Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

You're talking about specific coaches, whereas I'm talking about averages (Entine?). The question is not which level produces the best (and worst) athletes, but which is most likely to produce the most improvement. If you have two similar motivated athletes, one with less developed talent, than

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

>Of course, it's a bit of a catch-22 as the athletes that "slip" to the >DIII level are a little less likely to have peaked at an early age and >might have more room for improvement, thus making the coaching success >rate look markedly better. > >Dan Dan, Sorry, but I have to strongly disagree he

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

Of course, it's a bit of a catch-22 as the athletes that "slip" to the DIII level are a little less likely to have peaked at an early age and might have more room for improvement, thus making the coaching success rate look markedly better. Dan --- Ed Friedman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > If I we

RE: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

I moved down in distance from high school to college. I soon discovered that the "fast" guys weren't so fast after all. ;-) Amazing what hard work, focus, and a little luck can do for you. malmo > I wonder if this is because a lot of these guys "move up"` in distance > because they feel they a

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

GHTFNedit wrote: So how does that fit into the equation ???>> > > The coaching/team situation at Stanford now is different than it was just a > few years ago and certainly different than at other schools where one > receives "good coaching." > Agreed .. Lannana is one of the best .. But shouldn'

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

Brian wrote: > I could name a bunch, but won't because I know you all can too. > > Turn it around to look at the guys who end up ACTUALLY moving to a very high > level in College and internationally and you see many who were "second tier" > nationally. Many of them were not "great" HS'ers. Look

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

Conning said:   I believe there are two reasons for the lack of improvement by high school runners: 1) maturity and 2) outstanding high school coaching. Dale Scott (El Cerrito High School, CA 1972), who ran 1:48.5n for 880 yards, was a fully-mature man in high school.  He also

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

GHTFNedit wrote: > A private poster offered this analysis to me: > > < school-- grades! How many superstars in college and post-college went > through the junior college system? Off hand I can think of Calvin and Alvin, > but not many others. William Reed went to a top academic school (Morehou

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

Brian wrote: > This indeed does seem to be the case (the top-level HS girls continuing at > that level compared to a smaller rate of top-end HS boys who are able to > persist there). > > One of the reasons that has nothing to do with physiology or maturation is > that many Top-10 type HS sprinter

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

A private poster offered this analysis to me: <> Add Mo Greene to the JC file. gh

RE: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

> If I were I high school athlete I'd run away from such a coach > and seek out > one who had statistics of 100% of their athletes getting PR's > each season, > with almost all ending up with very significant improvement by the end of > their collegiate career. If I were a high school athlete I'

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

My personal theory of why the lack of improvement in college is that too many Div. I colleges hire coaches more for their recruiting ability than for their coaching ability. How many Div. I coaches try to recruit high school athletes with tales of how many championships they've won or how many

RE: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

Netter Brian wrote: > Paul Thomas said that College was over before he realized he had "pissed > away" (his words) a lot of good years. > I know Paul Tomas too. I met him when I worked at PR Bar. He said the same thing to me out at a bar:). Thing about Paul is that while a great runner he

RE: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

st of us have seen this or participated. -Brian McEwen -Original Message- From: Conway [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 12:07 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement Rohl wrote: > Netters > > Dan asked: &

RE: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

2001 3:46 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement Netters Dan wrote: > Somehow I don't think 4:10 milers belong in the same conversation as 45 > second 400 runners. One could argue that any 4:10 type belongs among the > second tier group -- not

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

--- "Mcewen, Brian T" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > One of the reasons that has nothing to do with physiology or maturation > is that many Top-10 type HS sprinters (male) very often play football > as well. That sounds like as good an explanation as any. --- Conway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Je

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

In a message dated Fri, 5 Jan 2001 12:14:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Conway" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: << Michael Stember who was on the Olympic Team at 1500 was from a high school here in Northern California - Jesuit in Sacramento .. Their honor role for milers reads like a Who's Who of h

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: January 5, 2001 5:07:27 PM GMT Subject: Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement Rohl wrote: > Netters > > Dan asked: > > Is this evident in any group other than male sprinters? > > > yes Distance runners.

RE: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

This is what is scary about the potential of Dathan Ritzenhein.  He just turned 18 (12/30/00) so he cannot compete as a junior athlete when he is a college frosh.  But, he reportedly is aiming for the World junior XC Championships (and the trials of course) in February and March.   He is on

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

Rohl wrote: > Netters > > Dan asked: > > Is this evident in any group other than male sprinters? > > > yes Distance runners. In 83 there was Miles Irish, Mike Starr and John > Carrolitti all sub 4:10 milers in H.S. Of the group the only one to make > to the 88 and 92 trials was Charles Marsella

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

In a message dated Fri, 5 Jan 2001 9:53:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bruce Lehane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: << The original question is why doesn't the 45 second high school 400 meter runner not go on to run 44's or 43's later in his career. I suggest that it has primarily to do with social/

RE: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

ursday, January 04, 2001 9:20 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement At 08:02 PM 01/04/2001 EST, Geoff Thurner wrote: >Michael Granville??? Speaking of UCLA athletes, what ever happened to Kim >Mortensen? She got a back injury as sophomore. The last p

RE: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

nd are at 47-48 at 17-18. How your progression looks to the fans is all in how fast you reach your peak. -Brian McEwen -Original Message- From: Dan Kaplan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 7:56 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improv

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

Netters Dan wrote: > Somehow I don't think 4:10 milers belong in the same conversation as 45 > second 400 runners. One could argue that any 4:10 type belongs among the > second tier group -- not the group the original question was inquiring > about. True Dan. I don't disagree at all. But the

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

The original question is why doesn't the 45 second high school 400 meter runner not go on to run 44's or 43's later in his career. I suggest that it has primarily to do with social/psychological issues. The early maturity that contributed to his dominance in high school no longer works to his ad

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

In a message dated 1/4/01 11:53:49 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << This ephemerality of fame is also pronounced in 800 meter runners. Has any HS record holder in the event ever had even a successful college career? >> Two exceptions would be John Marshall and George Kersh. Marshall set an ind

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

<> Her back injury and other physical problems were symptoms of her eating disorder. She quit the sport altogether and majored in music. Arr! Dale

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

The fall off of top HS athletes is not confined to the sprints, it is a common occurrence across the board.  There are hundreds of names we all could bring up in this discussion. I think it due to physical maturity.  The common term is "man-child".  From my elementary physiology women mature faster

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

Somehow I don't think 4:10 milers belong in the same conversation as 45 second 400 runners. One could argue that any 4:10 type belongs among the second tier group -- not the group the original question was inquiring about. Dan --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > yes Distance runners. In 83 there wa

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

llege. My theory is that they were more interested in fast cars. David Lesley -- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement >Date: Thu, Jan 4, 2001, 1:23 PM > >Netters > >Dan asked: >> Is this evident in

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

We may be victims of a logical fallacy. We may not see the variations of non-number one athletes as clearly as we see the variations of the number one. We may not notice when, for example, number 4 goes to 5 but quickly notice when number one is no longer number one. After all, from the top ther

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

Netters Dan asked: > Is this evident in any group other than male sprinters? yes Distance runners. In 83 there was Miles Irish, Mike Starr and John Carrolitti all sub 4:10 milers in H.S. Of the group the only one to make to the 88 and 92 trials was Charles Marsella a guy who was second to

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

--- Bruce Lehane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > High school leaders are adulated past reason. Their exploits are > trumpeted beyond their due and this puts those individuals in a very > vulnerable spot when they have to move up to the next level of > competition, where they get battered around rout

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

At 08:02 PM 01/04/2001 EST, Geoff Thurner wrote: >Michael Granville??? Speaking of UCLA athletes, what ever happened to Kim >Mortensen? She got a back injury as sophomore. The last performance I have for her is 8th place at the Chile Pepper XC 18-Oct-1997. The following article ran in the UC

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

High school leaders are adulated past reason. Their exploits are trumpeted beyond their due and this puts those individuals in a very vulnerable spot when they have to move up to the next level of competition, where they get battered around routinely. The next level of high school runners have a

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

Michael Granville??? Speaking of UCLA athletes, what ever happened to Kim Mortensen? Ryan In a message dated Thu, 4 Jan 2001 2:04:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Conway" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: << Talking about West and Mack, and Sanford and Green gave rise to a question . Why is that

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

Could the reason be that these second tier athletes have a greater desire to succeed. People tend to work harder to get to the top, but some of us tend to get complacent after we reach what we believe is the top. The gifted athletes usually do not have to work as hard to reach the top. At the a

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Is it the same story for the HS girls? It seems like the top talent > > there is more likely to remain the top talent.>> > > Flameout rate on the women's side is far higher, is my guess. > > But in looking quickly at this year's top 10s in the 100: men had > 7

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

Jimmie asked: >Concerning your question, could it be resources that have caused some are best >athletes to under achieve? During past threads there have been many comments on >training facilities, hours available to train, finances, and so forth and so on. Could be, could be expectations, an

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

In a message dated Thu, 4 Jan 2001 6:25:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, Dan Kaplan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: << That wouldn't explain why the "second tier" of HS sprint talent tends to rise to the top, which was Conway's question. We're talking about people coming out of the same system (presum

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

--- Jimmie Manning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > could it be resources that have caused some are best > athletes to under achieve? During past threads there have been many > comments on training facilities, hours available to train, finances, > and so forth and so on. That wouldn't explain why the

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

In a message dated Thu, 4 Jan 2001 5:47:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Conway" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: <> Answer to that seems easy to me. One consideration is that the superstars you cite belong to a class of outliers who simply peak at a very young age. More likely is the fact that the

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

Jimmie Manning wrote: > There may be some question concerning the success of Tony Darden. He was an > Olympic qualifier, but someone (President Carter) decided to mix athletics with > politics. He also beat the Cuban great (Juan ??spelling) in the Pan Am Games. I > believe that would be like so

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

There may be some question concerning the success of Tony Darden. He was an Olympic qualifier, but someone (President Carter) decided to mix athletics with politics. He also beat the Cuban great (Juan ??spelling) in the Pan Am Games. I believe that would be like someone beating M. Johnson in a p

Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement

There may be some question concerning the success of Tony Darden. He was an Olympic qualifier, but someone (President Carter) decided to mix athletics with politics. He also beat the Cuban great (Juan ??spelling) in the Pan Am Games. I believe that would be like someone beating M. Johnson in a p