'ho

Re: [Python-Dev] Ctypes and the stdlib (was Re: LZMA compression support in 3.3)

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote: > On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:49 AM, "Martin v. Löwis" > wrote: > The problem lies with the PyPy backend -- there it generates ctypes > code, which means that the signature you declare to Cython/Pyrex must > match the *linker* level API, n

Re: [Python-Dev] Python 3 optimizations continued...

On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 10:15 AM, Glyph Lefkowitz wrote: > > On Sep 1, 2011, at 5:23 AM, Cesare Di Mauro wrote: > > A simple solution: when tracing is enabled, the new instruction format will > never be executed (and information tracking disabled as well). > > Correct me if I'm wrong: doesn't this

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

Antoine Pitrou, 01.09.2011 18:46: AFAIR, road signs also keep the accents, but I'm no driver Right, I noticed that, too. That's certainly not uncommon. I think it's mostly because of local pride (after all, the road signs are all that many drivers ever see of a city), but sometimes also becau

Re: [Python-Dev] Python 3 optimizations continued...

On Sep 1, 2011, at 5:23 AM, Cesare Di Mauro wrote: > A simple solution: when tracing is enabled, the new instruction format will > never be executed (and information tracking disabled as well). Correct me if I'm wrong: doesn't this mean that no profiler will accurately be able to measure the p

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

Guido van Rossum, 01.09.2011 18:31: On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 9:03 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: Le jeudi 01 septembre 2011 à 08:45 -0700, Guido van Rossum a écrit : This is definitely thought of as a separate mark added to the e; ë is not a new letter. I have a feeling it's the same way for the Frenc

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

> The example given was someone who didn't agree with how a particular > font rendered those accented characters. I agree that's obscure > though. > > I recall long ago that when the french wrote words in all caps they > would drop the accents, e.g. ECOLE. I even recall (through the mists > of ti

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 9:03 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > Le jeudi 01 septembre 2011 à 08:45 -0700, Guido van Rossum a écrit : >> This is definitely thought of as a separate >> mark added to the e; ë is not a new letter. I have a feeling it's the >> same way for the French and Germans, but I really

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

Le jeudi 01 septembre 2011 à 08:45 -0700, Guido van Rossum a écrit : > This is definitely thought of as a separate > mark added to the e; ë is not a new letter. I have a feeling it's the > same way for the French and Germans, but I really don't know. > (Antoine? Georg?) Indeed, they are not separa

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 12:13 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Where I cut your words, we are in 100% agreement.  (FWIW :-) Not quite the same here, but I don't feel the need to have the last word. Most of what you say makes sense, in some cases we'll quibble later, but there are a few points wher

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

> Ok, I thought there was also a form normalized (denormalized?) to > decomposed form. But I'll take your word. If I understood the example correctly, he needs a mixed form, with some characters decomposed and some composed (depending on which one looks better in the given font). I agree that this

Re: [Python-Dev] Python 3 optimizations continued...

2011/9/1 Mark Shannon > Cesare Di Mauro wrote: > >> 2011/9/1 Ned Batchelder > n...@nedbatchelder.com>> >> >> >>When the switchover to the new instruction format happens, what >>happens to sys.settrace() tracing? Will it report the same sequence >>of line numbers? For a small but imp

Re: [Python-Dev] Python 3 optimizations continued...

Cesare Di Mauro wrote: 2011/9/1 Ned Batchelder > When the switchover to the new instruction format happens, what happens to sys.settrace() tracing? Will it report the same sequence of line numbers? For a small but important class of program execut

Re: [Python-Dev] Python 3 optimizations continued...

2011/9/1 Ned Batchelder > When the switchover to the new instruction format happens, what happens to > sys.settrace() tracing? Will it report the same sequence of line numbers? > For a small but important class of program executions, this is more > important than speed. > > --Ned > A simple s

Re: [Python-Dev] Python 3 optimizations continued...

On 8/30/2011 4:41 PM, stefan brunthaler wrote: Ok, there there's something else you haven't told us. Are you saying that the original (old) bytecode is still used (and hence written to and read from .pyc files)? Short answer: yes. Long answer: I added an invocation counter to the code object an

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

On 9/1/2011 12:59 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: Glenn Linderman writes: > We can either artificially constrain ourselves to minor tweaks of > the legal conforming bytestreams, It's not artificial. Having the internal representation be the same as a standard encoding is very useful for a

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

On 9/1/2011 2:15 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: Glenn Linderman writes: > How many different iterators into the same text would be concurrently > needed by an application? And why? A WYSIWYG editor for structured text (TeX, HTML) might want two (at least), one for the "source" window and

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

Glenn Linderman writes: > How many different iterators into the same text would be concurrently > needed by an application? And why? A WYSIWYG editor for structured text (TeX, HTML) might want two (at least), one for the "source" window and one for the "rendered" window. One might want to sav

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

Stephen J. Turnbull: > ...  Eg, this is why the common GUIs for Unix (X.org, GTK+, and > Qt) either provide or require UTF-8 coding for their text. Qt uses UTF-16 for its basic QString type. While QString is mostly treated as a black box which you can create from input buffers in any encoding,

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

Glenn Linderman writes: > I found your discussion of streams versus arrays, as separate concepts > related to Unicode, along with Terry's bisect indexing implementation, > to rather inspiring. Just because Unicode defines streams of codeunits > of various sizes (UTF-8, UTF-16, UTF-32) to r

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

Glenn Linderman: > How many different iterators into the same text would be concurrently needed > by an application?  And why? Seems like if it is dealing with text at the > level of grapheme clusters, it needs that type of iterator.  Of course, if > it does I/O it needs codec access, but that is

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

Glenn Linderman writes: > We can either artificially constrain ourselves to minor tweaks of > the legal conforming bytestreams, It's not artificial. Having the internal representation be the same as a standard encoding is very useful for a large number of minor usages (urgently saving buffers

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 393 Summer of Code Project

Where I cut your words, we are in 100% agreement. (FWIW :-) Guido van Rossum writes: > On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 11:03 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull > wrote: > > Well, that's why I wrote "intended to be suggestive".  The Unicode > > Standard does not specify at all what the internal representation