On 02/23/2020 03:01 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
I've been sitting on this email for the best part of a week. It hasn't
been an easy decision to decide to send it, because I expect it will
ruffle some feathers, including someone who, last time I ruffled his
feathers, banned me from one of the other mailing lists.
The relevant posts from the thread in question:
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2018-September/887394.html
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2018-September/887398.html
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2018-September/887401.html
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2018-September/887445.html
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2018-September/887493.html
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2018-September/887418.html
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2018-September/887464.html
But I am part of this community, and if I'm too scared to state my
opinions for fear of retaliation, then I'm not really part of the
community, the supposed community values of being open and welcoming is
a sham, and it's best if I find out now.
That's pretty much what you said then. Have you not returned to that mailing
list because you no longer feel like part of the community?
When I posted my reply to Rhodri, I wasn't intending to shine the
spotlight on his comment to Soni more than the simple statement I made:
(Rhodri has two 'r's in his name.)
But since Ethan disagreed with me, I should elaborate.
Rhodri James wrote:
------------------
Language, sunshine.
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
---------------------
What about it? Just for the record, I had no issues with Soni's language, but
I do object to attempts to shame him for it.
Ethan Furman wrote:
------------------
Since when is simply drawing one's attention to something shaming?
Steven explains:
---------------
Of course drawing attention to something can often be shaming and a
disguised attack:
"You're fat. He's filthy. She's promiscuous. Your language is
unacceptable and bad (and by implication, so are you)."
Having attention drawn to your social transgression is shaming. That's
why we do it: to stop people from transgressing again.
To me, "shaming" also requires a certain amount of meanness or cruelty (the
"attack" part), often suggested by the tone or body language of the person
commenting. Hopefully we are all aware that tone is hard to achieve in the
written word, especially across continents and language barriers; body
language is, of course, completely absent.
"Language" is short for "Watch your language", a command, not an
observation or even a suggestion. But I'm pretty sure that you, Ethan,
already knew that. Defending Rhodri on the basis that he's merely stating
a fact is disingenuous.
Had I thought about it that way I would agree with you. I did not, however, see
his comment as a command, nor do I agree that "Language" is always short for
"Watch your language", especially in the often terse environment of mailing
lists.
In Commonwealth English, calling someone you don't know "sunshine" is a
mock-friendly but actually hostile act, rather like the way "pal" or
"buddy" can be used in American English. Even if you did not know this,
you surely knew that in the context of this email thread, calling
someone "sunshine" is condescending, like calling them "pumpkin" or
"sweety-pie".
No, I did not know that. And "pal" and "buddy" are no more hostile than any
other
American English word unless used in a certain way -- a way made explicit by
tone and body language.
In fact, when I first read Rhodri's post I thought it meant something along
the lines of: programming language -> pie in the sky perfection. Hence, it
is possible to be too terse.
What Rhodi did was not "simply drawing one's attention", it was a
rebuke. Ethan, I find it difficult to believe that you did not know
that, and that your question was made in good faith.
I'm sorry you think so poorly of me.
Steven previously said:
----------------------
This isn't the Disney Chanel, it's been over 100 years since Victoria was
Queen of England, and we're all adults here.
Ethan had replied:
-----------------
Really? I didn't realize those under the legal age of majority were not
allowed on this list.
Ethan, you've been involved with the Python community long enough to
know the meaning of "we're all adults here", and it doesn't mean
anything about legal age of majority.
Yes, it means we are responsible for our own code.
The point is, this is not a child-friendly space, this is an space for
adults. We shouldn't be expected to dumb-down our conversation to that
suitable for six year olds.
Using words that accurately describe a situation without using profanity
is not "dumbing down".
If there are any underage people on this list, I expect them to (1)
behave like adults, and (2) not freak out when the rest of us behave
like adults.
If "behaving like adults" was the accepted norm, we wouldn't have a CoC
(and No, I am NOT suggesting that the OP, or this post, are even remotely
close to a CoC violation).
And that includes using "grown up words" (dear gods, why
are we even having this conversation?)
Because you don't like people disagreeing with you about what is acceptable
list behavior?
that I am pretty sure most of us, if not all of us, use off-list, hear
our peers use, hear at the movies,on television, and on radio.
Which is irrelevant to what is expected on the Python lists.
Besides, I know what kids are like. I was one once, as we all were. The
idea that an unsupervised child on the Internet doesn't already know
this "bad word" by the time they're eight is at best laughably naive, if
not patronising and demeaning.
It's a matter of courtesy. I, for one, greatly appreciate posters who take
the time to formulate their arguments and/or problems without using emotionally
charged words and/or expletives which usually add little and can easily take
away from the intended conversation (such as your querying of the gods a few
moments ago).
When the CoC was first debated, the PSF promised that the CoC would not
be used to ban "rude words". Have they reneged on that promise?
I don't know -- maybe you should ask them? Or are you conflating Rhodri with
the PSF?
If not, Soni's language shouldn't even be an issue and Rhodri's rebuke was
unnecessary.
We'll have to agree to disagree on whether Rhodri's post was a rebuke or a
reminder.
If they have, then we have a much more serious problem with
this community.
Indeed. I would hate to think that every little disagreement needs to be
moderated and judged by the PSF.
Ethan wrote:
-----------
At any rate, we should be able to control what we say and how we say it,
adult or not.
Indeed we should. And if that means we want to call a shitty piece of
software a shitty piece of software, especially when it's our own
software, we shouldn't need fear that somebody will tell us off for it.
Is this one of those language barrier thingies? Because to me, "telling us
off for it" would be quite a bit harsher than the two words Rhodri used.
--
~Ethan~
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