Re: [R-sig-eco] AIC / BIC vs P-Values / MAM

2010-08-05 Thread Maarten de Groot
Hi Chris, There are many methods (Boyce index, maxKappa, etc.) to evaluated the predictions of a model when applied to test dataset. More information is given in the paper of Hirzel et al 2006 Ecological Modelling. Furthermore, have a look at the package PresenceAbsence

[R-sig-eco] adonis and model selection

2010-08-05 Thread Maarten de Groot
Dear list, I was wondering if there is a possibility to do model selection with the method adonis of the package Vegan. If so, could any one explain me about it or give me a hint were to look? Kind regards, Maarten ___ R-sig-ecology mailing list

Re: [R-sig-eco] adonis and model selection

2010-08-05 Thread Jari Oksanen
On 5/08/10 09:51 AM, Maarten de Groot maarten.degr...@nib.si wrote: Dear list, I was wondering if there is a possibility to do model selection with the method adonis of the package Vegan. If so, could any one explain me about it or give me a hint were to look? Maarten, Not automatically:

[R-sig-eco] AIC / BIC vs P-Values in lmer

2010-08-05 Thread Philip Dixon
I believe the recent discussion about AIC or p-values has missed a crucial practical issue. The AIC statistic reported by a default call to lmer() has NOTHING to do with the choice of fixed effects. lmer() uses reml to define the fit of a model. REML (residual ML or restricted ML) is a log

Re: [R-sig-eco] AIC / BIC vs P-Values in lmer

2010-08-05 Thread Chris Mcowen
Hi Philip, Thanks very much for this, i was completely unaware. I have read various papers using lmer to calculate the AIC statistic and none have mentioned this? I have just run through a random section of my models with this correction, however the AIC / BIC values are the same with the

Re: [R-sig-eco] AIC / BIC vs P-Values in lmer

2010-08-05 Thread Ben Bolker
Chris Mcowen chrismco...@... writes: Hi Philip, Thanks very much for this, i was completely unaware. I have read various papers using lmer to calculate the AIC statistic and none have mentioned this? I have just run through a random section of my models with this correction, however

Re: [R-sig-eco] AIC / BIC vs P-Values in lmer

2010-08-05 Thread Chris Mcowen
They are described as “nearly” interchangeable because the ‘REML’ argument only applies to calls to ‘lmer’ and the ‘nAGQ’ argument only applies to calls to ‘glmer’ I am using lmer? Thanks Chris On 5 Aug 2010, at 14:16, Manuel Morales wrote: REML does not apply for glmer fits:

Re: [R-sig-eco] AIC / BIC vs P-Values in lmer

2010-08-05 Thread Crowe, Andrew
Chris/Ben The lack of effect of the REML parameter is simply explained by the fact you are fitting a binomial model. This causes the lmer call to default to a glmer call in which the REML parameter is ignored. I also note that you are specifying order/family in the random term, which I

Re: [R-sig-eco] AIC / BIC vs P-Values in lmer

2010-08-05 Thread Crowe, Andrew
In this case where a family is completely contained within an order, I think that once the variance at family level has been fit there is no remaining variance left to explain at the order level. Thus you should get the same values for the fixed effects with both model specifications. Where a

Re: [R-sig-eco] AIC / BIC vs P-Values in lmer

2010-08-05 Thread Dunbar, Michael
Hi Andy I don't think you're right, although there are two different questions. One is whether introducing a higher level grouping where the structure is nested allows any variance to be defined at that level. It obviously depends on the data, but by and large the answer is yes, because the

[R-sig-eco] AIC / BIC in lmer and glmer

2010-08-05 Thread Philip Dixon
My apologies to the list. My e-mail this morning about interpreting AIC in lmer() was off-target. I did not notice that Chris's call to lmer() included family = binomial, which means the actual estimation is done by glmer(). glmer() ignores the REML= argument. glmer() only does approximate

Re: [R-sig-eco] AIC / BIC in lmer and glmer

2010-08-05 Thread Chris Howden
Better to be safe than sorry. And I for one am glad u mentioned it. It's they type of knowledge one might not pick up when using R to fit a mixed model for the first time. It's certainly something I'll be keeping in mind should I ever use R for mixed models!!! Chris Howden Founding Partner

Re: [R-sig-eco] AIC / BIC vs P-Values / MAM

2010-08-05 Thread Chris Howden
Hi Chris, I often do the following: ·Look at MSE ·Plot the residuals ·Plot predicted vs. actual (should be approximately linear) o (very similar to the residual plot, but clients seem to understand it better) ·Look at the min and max residuals, and think