Re: [swift-evolution] Learning from SE-0025, a breeding group for Swift proposals

2017-04-20 Thread Tino Heth via swift-evolution
> Once someone starts shipping something that depends on a feature they get > very grumpy when it gets taken away. Well, it happened before, and people's life went on without tuple splat and currying… ;-) I don't think an open Beta would add that much value on its own — but imho the aspect of t

Re: [swift-evolution] Learning from SE-0025, a breeding group for Swift proposals

2017-04-20 Thread Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution
> On Apr 18, 2017, at 12:00 AM, David Hart via swift-evolution > mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org>> wrote: > > Here's my rough idea: > The Swift compiler gains a new off-by-default `next` version triggerable with > the `-swift-version next` flag. > All controversial proposals start their implem

Re: [swift-evolution] Learning from SE-0025, a breeding group for Swift proposals

2017-04-18 Thread David Hart via swift-evolution
> On 19 Apr 2017, at 06:51, Chris Lattner wrote: > > >> On Apr 18, 2017, at 12:00 AM, David Hart via swift-evolution >> wrote: >> >> Hello community, >> >> I'm happy to see that SE-0169 got accepted and that we've patched the issues >> of SE-0025. But it's been a difficult process. And I c

Re: [swift-evolution] Learning from SE-0025, a breeding group for Swift proposals

2017-04-18 Thread Chris Lattner via swift-evolution
> On Apr 18, 2017, at 12:00 AM, David Hart via swift-evolution > wrote: > > Hello community, > > I'm happy to see that SE-0169 got accepted and that we've patched the issues > of SE-0025. But it's been a difficult process. And I can't stop asking myself > if it could have been avoided. The c

Re: [swift-evolution] Learning from SE-0025, a breeding group for Swift proposals

2017-04-18 Thread Tino Heth via swift-evolution
very subjective { I see a similarity with SE-0169: It's fighting symptoms instead of causes. } (less subjective) Afaics, even members of the core team have their quarrels with the evolution process, and I want to encourage everyone to talk openly about them. Right now, we are at a turning point,

Re: [swift-evolution] Learning from SE-0025, a breeding group for Swift proposals

2017-04-18 Thread David Hart via swift-evolution
> On 18 Apr 2017, at 10:12, David Waite wrote: > > >> On Apr 18, 2017, at 1:00 AM, David Hart via swift-evolution >> mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org>> wrote: >> >> All controversial proposals start their implementation in that version. > > Just one more note here, in regards to SE-0025 > >

Re: [swift-evolution] Learning from SE-0025, a breeding group for Swift proposals

2017-04-18 Thread David Waite via swift-evolution
> On Apr 18, 2017, at 1:00 AM, David Hart via swift-evolution > wrote: > > All controversial proposals start their implementation in that version. Just one more note here, in regards to SE-0025 Its important to realize that the swift evolution process isn’t a pure democracy, or even a democr

Re: [swift-evolution] Learning from SE-0025, a breeding group for Swift proposals

2017-04-18 Thread David Waite via swift-evolution
> On Apr 18, 2017, at 1:00 AM, David Hart via swift-evolution > wrote: > > I'm happy to see that SE-0169 got accepted and that we've patched the issues > of SE-0025. But it's been a difficult process. And I can't stop asking myself > if it could have been avoided. The crux of the problem is th

[swift-evolution] Learning from SE-0025, a breeding group for Swift proposals

2017-04-18 Thread David Hart via swift-evolution
Hello community, I'm happy to see that SE-0169 got accepted and that we've patched the issues of SE-0025. But it's been a difficult process. And I can't stop asking myself if it could have been avoided. The crux of the problem is that source-compatibility is now becoming a very strong requireme