Hi Goffi, On Tue, 2024-05-21 at 18:04 +0200, Goffi wrote: > Could you please tell me more about this use case and why it isn't > covered by > Jingle transmission? Specifically, what is the advantage of sending > <message> > through the server instead of handling it directly? I'd like to > understand > your perspective better.
The use case I'm thinking of has low throughput and only short usage time. I might be sending 10 or 20 key events within a short time and then nothing for several hours. Technically, this can all be done with Jingle, but for just a few keys, the overhead of starting a Jingle session just for those keys probably adds way more latency than sending those keys via <message> through an XMPP server. And using Jingle would require way more complex software on both sides. Without a proper specification to send keys, I would do this via non standardized body messages. Works, but isn't particularly nice. I also noticed that in cases where XEP-0174 Serverless Messaging is used, an additional Jingle connection probably doesn't add a lot of benefit either. > That's the job of the controlling client to assure consistency. That > may be > specified in business rules though. > > The wire format comes from the web API, but we are not developing > browsers, we > are developing XMPP clients. Well, XMPP clients that also speak a ton of other protocols, including the one you are just creating. My point is that not only does this need to be specified in the business rules, but also a ton of other things. There are probably a lot of side cases that you don't cover and where I can't reasonably expect Council to think about them. > And we come back to the point where I don't see the need to another > way of > sending input, when there is already a low latency one. I'm not > saying that > you are wrong, I'm saying that I don't see why we should have another > mechanism, when there is already low latency way to send input data > to any > device. There is no best way to do remote control (or precisely, input event sending). Low latency is a nice property to have and certainly doesn't hurt if it comes for free, but it doesn't come for free, it adds complexity, requires a multi-message setup phase and often the management of additional network sockets. And depending on the use case, it might be less important to have low latency than low complexity. The lowest complexity way to provide a streaming transport with Jingle is IBB and it still requires connection setup and is strictly worse than <message>'s for most purposes (except transporting of large binary blobs that exceed single stanza size limits). Both Jingle and especially WebRTC come with huge complexity. Your WebRTC library and your existing code for working with it might take away most of this from you, but that doesn't mean it's not there. By using Jingle and WebRTC you're effectively excluding clients, devices and platforms that can't easily run libwebrtc or any other popular WebRTC implementation. > > It's not arbitrarily at all, it's discarding data which don't make > sense in > this context, and it has been done while doing an implementation with > Freedesktop remote control portal. I was already guessing it's not arbitrarily, but probably what made sense in your setup and for your usecase. However, not knowing any of that it *seems* arbitrary. The RemoteDesktop portal was clearly designed for remote desktop use cases, not other remote control cases. However, as you already mention that you designed the data sent around what is needed for the RemoteDesktop portal, why not send the information directly in a format that matches the design of RemoteDesktop portal, instead of a mix of Web API interfaces and RemoteDesktop portal? Also I noticed that the RemoteDesktop portal does not have a notion of an independent wheel, the mouse wheel is tied to the pointing device, why did you choose to not do it the same way? I also checked Wayland protocol and wheel axis events are tied to a wl_pointer as well - and as far as I know, apps do expect scroll wheel to be tied to a pointer so you know where to scroll. > Issue with [0,1] coordinate is that you go into prevision loss or > rounding error troubles. I think that ideally the screen size should > be send > separately and updated. The precision on a double (64 bit floating point) remain the same, no matter if you scale [0,1] or [0,<screen-width>]. The precision is about 15 decimal digits which should be more than enough (you barely see screen coordinates with more than 4 decimal digits), even if you do calculations on them (which may result in a few bits of precision loss). > It would not work in the case of a FPS when you have already reached > the right > corner of your screen and you need to go right again. Assuming you refer the FPS games, those "lock" the cursor position to the screen center, so they never have that issue. To correctly reproduce this behavior you need a back channel to the controlling app so it can know the cursor position and/or lock if it is changed on the controlled device. (Above might not be correct on all platforms.) Also I did not intend to say that you shouldn't support movement vectors (like touchpads), I was just saying that absolute pointing could be relative to screen size, so that you don't need to know the absolute screen size. > While, if I had time and resources, yes I definitely think that CBOR > or similar > would be a good serialization protocol. Bet let's not go down this > rabbit hole > ;) The advantage of going down this rabbit hole is: a) We improve XMPP for other usecases b) You can specify this protocol using XML and use Jingle XML streams. As the CBOR<>XML translation will take care of creating the CBOR for you, you still get the CBOR for this protocol, but without the need to make it explicit. And in cases where people prefer to not use CBOR, they can still use this protocol, just with XML. It's a win-win for everyone (except that you as the specification author have more work). If going forward, you still want to specify your own payload/application protocol (that is, the CBOR thing that is transferred with the Jingle streaming transport), I'd like to ask you: - To evaluate if a XEP is the right place to specify such a protocol, of if it is more a generic thing that could well be used outside XMPP and maybe should also be specified elsewhere. - If you consider a XEP to be the right place and want to stick with your CBOR protocol, I'd like to ask you to split it into two parts: 1. the payload protocol (sections 8 and 9 of the proposal) and 2. The Jingle signaling protocol (sections 5 to 7 of your proposal). This way the protocol can be used and referenced easily for use outside of Jingle context. If you feel it's possible to transition to a <message> based approach, this can of course be a single XEP (that will barely have anything to do with Jingle except for anecdotal mentioning that it can be used with Jingle XML stream or serverless messaging for lower latency). Best, Marvin _______________________________________________ Standards mailing list -- standards@xmpp.org To unsubscribe send an email to standards-le...@xmpp.org
