On 05/03/18 01:01, Ooomzay wrote:
On Sunday, 4 March 2018 23:57:24 UTC, Mark Lawrence wrote:
On 04/03/18 02:28, Ooomzay wrote:
On Friday, 2 March 2018 15:37:25 UTC, Paul Moore wrote:
[snip]
def fn():
for i in range(1):
with open(f"file{i}.txt", "w") as f:
On Monday, 5 March 2018 01:11:43 UTC, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 3/4/18 6:55 PM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> > On 3/4/18 5:25 PM, Ooomzay wrote:
> >> On Sunday, 4 March 2018 14:37:30 UTC, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> >>> Are you including cyclic references in your assertion that CPython
> >>> behaves as yo
Richard Damon writes:
> […] I can't see any good way to create the equivalent of a 'weak
> reference' (names aren't objects so don't have properties). The best
> I can think of is to create some sort of magical object that can refer
> to another object, but that reference 'doesn't count'. This s
On Saturday, 3 March 2018 17:10:53 UTC, Dietmar Schwertberger wrote:
> CPython does *not* guarantee destruction when the object reference goes
> out of scope, even if there are no other references.
> I would very much appreciate such a deterministic behaviour, at least
> with CPython.
>
> I rec
On 3/4/18 6:55 PM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
On 3/4/18 5:25 PM, Ooomzay wrote:
On Sunday, 4 March 2018 14:37:30 UTC, Ned Batchelder wrote:
Are you including cyclic references in your assertion that CPython
behaves as you want?
Yes. Because the only behaviour required for RAII is to detect and
deb
On Sunday, 4 March 2018 23:55:33 UTC, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> On 3/4/18 5:25 PM, Ooomzay wrote:
> > On Sunday, 4 March 2018 14:37:30 UTC, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> >> Are you including cyclic references in your assertion that CPython
> >> behaves as you want?
> > Yes. Because the only behaviour req
On Sunday, 4 March 2018 23:57:24 UTC, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 04/03/18 02:28, Ooomzay wrote:
> > On Friday, 2 March 2018 15:37:25 UTC, Paul Moore wrote:
> > [snip]
> >> def fn():
> >> for i in range(1):
> >> with open(f"file{i}.txt", "w") as f:
> >>
On Sunday, 4 March 2018 15:24:08 UTC, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Mar 2018 03:37:38 -0800, Ooomzay wrote:
>
> > Please consider the case of a composite resource: You need to implement
> > __enter__, __exit__ and track the open/closed state at every level in
> > your component hierarchy -
On 04/03/18 02:28, Ooomzay wrote:
On Friday, 2 March 2018 15:37:25 UTC, Paul Moore wrote:
[snip]
def fn():
for i in range(1):
with open(f"file{i}.txt", "w") as f:
f.write("Some text")
How would you write this in your RAII style - without leaving
On Sun, Mar 4, 2018 at 10:37 PM, Ooomzay wrote:
> Please consider the case of a composite resource: You need to implement
> __enter__, __exit__ and track the open/closed state at every level in
> your component hierarchy - even if some levels hold no resources directly.
>
> This is burdensome, bre
On 3/4/2018 1:37 PM, Ooomzay wrote:
Not so:- CPython, the reference interpreter, already implements the
required behaviour, as mentioned in the PEP.
It does most of the time, but it's not guaranteed. See my previous post.
Regards,
Dietmar
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-
On 3/4/18 5:25 PM, Ooomzay wrote:
On Sunday, 4 March 2018 14:37:30 UTC, Ned Batchelder wrote:
Are you including cyclic references in your assertion that CPython
behaves as you want?
Yes. Because the only behaviour required for RAII is to detect and debug such
cycles in order to eliminate them
On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 10:42 AM, Steven D'Aprano
wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Mar 2018 09:20:24 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> Okay, that sounds reasonable. Let's help things out by creating a
>> special syntax for reference-counted object usage
> [...]
>> Feel free to bikeshed the exact keywords and fu
On Mon, 05 Mar 2018 09:20:24 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> Okay, that sounds reasonable. Let's help things out by creating a
> special syntax for reference-counted object usage
[...]
> Feel free to bikeshed the exact keywords and function names, of course.
I see what you did there.
:-)
--
S
On Sunday, 4 March 2018 14:37:30 UTC, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> Are you including cyclic references in your assertion that CPython
> behaves as you want?
Yes. Because the only behaviour required for RAII is to detect and debug such
cycles in order to eliminate them. It is a design error/resource
On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 9:09 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
> My presumption of the proposal is the it does NOT expect that __del__ be
> called just because an object is no longer reachable but is in a cycle of
> isolated objects, those would still need to wait for the garbage collector
> to get them. Th
On 3/4/18 8:46 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 12:26 AM, Ooomzay wrote:
Well refcounts are definitely "doable": This is how the reference python
implementation, CPython, currently manages to comply with this PEP and can
therefore be used for RAII.
This PEP is an attempt to _g
On 04/03/2018 14:11, Ooomzay wrote:
Well I see a lot of posts that indicate peeps here are more comfortable with
the "with" idiom than the RAII idiom but I have not yet seen a single
linguistic problem or breakage.
As it happens I have used RAII extensively with CPython to manage a debugging
e
On 3/4/18 9:11 AM, Ooomzay wrote:
I am well aware of what it will mean for interpreters. For some interpreters it
will have zero impact (e.g. CPython) ...
There's no point continuing this if you are just going to insist on
falsehoods like this. CPython doesn't currently do what you want, but
On Sun, 04 Mar 2018 09:37:34 -0500, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> On 3/4/18 7:37 AM, Ooomzay wrote:
>> On Sunday, 4 March 2018 04:23:07 UTC, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> [This PEP] imposes enormous burdens on the maintainers of at least
>>> five interpreters (CPython, Stackless, Jython, IronPyt
On Sun, 04 Mar 2018 03:37:38 -0800, Ooomzay wrote:
> Please consider the case of a composite resource: You need to implement
> __enter__, __exit__ and track the open/closed state at every level in
> your component hierarchy - even if some levels hold no resources
> directly.
I'm sorry, that descr
On 3/4/18 7:37 AM, Ooomzay wrote:
On Sunday, 4 March 2018 04:23:07 UTC, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
[...]
[This PEP] imposes enormous burdens on the maintainers of at least five
interpreters (CPython, Stackless, Jython, IronPython, PyPy) all of which
will need to be re-written to have RAII semantics
On 3/4/18 8:26 AM, Ooomzay wrote:
On Sunday, 4 March 2018 03:16:31 UTC, Paul Rubin wrote:
Chris Angelico writes:
Yep, cool. Now do that with all of your smart pointers being on the
heap too. You are not allowed to use ANY stack objects. ANY. Got it?
That's both overconstraining and not even
On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 1:11 AM, Ooomzay wrote:
> On Sunday, 4 March 2018 03:00:13 UTC, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> This thread is dead. The OP wants to wave a magic wand and say
>> "__del__ is now guaranteed to be called immediately",
>
> No "magic" required: Just one line change in the language ref
On Sunday, 4 March 2018 03:00:13 UTC, Chris Angelico wrote:
> This thread is dead. The OP wants to wave a magic wand and say
> "__del__ is now guaranteed to be called immediately",
No "magic" required: Just one line change in the language reference will do it.
> without any explanation
The PEP
On Sun, 04 Mar 2018 04:37:46 -0800, Ooomzay wrote:
> On Sunday, 4 March 2018 04:23:07 UTC, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> [...]
>> [This PEP] imposes enormous burdens on the maintainers of at least five
>> interpreters (CPython, Stackless, Jython, IronPython, PyPy) all of
>> which will need to be re-w
On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 12:26 AM, Ooomzay wrote:
> Well refcounts are definitely "doable": This is how the reference python
> implementation, CPython, currently manages to comply with this PEP and can
> therefore be used for RAII.
>
> This PEP is an attempt to _guarantee_ this behaviour and make t
On Sunday, 4 March 2018 03:16:31 UTC, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Chris Angelico writes:
> > Yep, cool. Now do that with all of your smart pointers being on the
> > heap too. You are not allowed to use ANY stack objects. ANY. Got it?
>
> That's both overconstraining and not even that big a problem the
On Sunday, 4 March 2018 04:23:07 UTC, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> [...]
> [This PEP] imposes enormous burdens on the maintainers of at least five
> interpreters (CPython, Stackless, Jython, IronPython, PyPy) all of which
> will need to be re-written to have RAII semantics guaranteed;
Not so:- CP
On Sunday, 4 March 2018 04:23:07 UTC, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Mar 2018 18:19:37 -0800, Ooomzay wrote:
>
> >> def function():
> >> x = open_resource()
> >> process(x)
> >> # and we're done with x now, but too lazy to explicitly close it
> >> sleep(1) # Simulate some
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