Michael McNeil Forbes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> I find that version control (VC) has many advantages for
> scientific research (I am a physicist).
>
Greg Wilson also makes that point in this note:
http://www.nature.com/naturejobs/2005/050728/full/nj7050-600b.html
Where he describes his exc
Robert Kern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> sturlamolden wrote:
...
> > 5. Versioning control? For each program there is only one
> > developer and a single or a handful users.
...
> This is one thing that a lot of people seem to get wrong: version
> control is not a burden on software development. I
Peter Maas wrote:
> This is hard to understand for an outsider. If you pass an int, a float,
> a string or any other "atomic" object to a function you have "pass by
> value" semantics. If you put a compound object like a list or a dictionary
> or any other object that acts as an editable data cont
Andy Salnikov wrote:
> Actually os.system() is rather poor replacement for the shell's
> capabilities, and it's _very_ low level, it's really a C-level code
> wrapped in Python syntax.
Since os.system() spawns a shell to execute the command,
it's theoretically capable of anything that the shell
c
Andy Salnikov wrote:
> I saw lots of awk or sed "code" embedded in scripts
In my experience, embedding any of make/sh/awk/sed in
any of the others is a nightmare of singlequote/
doublequote/backslash juggling that makes a few
tab/space problems in Python pale by comparison.
--
Greg Ewing, Comput
"Michael Tobis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>I think I agree with Steve here.
>
> I suspect you should either have sufficiently trained your users in
> Python, or have limited them to one-line statements which you could
> then strip of leading whitespace before pas
"Steve Holden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Andy Salnikov wrote:
>> "Michael Tobis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>>
>>>When you say "all kinds" of inlined code, do you have any other
>>>examples besides HTML?
>>>
>>
>> Make
I think I agree with Steve here.
I suspect you should either have sufficiently trained your users in
Python, or have limited them to one-line statements which you could
then strip of leading whitespace before passing them to Python, or even
offered the alternative of one or the other. This would n
Andy Salnikov wrote:
> "Michael Tobis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>>Indentation
>>>makes all kinds of inlined code extremely clumsy or practically
>>>impossible
>>>in Python.
>>
>>This is the only sensible argument against the indentation thing I've
>>heard.
"Michael Tobis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Indentation
>> makes all kinds of inlined code extremely clumsy or practically
>> impossible
>> in Python.
>
> This is the only sensible argument against the indentation thing I've
> heard. Python squirms about being
> Indentation
> makes all kinds of inlined code extremely clumsy or practically impossible
> in Python.
This is the only sensible argument against the indentation thing I've
heard. Python squirms about being inlined in a presentation template.
Making a direct competitor to PHP in pure Python is pr
Terry Reedy wrote:
> I believe it is Guido's current view, perhaps Google's collective view, and
> a general *nix view that such increases can just as well come thru parallel
> processes. I believe one can run separate Python processes on separate
> cores just as well as one can run separate pr
"Steve Holden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> sturlamolden wrote:
>> Robert Kern wrote:
>>
>>
>>>And you need to ask why Python is a better Matlab than Matlab?
>>
>>
>>
>> First there are a few things I don't like:
>>
>> 1. Intendation as a part of the syntax, reall
Michael Tobis:
> Python plays so well with others. For many applications, NumPy is fine.
> Otherwise write your own C or C++ or F77; building the Python bindings
> is trivial.
On Windows I have found that creating such bindings is very very
difficult... I have succed only partially, with C++, and
Robert Kern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> sturlamolden wrote:
>
>> 5. Versioning control? For each program there is only one developer and
>> a single or a handful users.
>
> I used to think like that up until two seconds before I entered this gem:
>
> $ rm `find . -name "*.pyc"`
>
> Okay, I did
sturlamolden wrote:
> Robert Kern wrote:
>
>> 1. Write grant proposals.
>>
>> 2. Advise and teach students.
>
>
> Sorry I forgot the part about writing grant applications. As for
> teaching students, I have thankfully not been bothered with that too
> much.
>
>> Yes, and this is why you will
Steve Holden schrieb:
> sturlamolden wrote:
>> First there are a few things I don't like:
>>
>> 1. Intendation as a part of the syntax, really annoying.
>>
> Troll. You think this is going away because *you* don't like it?
You are over-reacting. Keep in mind that sturlamolden has criticized
Python
Duncan Booth schrieb:
> sturlamolden wrote:
>> 1. Can python do "pass by reference"? Are datastructures represented by
>> references as in Java (I don't know yet).
>>
> Python only does "pass by reference", although it is more normally referred
> to as "pass by object reference" to distinguish it
"Magnus Lycka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> It seems the Python attitude to performance has largely been:
> Let Python take care of development speed, and let Moore's law
> and the hardware manufacturers take care of execution speed.
I think this is pretty fair,
> I have met no problems using F90 together with f2py
Thank you for the correction. I should have qualified my statement.
Our group must cope with F90 derived types to wrap a library that we
need. f2py fails to handle this case. While the f2py site alleges that
someone is working on this, I conta
Michael Tobis wrote:
> 3) speed
>
> Speed matters less in Python than in other languages because Python
> plays so well with others. For many applications, NumPy is fine.
> Otherwise write your own C or C++ or F77; building the Python bindings
> is trivial. (F9* is problematic, though in fact we
Magnus Lycka wrote:
> Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
[SNIP]
>
>> For CPU-bound number-crunching, perhaps... For I/O-bound jobs, the
>>GIL is(should be) released when ever a thread is blocked waiting for I/O
>>to complete.
>
>
> I think CPU-bound number-crunching was the big deal in this case.
> S
Magnus Lycka wrote:
> Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
>
>> I did look at Ruby once... It looked to me like the worst aspects of
>> PERL grafted onto the worst parts of old Python.
>
> Don't forget that there are portions of Smalltalk syntax
> (blocks) added in as well. I guess it could be seen as Pe
Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> I did look at Ruby once... It looked to me like the worst aspects of
> PERL grafted onto the worst parts of old Python.
Don't forget that there are portions of Smalltalk syntax
(blocks) added in as well. I guess it could be seen as Perl-NG.
Both the name 'Ruby' and
1) indentation:
I claim that this is a trivial matter. Indentation is enforced, but if
you want to end all your blocks with #end, feel free.
Or write a preprocessor to go from your preferred block style to
python's
2) self.something tedious to look at.
Again, you can somewhat work around this i
sturlamolden wrote:
> Robert Kern wrote:
>
>
>>And you need to ask why Python is a better Matlab than Matlab?
>
>
>
> First there are a few things I don't like:
>
> 1. Intendation as a part of the syntax, really annoying.
>
Troll. You think this is going away because *you* don't like it? Am
Robert Kern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
...
> > just a toy. And as Matlab's run-time does reference counting insted of
> > proper garbage collection, any datastructure more complex than arrays
> > are sure to leak memory (I believe Python also suffered from this as
> > some point).
>
> Python st
> First there are a few things I don't like:
Hi, I will respond to things that others haven't responded yet
> 2. How good is matplotlib/pylab? I tried to install it but only get
> error messages so I haven't tested it. But plotting capabilities is
> really major issue.
I don't know because I hav
Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> > 1. Can python do "pass by reference"? Are datastructures represented by
> > references as in Java (I don't know yet).
> >
> Everything in Python is a reference to an object. I think the
> question you want is more on the lines of: Can I change an object that
> ha
sturlamolden wrote:
> First there are a few things I don't like:
>
> 1. Intendation as a part of the syntax, really annoying.
Each to his own. I find having the compiler enforce indentation rules is a
real benefit. There's nothing quite so annoying as having 'coding
standards' you are supposed
Robert Kern wrote:
> And you need to ask why Python is a better Matlab than Matlab?
First there are a few things I don't like:
1. Intendation as a part of the syntax, really annoying.
2. The "self.something" syntax is really tedious (look to ruby)!
4. Multithreading and parallel execution is
sturlamolden wrote:
> Robert Kern wrote:
>>Yes, and this is why you will keep saying, "My simulation is running too
>>slowly," and "My simulation is running out of memory." All the vectorization
>>you
>>do won't make a quadratic algorithm run in O(n log(n)) time. Knowing the right
>>algorithm and
Brian Blais wrote:
> Robert Kern wrote:
>
>>That said, we have an excellent array object far superior to Matlab's.
>>
>> http://numeric.scipy.org/
>
> I'd like to ask, being new to python, in which ways is this array object far
> superior
> to Matlab's? (I'm not being sarcastic, I really would
sturlamolden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> just a toy. And as Matlab's run-time does reference counting insted of
> proper garbage collection, any datastructure more complex than arrays
> are sure to leak memory (I believe Python also suffered from this as
> some point).
Yes, that was fixed in the
Michael Tobis wrote:
>> $ rm `find . -name "*.pyc"`
>
> Ouch. Is that a true story?
Yup. Fortunately, it was a small, purely personal project, so it was no huge
loss. It was enough for me to start using CVS on my small, purely personal
projects, though!
--
Robert Kern
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"I hav
> $ rm `find . -name "*.pyc"`
Ouch. Is that a true story?
While we're remeniscing about bad typos and DEC, I should tell the
story about the guy who clobberred his work because his English wasn't
very strong.
Under RT-11, all file management was handled by a program called PIP.
For example to
David Treadwell wrote:
> My ability to think of data structures was stunted BECAUSE of
> Fortran and BASIC. It's very difficult for me to give up my bottom-up
> programming style, even though I write better, clearer and more
> useful code when I write top-down.
That is also the case with Matla
Robert Kern wrote:
> 1. Write grant proposals.
>
> 2. Advise and teach students.
Sorry I forgot the part about writing grant applications. As for
teaching students, I have thankfully not been bothered with that too
much.
> Yes, and this is why you will keep saying, "My simulation is running t
Robert Kern wrote:
>
> That said, we have an excellent array object far superior to Matlab's.
>
> http://numeric.scipy.org/
>
I'd like to ask, being new to python, in which ways is this array object far
superior
to Matlab's? (I'm not being sarcastic, I really would like to know!)
I've hear
Brian Blais wrote:
> here, I've found python to be good, but not great. matplotlib (pylab) is a
> really
> great thing, but is not as straightforward as plotting in Matlab. Either,
> you have a
> window which locks the process until you close it, or you do interactive
> mode, but
> the wind
sturlamolden wrote:
> Michael Tobis skrev:
>
> Being a scientist, I can tell you that your not getting it right. If
> you speak computer science or business talk no scientist are going to
> listen. Lets just see how you argue:
I see we've forgone the standard conventions of politeness and gone st
On Mar 4, 2006, at 11:16 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Mar 2006 14:23:10 -0500, David Treadwell
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> declaimed the following in
> comp.lang.python:
>
>> needed programming, be it CS or chemical engineering, taught it in
>> a [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> very linear, bottom-u
Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
>F90/F95 is scary, isn't it...
>F77 wasn't that big a change from FORTRAN-IV (F66) (hmmm, we're due
> for another standard, aren't we? 1966, 1977, 1990 [95 was a tweak]...)
Fortran 2003 is the latest standard -- see
http://www.fortran.com/fortran/fcd_ann
On Sat, 4 Mar 2006 14:23:10 -0500
David Treadwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mar 4, 2006, at 5:55 AM, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> > On Fri, 3 Mar 2006 22:05:19 -0500, David Treadwell
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> declaimed the following
> > in comp.lang.python:
> >> 3. I demand a general-purpose tool
On Mar 4, 2006, at 5:55 AM, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Mar 2006 22:05:19 -0500, David Treadwell
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> declaimed the following in
> comp.lang.python:
>
>
>> My ability to think of data structures was stunted BECAUSE of
>> Fortran and BASIC. It's very difficult for me to
sturlamolden wrote:
>
> Typically a scientist need to:
>
> 1. do a lot of experiments
>
> 2. analyse the data from experiments
>
> 3. run a simulation now and then
>
unless you are a theorist! in that case, I would order this list backwards.
>
> 1. Time is money. Time is the only thing th
There is a range of folks doing scientific programming. Not all of them
are described correctly by your summary, but many are. The article is
aimed not at them, but rather at institutions that develop engineered
Fortran models using multipuurpose teams and formal methods. I
appreciate your comments
Terry Hancock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In fact, if I had one complaint about Python, it was the
> "with a suitable array of add-ons" caveat. The proprietary
> alternative had all of that rolled into one package (abeit
> it glopped into one massive and arcane namespace), whereas
> there was no
On 3 Mar 2006 17:33:31 -0800
"sturlamolden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 1. Time is money. Time is the only thing that a scientist
> cannot afford to lose. Licensing fees for Matlab is not an
> issue. If we can spend $1,000,000 on specialised equipment
> we can pay whatever Mathworks or Lahey charg
On Mar 3, 2006, at 8:33 PM, sturlamolden wrote:
> Michael Tobis skrev:
>
> Being a scientist, I can tell you that your not getting it right. If
> you speak computer science or business talk no scientist are going to
> listen. Lets just see how you argue:
>
>
>> These include: source and version c
Michael Tobis skrev:
Being a scientist, I can tell you that your not getting it right. If
you speak computer science or business talk no scientist are going to
listen. Lets just see how you argue:
> These include: source and version control and audit trails for runs,
> build system management, te
Maybe I'd also emphasize the nice COM interface that allow your wrapped
Fortran to be made available in your Excel macros in a snap. It happens
that Fortran programmers/users tends to be poor Office users except for
Excel which they master at unbelievable level...
My own best low work/high user sat
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Georg Brandl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Michael Tobis wrote:
>> Someone asked me to write a brief essay regarding the value-add
>> proposition for Python in the Fortran community. Slightly modified to
>> remove a few climatology-related specifics, here it is.
>
>Gr
Hi,
Like it - an area that doesn't come out strongly enough for me is
Python's ability to drop down to and integrate with low level
algorithms. This allows me to to optimise the key bits of design in
python very quickly and then if I still need more poke i can drop down
to low level programmin
I have posted your essay in a thread "Python for Fortran programmers"
in comp.lang.fortran since it is written in part for a Fortran
audience, and since you are more likely to get critical (but hopefully
constructive) comments there.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Michael Tobis wrote:
> Someone asked me to write a brief essay regarding the value-add
> proposition for Python in the Fortran community. Slightly modified to
> remove a few climatology-related specifics, here it is.
Great text. Do you want to put it onto a Wiki page at wiki.python.org?
Georg
--
Michael Tobis wrote:
> Someone asked me to write a brief essay regarding the value-add
> proposition for Python in the Fortran community. Slightly modified to
> remove a few climatology-related specifics, here it is.
>
Thank you - this was very good reading.
> I would welcome comments and correc
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Michael Tobis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
.
.
.
>Among the Python components and Python bindings of special interest to
>scientists are the elegant and powerful matplotlib plotting package,
>which
Nicely done. But now for a couple of small nits:
> other language is that they are suddenly dramatically several times
> more productive
'suddenly dramatically several times' seems a bit redundantly
repeditively excessive, don't you think?
> Among the Python components and Python bindings of
Someone asked me to write a brief essay regarding the value-add
proposition for Python in the Fortran community. Slightly modified to
remove a few climatology-related specifics, here it is.
I would welcome comments and corrections, and would be happy to
contribute some version of this to the Pytho
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