Re: Keeping python code and database in sync

2014-08-30 Thread dieter
Frank Millman fr...@chagford.com writes: ... It is a simple matter to write a program that updates the database automatically. The question is, what should trigger such an update? My first thought is to use a version number - store a version number in the working directory, and have a

Re: Why is w9xpopen.exe bundled with Python 2.7 on Windows?

2014-08-30 Thread ps16thypresenceisfullnessofjoy
Thanks, that's interesting. It seems odd to me that w9xpopen.exe (because of its name) is still used on Windows 7, so I can see why it was removed in Python 3.4. Since I don't use the popen function at all in my application, I think it should be OK to exclude w9xpopen.exe in my py2exe setup

Sequencing images using tkinter?

2014-08-30 Thread theteacher . info
I've started to learn to use tkinter but can't seem to rotate images. Here is a Python 3.4 program to illustrate the problem. Anyone spot why the for loop doesn't seem to want to display a sucssession of images please? Thanks. import sys from tkinter import * import random from time import

PySide 1.2.2 and Python 3.4.1 - native Qt signal is not callable

2014-08-30 Thread Juan Christian
Hello everyone, I have a question regarding PySide 1.2.2 and Python 3.4.1 I have this code http://pastebin.com/5NXd4Jkk that I made following a Python tutorial https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8D_aEYiBU2c, mine is a bit different because the tutorial is a bit old, and I'm trying to use Python

I have tried and errored a reasonable amount of times

2014-08-30 Thread Seymore4Head
I really tried to get this without asking for help. mylist = [The, earth, Revolves, around, Sun] print (mylist) for e in mylist: # one of these two choices should print something. Since neither does, I am missing something subtle. if e[0].isupper == False: print (False) if

Re: Why is w9xpopen.exe bundled with Python 2.7 on Windows?

2014-08-30 Thread Terry Reedy
On 8/30/2014 10:45 AM, ps16thypresenceisfullnessof...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks, that's interesting. It seems odd to me that w9xpopen.exe (because of its name) is still used on Windows 7, Yes, the name is confusing. It is not about running on Windows 9X, but about running popen on later systems

Re: I have tried and errored a reasonable amount of times

2014-08-30 Thread Tim Chase
On 2014-08-30 14:27, Seymore4Head wrote: I really tried to get this without asking for help. mylist = [The, earth, Revolves, around, Sun] print (mylist) for e in mylist: # one of these two choices should print something. Since neither does, I am missing something subtle. if

Re: I have tried and errored a reasonable amount of times

2014-08-30 Thread Seymore4Head
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 13:48:09 -0500, Tim Chase python.l...@tim.thechases.com wrote: On 2014-08-30 14:27, Seymore4Head wrote: I really tried to get this without asking for help. mylist = [The, earth, Revolves, around, Sun] print (mylist) for e in mylist: # one of these two choices should

Re: PySide 1.2.2 and Python 3.4.1 - native Qt signal is not callable

2014-08-30 Thread MRAB
On 2014-08-30 14:35, Juan Christian wrote: Hello everyone, I have a question regarding PySide 1.2.2 and Python 3.4.1 I have this code http://pastebin.com/5NXd4Jkk that I made following a Python tutorial https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8D_aEYiBU2c, mine is a bit different because the tutorial is

Re: PySide 1.2.2 and Python 3.4.1 - native Qt signal is not callable

2014-08-30 Thread Juan Christian
Yes, indeed, my code was a mess! I did a clear code here (http://pastebin.com/XsVLSVky) that's fully working, thanks! 2014-08-30 16:05 GMT-03:00 MRAB pyt...@mrabarnett.plus.com: On 2014-08-30 14:35, Juan Christian wrote: Hello everyone, I have a question regarding PySide 1.2.2 and Python

Re: Sequencing images using tkinter?

2014-08-30 Thread Terry Reedy
On 8/30/2014 11:54 AM, theteacher.i...@gmail.com wrote: I've started to learn to use tkinter but can't seem to rotate images. Here is a Python 3.4 program to illustrate the problem. Anyone spot why the for loop doesn't seem to want to display a sucssession of images please? Thanks. import

Re: Sequencing images using tkinter?

2014-08-30 Thread Peter Otten
theteacher.i...@gmail.com wrote: I've started to learn to use tkinter but can't seem to rotate images. Here is a Python 3.4 program to illustrate the problem. Anyone spot why the for loop doesn't seem to want to display a sucssession of images please? Thanks. GUI programs are different

Re: Sequencing images using tkinter?

2014-08-30 Thread theteacher . info
Peter - Thanks! I've had a play around and followed your advice and have something that should take me on to the next step! This is what I have so far and it works, Thanks. from tkinter import * from tkinter import ttk import random root = Tk() root.title(Messing about) def next_image():

Error reading from 'urllib.request' and iterating over lines

2014-08-30 Thread Juan Christian
My code: http://pastebin.com/CBgVvT4n Line 25 returns the text correctly [1], but it seems not being parsed to line 27-28 correctly. This is just a training program that I'm doing following some books/tutorials/docs, nothing special. [1] Output from line 25: http://pastebin.com/HSbAtDHQ Python

Re: I have tried and errored a reasonable amount of times

2014-08-30 Thread Ned Batchelder
On 8/30/14 2:50 PM, Seymore4Head wrote: On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 13:48:09 -0500, Tim Chase python.l...@tim.thechases.com wrote: On 2014-08-30 14:27, Seymore4Head wrote: I really tried to get this without asking for help. mylist = [The, earth, Revolves, around, Sun] print (mylist) for e in mylist:

Re: Sequencing images using tkinter?

2014-08-30 Thread theteacher . info
Although getting next_image to run for e.g. 10 times in a for loop is still something I can't get to work. It only displays one image. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: I have tried and errored a reasonable amount of times

2014-08-30 Thread Seymore4Head
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 16:20:56 -0400, Ned Batchelder n...@nedbatchelder.com wrote: On 8/30/14 2:50 PM, Seymore4Head wrote: On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 13:48:09 -0500, Tim Chase python.l...@tim.thechases.com wrote: On 2014-08-30 14:27, Seymore4Head wrote: I really tried to get this without asking for

Re: Sequencing images using tkinter?

2014-08-30 Thread theteacher . info
How do you exit from this function? def next_image(): myLabel.config(image=random.choice(monster_images)) # tell tkinter to invoke next_image() again after 200 miliseconds root.after(200, next_image) -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Sequencing images using tkinter?

2014-08-30 Thread Albert Visser
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 22:27:01 +0200, theteacher.i...@gmail.com wrote: Although getting next_image to run for e.g. 10 times in a for loop is still something I can't get to work. It only displays one image. I think this is because you do all your processing befoe starting the event loop

Re: Sequencing images using tkinter?

2014-08-30 Thread Peter Otten
theteacher.i...@gmail.com wrote: How do you exit from this function? def next_image(): myLabel.config(image=random.choice(monster_images)) # tell tkinter to invoke next_image() again after 200 miliseconds You misunderstand. The problem with the function is not that it doesn't

Re: I have tried and errored a reasonable amount of times

2014-08-30 Thread Mark Lawrence
On 30/08/2014 19:48, Tim Chase wrote: On 2014-08-30 14:27, Seymore4Head wrote: I really tried to get this without asking for help. mylist = [The, earth, Revolves, around, Sun] print (mylist) for e in mylist: # one of these two choices should print something. Since neither does, I am

Re: Error reading from 'urllib.request' and iterating over lines

2014-08-30 Thread MRAB
On 2014-08-30 21:16, Juan Christian wrote: My code: http://pastebin.com/CBgVvT4n Line 25 returns the text correctly [1], but it seems not being parsed to line 27-28 correctly. This is just a training program that I'm doing following some books/tutorials/docs, nothing special. [1] Output from

Re: I have tried and errored a reasonable amount of times

2014-08-30 Thread Seymore4Head
On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 22:21:40 +0100, Mark Lawrence breamore...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: On 30/08/2014 19:48, Tim Chase wrote: On 2014-08-30 14:27, Seymore4Head wrote: I really tried to get this without asking for help. mylist = [The, earth, Revolves, around, Sun] print (mylist) for e in mylist:

Re: I have tried and errored a reasonable amount of times

2014-08-30 Thread Mark Lawrence
On 30/08/2014 22:48, Seymore4Head wrote: On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 22:21:40 +0100, Mark Lawrence breamore...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: On 30/08/2014 19:48, Tim Chase wrote: On 2014-08-30 14:27, Seymore4Head wrote: I really tried to get this without asking for help. mylist = [The, earth, Revolves,

Re: I have tried and errored a reasonable amount of times

2014-08-30 Thread Cameron Simpson
On 30Aug2014 17:48, Seymore4Head Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid wrote: I have been told that one is a method and the other calls a method. I still have to learn exactly what that means. I'm getting there. A method is, essentially, a function. Observe: def my_func(x): print(9) my_func

[issue22302] Windows os.path.isabs UNC path bug

2014-08-30 Thread Akima
Akima added the comment: FYI: I've only tested this bug on Python 3.3.5 on Windows 7. I expect the bug exists in other versions of Python. -- type: - behavior ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue22302

[issue22305] Documentation on deepcopy's problems is misleading

2014-08-30 Thread Shailesh Hegde
New submission from Shailesh Hegde: https://docs.python.org/version/library/copy.html Two problems often exist with deep copy operations that don’t exist with shallow copy operations: Recursive objects (compound objects that, directly or indirectly, contain a reference to themselves) may

[issue10598] Add test for curses haskey replacement

2014-08-30 Thread Terry J. Reedy
Terry J. Reedy added the comment: For some reason, rev73781 above links to rev55058:fb542ed91e7f, whereas the actual patch is bff927c8b410. I think testing the replacement is reasonable, but should be call something like 'test_haskey_backup' and it should test that the backup worked, that

[issue22306] Inconsistent division by 0 behaviour in decimal module

2014-08-30 Thread Akima
New submission from Akima: 1 / 0 (where both numbers are decimal.Decimal) produces a decimal.DivisionByZero exception as I would expect. This is useful. I can use a simple try except block to catch a potential division by zero error in my code. 0 / 0 (where both numbers are

[issue17620] Python interactive console doesn't use sys.stdin for input

2014-08-30 Thread STINNER Victor
STINNER Victor added the comment: The Python parser works well with UTF8. If you know the encoding, decode from your encoding and encode to UTF8. You should pass the UTF8 flag to the parser. -- ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org

[issue6029] FAIL: test_longdouble (ctypes.test.test_callbacks.Callbacks) [SPARC/64-bit]

2014-08-30 Thread Terry J. Reedy
Terry J. Reedy added the comment: Mark, the rev #s are not being translated correctly. Better to use the 10 digit hex #. Can you find the commit again? We have a SPARC Solaris 10 buildbot http://buildbot.python.org/all/waterfall?category=3.x.stablecategory=3.x.unstable The ctypes test is

[issue21072] Python docs and downloads not available for Egypt

2014-08-30 Thread Terry J. Reedy
Changes by Terry J. Reedy tjre...@udel.edu: -- versions: -Python 3.1, Python 3.2, Python 3.3, Python 3.4 ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue21072 ___

[issue22298] Lib/warnings.py _show_warning does not protect against being called with a file like object which is closed

2014-08-30 Thread Antoine Pitrou
Antoine Pitrou added the comment: This is not about stderr though, this is about the `file` argument that is passed to showwarning(). That stderr may be an invalid file is a rather rare condition, for good reason (even if you want to silence any program output, it is generally better to

[issue22298] Lib/warnings.py _show_warning does not protect against being called with a file like object which is closed

2014-08-30 Thread Antoine Pitrou
Antoine Pitrou added the comment: And so the original silencing came without a bug reference or an explanation: changeset: 25204:2e7fe55c0e11 branch: legacy-trunk user:Mark Hammond mhamm...@skippinet.com.au date:Wed Sep 11 13:22:35 2002 + files: Lib/warnings.py

[issue22306] Inconsistent division by 0 behaviour in decimal module

2014-08-30 Thread Akima
Changes by Akima m...@aki.ma: -- components: +Library (Lib) ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue22306 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing

[issue6029] FAIL: test_longdouble (ctypes.test.test_callbacks.Callbacks) [SPARC/64-bit]

2014-08-30 Thread Mark Lawrence
Mark Lawrence added the comment: Terry r59626 in the file's revision history refers to eefd521f19ce which I assume is what you're after. FWIW I get that on Windows 8.1 by right clicking on the file, select TortoiseHg, then Revision History. -- ___

[issue21965] Add support for Memory BIO to _ssl

2014-08-30 Thread Antoine Pitrou
Antoine Pitrou added the comment: Nice work, thank you! The new API looks mostly good to me. I am wondering about a couple of things: - is it necessary to start exposing server_hostname, server_side and pending()? - SSLObject is a bit vague, should we call it SSLMemoryObject? or do you expect

[issue22306] Inconsistent division by 0 behaviour in decimal module

2014-08-30 Thread Antoine Pitrou
Changes by Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr: -- nosy: +skrah ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue22306 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing

[issue22306] Inconsistent division by 0 behaviour in decimal module

2014-08-30 Thread Antoine Pitrou
Changes by Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr: -- nosy: +facundobatista, mark.dickinson, rhettinger ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue22306 ___

[issue22305] Documentation on deepcopy's problems is misleading

2014-08-30 Thread Steven D'Aprano
Steven D'Aprano added the comment: It should read: administrative data structures that should be not shared even between copies No. If they should NOT be shared, then making a deep copy is the correct thing to do. The problem with deepcopy is when you actually do want to share some deep

[issue22261] Document how to use Concurrent Build when using MsBuild

2014-08-30 Thread sbspider
sbspider added the comment: Uploaded a new patch. -- Added file: http://bugs.python.org/file36506/readme.patch ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue22261 ___

[issue22306] Inconsistent division by 0 behaviour in decimal module

2014-08-30 Thread Stefan Krah
Stefan Krah added the comment: The behavior is according to the specification: http://speleotrove.com/decimal/decarith.html The idea behind it is that 1/0 can be reasonably defined as infinity, whereas 0/0 is undefined. You can see that if you disable the exceptions: c = getcontext()

[issue6029] FAIL: test_longdouble (ctypes.test.test_callbacks.Callbacks) [SPARC/64-bit]

2014-08-30 Thread Peter Bray
Peter Bray added the comment: Terry, I no longer have easy access to SPARC64 systems (they are in boxes), so unfortunately I will not be able to contribute to this issue in the near future. Peter -- components: -Tests ___ Python tracker

[issue22306] Inconsistent division by 0 behaviour in decimal module

2014-08-30 Thread Akima
Akima added the comment: Hi skrah. Thanks for the feedback. That specification is interesting. As this IBM spec appears to be a /general/ specification for performing decimal arithmatic and not targetted specifically at Python's decimal arithmatic implementation, I would expect all of

[issue22306] Inconsistent division by 0 behaviour in decimal module

2014-08-30 Thread Akima
Akima added the comment: Sorry. Scratch my last comment. I see from the docs ( https://docs.python.org/3/library/decimal.html ) that the decimal module explicitly references that IBM spec. I imagine that standard python arithmatic doesn't even attempt to conform to this ibm spec.

[issue22306] Inconsistent division by 0 behaviour in decimal module

2014-08-30 Thread Stefan Krah
Stefan Krah added the comment: According to IEEE 754-2008 binary floats should use the same exceptions in this case. 7.2 Invalid operation ... e) division: division(0, 0) or division(∞, ∞) 7.3 Division by zero The divideByZero exception shall be signaled if and only if an exact

[issue22307] os.getlogin() documentation has misleading side note

2014-08-30 Thread Carlo
New submission from Carlo: The documentation for os.getlogin() says: ... ``pwd.getpwuid(os.getuid())[0]`` to get the login name of the currently effective user id Either, os.getuid() should be changed to os.geteuid(), or the wording should be changed. -- assignee: docs@python

[issue1425127] os.remove OSError: [Errno 13] Permission denied

2014-08-30 Thread Brian Curtin
Changes by Brian Curtin br...@python.org: -- nosy: -brian.curtin ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue1425127 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list

[issue17620] Python interactive console doesn't use sys.stdin for input

2014-08-30 Thread Drekin
Drekin added the comment: Antoine Pitrou: I understand. It would be nice to have that new Python string based readline hook. Its default implementation could be to call PyOS_Readline and decode the bytes using sys.stdin.encoding (as the tokenizer currently does). Tokenizer then woudn't need

[issue22297] 2.7 json encoding broken for enums

2014-08-30 Thread Serhiy Storchaka
Serhiy Storchaka added the comment: The enum types was added to the stdlib in 3.4. There are no the enum types in Python 2.7. There is no a bug, support for the enum types is new feature. -- nosy: +barry, eli.bendersky, ethan.furman, serhiy.storchaka resolution: - not a bug status:

[issue22297] 2.7 json encoding broken for enums

2014-08-30 Thread Antoine Pitrou
Antoine Pitrou added the comment: Edward, is this a regression? If yes, we should probably fix it. -- status: pending - open ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue22297 ___

[issue22308] add {implementation} to sysconfig.py

2014-08-30 Thread mattip
New submission from mattip: An issue was reported on PyPy where a user had a ~/.local/lib/python2.7/site-packages directory that contained cpython specific libraries. We trakced it down to posix_user in sysconfig.py being set to an implementation-specific cpython path, but used by pypy. This

[issue22308] add {implementation} to sysconfig.py

2014-08-30 Thread mattip
mattip added the comment: adding a diff patch to 2.7 -- Added file: http://bugs.python.org/file36508/sysconfig_2_7.patch ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue22308 ___

[issue22297] 2.7 json encoding broken for enums

2014-08-30 Thread Ethan Furman
Ethan Furman added the comment: This is not a regression. json only deals with standard types (int, str, etc.), and Enum is not a standard type. Enum was introduced in 3.4, so corresponding changes were made to json to support int and float subclasses, of which IntEnum is one. In other

[issue20421] expose SSL socket protocol version

2014-08-30 Thread Antoine Pitrou
Antoine Pitrou added the comment: Updated patch with doc. -- stage: needs patch - patch review Added file: http://bugs.python.org/file36509/ssl_version2.patch ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue20421

[issue22297] 2.7 json encoding broken for enums

2014-08-30 Thread Ethan Furman
Ethan Furman added the comment: One argument against fixing: If we do fix in 2.7.9 then any program targeting it will be unable to target 3.0-3.3, as those versions do not have the fix from 3.4. -- ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org

[issue22297] 2.7 json encoding broken for enums

2014-08-30 Thread Barry A. Warsaw
Barry A. Warsaw added the comment: On Aug 30, 2014, at 07:34 PM, Ethan Furman wrote: In other words, this was a bug that no one noticed for many many releases, and I'm not sure we should fix it in 2.7 now. Arguments for fixing? -1 on fixing it, but we *can* document workarounds. Here's what

[issue22215] embedded NUL character exceptions

2014-08-30 Thread Roundup Robot
Roundup Robot added the comment: New changeset a058760cb069 by R David Murray in branch '3.4': #22215: have the smtplib 'quit' command reset the state. http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/a058760cb069 New changeset d0d4ab0ba70e by R David Murray in branch 'default': Merge #22215: have the smtplib

[issue22216] smtplip STARTTLS fails at second attampt due to unsufficiant quit()

2014-08-30 Thread R. David Murray
R. David Murray added the comment: Thanks, Milan. I could swear I typed a '6' in the commit message, but apparently not... New changeset a058760cb069 by R David Murray in branch '3.4': #22215: have the smtplib 'quit' command reset the state. http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/a058760cb069 New

[issue22215] embedded NUL character exceptions

2014-08-30 Thread R. David Murray
Changes by R. David Murray rdmur...@bitdance.com: -- Removed message: http://bugs.python.org/msg226149 ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue22215 ___

[issue22309] distutils/spawn.py handle fork() not implemented.

2014-08-30 Thread John Malmberg
New submission from John Malmberg: Distutils currently can not handle a Posix platform that does not implement fork(). This patch retries with the _spawn_nt to use the spawn() methods if fork() is not implemented. A platform that does not implement fork() can provide spawn*() methods for

[issue22283] AMD64 FreeBSD 9.0 3.x fails to build the _decimal module: #error libmpdec version = 2.4.1 required

2014-08-30 Thread Stefan Krah
Stefan Krah added the comment: I've upgraded the system libmpdec to 2.4.1. -- resolution: - fixed stage: - resolved status: open - closed ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue22283

[issue22309] distutils/spawn.py handle fork() not implemented.

2014-08-30 Thread Ned Deily
Ned Deily added the comment: As far as I can tell, a Posix-compliant system is required to implement fork(). Which platform doesn't? -- nosy: +ned.deily ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue22309

[issue20421] expose SSL socket protocol version

2014-08-30 Thread Antoine Pitrou
Changes by Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr: -- nosy: +geertj ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue20421 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing

[issue22310] Report actual EOF character instead of assuming Ctrl-D

2014-08-30 Thread John Malmberg
New submission from John Malmberg: Have setquit() use the actual EOF character where available instead of assuming Ctrl-D. -- components: Library (Lib) files: lib_site_py.gdiff messages: 226154 nosy: John.Malmberg priority: normal severity: normal status: open title: Report actual EOF

[issue22310] Report actual EOF character instead of assuming Ctrl-D

2014-08-30 Thread Antoine Pitrou
Changes by Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr: -- nosy: +haypo ___ Python tracker rep...@bugs.python.org http://bugs.python.org/issue22310 ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing

[issue22307] os.getlogin() documentation has misleading side note

2014-08-30 Thread Roundup Robot
Roundup Robot added the comment: New changeset 59f2edeb8443 by Benjamin Peterson in branch '2.7': getuid() returns real process id not effective (closes #22307) http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/59f2edeb8443 New changeset c30163548f64 by Benjamin Peterson in branch '3.4': getuid() returns real

[issue22257] PEP 432: Redesign the interpreter startup sequence

2014-08-30 Thread Nick Coghlan
Nick Coghlan added the comment: It's still deferred for the time being. Based on what I learned on my previous attempt at implementing it, there's some prep work I need to do where I believe reviewing someone else's attempt at doing it would actually be *more* work than doing the work myself

[issue22309] distutils/spawn.py handle fork() not implemented.

2014-08-30 Thread John Malmberg
John Malmberg added the comment: There are multiple degrees of Posix compliance. While X/Open documents the Posix requirements for implementing fork(), so far I have not found anything that requires that fork() be present. Configure tests for c-python also test for the presence of fork().

[issue22257] PEP 432: Redesign the interpreter startup sequence

2014-08-30 Thread Nick Coghlan
Nick Coghlan added the comment: As far as the specific 5 phase vs 2 steps goes, the two steps in PEP 432 terms are the Pre-Initialized - Initializing transition and the Initializing - Initialized transition. What Gregory is talking about is a potentially good way to organise the second step

[issue22305] Documentation on deepcopy's problems is misleading

2014-08-30 Thread Shailesh Hegde
Shailesh Hegde added the comment: Thanks. Because deep copy copies everything it may copy too much, e.g., administrative data structures that need to be shared even between copies, which may not be the desired goal. helps me understand better. --