quot; I
remain (barely) in a listening mode to other suggestions, but they are
disappearing from this conversation like the light in the sky after sunset.
"It is what it is." (It's a settled matter).
SteveA
California
of us here that your
use of Esperanto and Polish, as well as your insistence that widespread usage
of English in OSM diminish to your specification has failed to gain traction.
May we ask you quite directly to cease with this campaign of yours, please? I
agree with Alan M. that
ces where we can do this but now do not, let's fix that so we do.
SteveA
California
> On Feb 22, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Clifford Snow wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 12:49 PM Wayne Emerson, Jr. via talk
> wrote:
> The OSM World Discord server usually has people on that
Or, using unsigned_ref=* is an option.
SteveA
> On Feb 14, 2020, at 1:08 PM, Joseph Eisenberg
> wrote:
>
> > “ they don't really use numbers for roads except internally”
>
> If they do not post signs, and locals do not usually know the numbers, then
> there shoul
in the absence of a
sign or other OTG evidence, how ELSE are we supposed to know what to tag
something? Please don't answer "ask locals" or "everybody just knows that" as
neither is a very good component of a "rule," as OTG claims to be (but isn't).
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in lies
what we have to fix: proof by contrapositive fails, when it shouldn't
(logically), because OSM has made and does make numerous exceptions. Let's
clarify how, when and why we do this, at least as a "first cut" at how we
address this contradiction.
I hope that cl
on here and in the Good Practices
Talk page I linked earlier.
Yes, OTG has some work to do. Again, I think we can get there.
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Thanks, Mikel, but may I please ask what you mean by "control boundaries?"
SteveA
> On Feb 11, 2020, at 1:36 PM, Mikel Maron wrote:
>
> btw, I think it's entirely compatible to follow On the Ground, with tagging
> that recognizes the distinction between political
realistically addressed, likely in our wiki where we state the
"rule" today, though going forward much better state a "guideline". I think we
can get there, but it remains under discussion / construction.
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Done:
https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Talk:Good_practice#Supplementing_and_clarifying_the_On_The_Ground_.22rule.22
Follow it there, if you like.
SteveA
> On Feb 8, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Yuri Astrakhan wrote:
>
> I am in favor of this or similar language. I think for a more vote-like
>
ant that the phrasing is first vetted (here or on the Talk page)
and I do think something like this should be entered into our Good_practice
wiki to clarify OTG as we have discussed it here.
Thanks in advance for any brief review and comments / suggestions you might
offer,
SteveA
__
sult the source" (freely,
in all senses) to determine "what is" even (or especially) if something is NOT
on-the-ground, we actually DO largely encompass many of the exceptions of "but
I can't SEE it on the ground." We may have more work to do to be more
explicit, but t
On Feb 8, 2020, at 2:58 AM, Rory McCann wrote:
> On 07.02.20 20:12, stevea wrote:
>> A well-known example is (national, other) boundaries, which
>> frequently do not exist "on the ground,"
> National borders don't exist on the ground? huh? Have you ever actually
So, rather than being fully enthusiastic about the absolute application of OTG
(we simply can't), let's realize that it is a good guideline which should be
followed where it can, yet it must include some flexibility which allows for
exceptions. I haven't seen that said (here, yet, perhaps i
turing this for some time, but as it would be a first (for USA rail
wiki pages) I'd like some feedback in case there might be a better way to do
this I haven't thought of.
If interested, please see https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Talk:California/Railroads
for the further discuss
consensus-based documentation of "how we do this" IS being used) be whacked
down to where it IS realistic. One benefit from doing so is that low-hanging
fruit, on a short menu, looks that much easier to achieve towards completion,
and therefore might even make great results MORE
at is wholly uncalled for. I sometimes say to people, "thank you
for your opinions." With you, here and now, I do not.
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e of wiki,
especially during a project that is still sort of "wet cement being mixed"
(nothing wrong with that, it has to happen, it happens well now) please feel
free to modify these values as you see fit. It was meant to be a starting
point, may you continu
ead consensus that OSM should not contain postal
(ZIP) code data in the USA, as ZIP codes (strictly speaking) cannot always (or
even usually?) be defined as geographic areas, they are rather better thought
of as a "routing algorithm to help facilitate mail delivery."
SteveA
h-language list.
Peace,
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speranto Club, so I know the
reasoning behind why people might want to learn the language. But I don't
believe it was ever meant to be rammed down anybody's throat. (Which is what
that felt like).
Opinions are mine.
Thanks for your understanding and peace to you,
SteveA
__
h I agree suffices for what it is) and other unusual hazards
like places which have a propensity to be repeatedly struck by lightning
(that's a weird one, and kind of controversial, I know).
As before, I doubt "hazard" or "no-go" will get more tractio
That is an outstanding way to say a whole bunch of good stuff all at once. +1
is an understatement.
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will be a
compromise, but I agree that we should strive for the most appropriate access
to a culturally-appropriate solution. Great results seldom come from anything
less than serious effort. I encourage continuing work on this important
continuing development of OSM. Good dialog here is
ttps://wiki.osm.org/wiki/United_States/Railways
and
https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/OpenRailwayMap/Tagging_in_North_America
although I leave how and where exactly (or even whether you do so) up to you.
Thank you,
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d" for accuracy).
Finally, you could also add a similar "In North America..." text blurb directly
to
https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Tag:railway%3Dhalt#Distinction_Between_Halt_and_Station
(there is already one bullet point that is specific to Germany).
SteveA
_
t and station as you describe it (and that this diverges from
how the ORM wiki strictly defines halt).
SteveA
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has some of those.
A node tagged hazard=* might work well. This feels like a rough sketch only
(still) despite getting shot down repeatedly as an unfocused or wholly wrong
idea.
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r future cooperation.
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Whoops, "I can read PO and EO, too" is what I meant to type.
See, it's this "let's not get snarled up in differing languages thing." We can
do this, we have.
It's easy to goof things up and we shouldn't.
SteveA
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an read PO and EN, too. Poorly. And I suppose, luckily for you.
Please abide that English, simply, ain't, isn't going away here. I speak it,
billions of us do.
We are here to make a map, largely agreeing with each other as we do.
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May we please see posts in English (any dialect) here, please? That is, if you
wish them (widely) read, here.
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ve passion
or energy to go much further with it, next up, please! (Yeah).
What a great project, OSM. (I truly mean that).
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-sensitive hazards on Earth. We should map and render them, but
to do so, we might resurrect a more-modern version of the hazard tag proposal.
Or anything else that would do the job. These do seem like good, smart things
to map.
Good dialog, thank you everybody.
SteveA
> On Dec 31, 2019, at 10
liffs are not transient at all and would likely remain as long-term
hazards.
I think we should revisit this rather than dismiss it matter-of-factly as "oh,
that hazard thing that pops its head up every year or so."
SteveA
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e in our map, as I know of no other
general-purpose map (that IS how many use OSM) which identifies these sorts of
"everyday" hazards. Think about it: a hazardous situation might find YOU one
day, and you might be very glad you saw this on a map beforehand so you could
avoid it.
St
kes effect (now and going
forward), please leave alone the tags UNIT_ID (useful as a unique identifier)
and ACRES (which acts as a checksum of data between CPAD versions without
tedious visual inspection, as this has poor fault-tolerance due to human
eyeballs only seeing larger changes).
Than
rustrates that kind
of source data from yielding any helpful data to enter).
So, I'm at least one person who DOES say that OSM isn't a fake map, and those
are only some of the reasons why. There are plenty of other reasons and plenty
of other people who agree with me.
SteveA
California
n we reduce "it's still gonna take a few decades to complete TIGER Review?"
We can!
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y do this), the need for our
documented short_name value simply goes away.
SteveA
> On Dec 27, 2019, at 7:21 PM, Joseph Eisenberg
> wrote:
>
> It's not necessary to add an alternative like "Josephine" if the name=
> is already "Josephine County" because ge
eat.
Chip, chip, chipping away at it (are all of us),
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"
"Do our best." If there is contention, discuss it. If there is
misunderstanding or disagreement, discuss it. If there is agreement, document
it and use it in the map and even write code that depends on it. We get there,
we will better get there as we contin
ontent to look ahead to OSM's second,
third, fourth and fifth decades as "better gets YET BETTER." Sharpen focus,
sharpen focus, sharpen focus.
SteveA
> On Dec 26, 2019, at 9:33 AM, Greg Troxel wrote:
>
> stevea writes:
>
>> Also, I find that &q
o get to
Alpine"). Greg (M.) seems to indicate this happens in (Pima) Arizona, as well.
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is a
> subset of a forest both geographically and administratively.
Exactly right, Tod (and Joseph, yes, as you say, MMW should be included in
Klamath NF, imho).
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ember their exact rules.
If we haven't the good tools (in the same form), I'm hoping at least we can
rebuild them from pieces!
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gt; You can also add delete template
> to request deletion:
>
> {{Delete|reason for deletion}}
I appreciate that, Mateusz. And Minh Nguyễn has done essentially that. Thanks
again, everybody.
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R reviewer / visualizer, though I can get some things
done with OT.
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mpasses / supersedes it).
Is there a way for me to delete a wiki page (without special wiki privileges,
which I have not) or a place / method to "mark" a wiki page for deletion?
Thank you in advance for any answers / action,
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T
sy to miss, simply fix as you see them, please.
SteveA
> On Dec 22, 2019, at 6:00 PM, 80hnhtv4agou--- via talk
> wrote:
> coming across bad mapping, if you draw a water feature ditch, or stream, from
> the bottom of the map
> up, you get arrows showing the flow going the wron
t
a lot of people naturally gravitate to a "non code issue" as GitHub as their
first go-to, the contradictory nature of that seems clear to me and many.
The wiki, maybe yes, maybe no, (there is wiki, there are others) but yes should
neither surprise nor annoy, nor does it.
SteveA
> On Dec 22
things out of
things, with other people building things, too, meet-ya-in-the-wiki.
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ty ambitious, though
it is a worthy project, imo.
Bonus points for your best guess at when OSM will eventually complete a full
TIGER data review. I'll start: at the rate we're going now, 2045?
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le I don't wish to diminish the light-hearted, holiday-spirited suggestion
Pierre makes, I can't help but feel it detracts from the seriousness of the
concerns expressed by Nuno. I don't think that was Pierre's intent, but it
could be easy to misinterpret his comments that way.
SteveA
differing definitions for differing countries and see how we
define it relatively. Look at our wiki's text and see how we define it
absolutely. Both.
Can we (as humans) and routers (as software) learn to live with this apparent
dichotomy? I can. I believe the rest of us (humans and routers a
ously. Saying "even if gravel
around here, still trunk" and tell the people who are shocked (absolutely
shocked) at this to close their mouths and expand their minds. Expand the
definition of trunk to be accommodating, that is (it is).
SteveA
California
I don't know. I've expressed my opinion(s) on the matter, and believe the LWG
should chime in with "an" (the?) answer.
SteveA
California
> On Nov 14, 2019, at 3:27 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
> wrote:
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 15. Nov 2019, at 00:19, stevea wro
for the Legal Working Group, however, I do hope
they are inspired by the strong feelings and opinions of OSM volunteers about
our data / works.
SteveA
California
> On Nov 14, 2019, at 3:09 PM, Yuri Astrakhan wrote:
>
> stevea, I would not be exactly the same person without OSM. Does
artly derived from OSM data.
This doesn't seem that difficult to do on a verbal level, though again, I'm not
sure of how it holds up legally.
SteveA
California
> On Nov 14, 2019, at 2:45 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
> wrote:
> I guess the law often doesn’t work like common sense. ODbL s
agree with common sense that those work are derived from OSM, even if they do
not contain OSM data in them. They contain data "helped" by OSM data, so they
are derived (I would argue).
SteveA
California
> On Nov 14, 2019, at 2:19 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
> wrote:
>
> I w
Nicely answered, I appreciate that!
SteveA
> On Nov 8, 2019, at 4:02 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
> wrote:
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 9. Nov 2019, at 00:48, stevea wrote:
>>
>> I wouldn't say "all" addresses, as Facebook isn't "all
I wouldn't say "all" addresses, as Facebook isn't "all" of us. Also, it's an
ambition, a gleam in a collective eye, a vision, something ahead in the future
as a goal. There will be, rightly, many paths to get there, rather than a
single one. This is true of any major
s être vrais", aussi bien
que les balises de OSM peuvent en tenir compte. Plusieurs balises OSM
orientées cycle peuvent, devraient et doivent coexister.
(S'il te plaît, pardonne à mon écolier français, je fais de mon mieux).
SteveA
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De plus, je recommande que la balise cycle_network soit utilisée pour
identifier le réseau particulier dont la route fait partie.
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t;Route de vélo"
(mais pas de numéro ni de réseau), soit constituent un puits sans équivoque
itinéraire cyclable connu (généralement local).
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map." See, that right there is a lot to chew on! There are likely
multiple ways forward, really.
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de) and as the data are freely available on the
'net, can be downloaded and compared to what is in OSM almost as easy as it is
for me to type the words it takes to describe that process? While I welcome
other volunteers in our project verifying data, I question when people call
mappi
As I mentioned yesterday, I changed Case #3 from leisure=park to
leisure=nature_reserve. Your text describes it as being tagged leisure=park,
which is no longer correct.
Steve
> On Oct 2, 2019, at 4:00 AM, talk-us-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:
>
>
And several years later, here we are. I'm glad to see such a "new arrival" at
a place where good data can meet a good crowdsourced mapping database, and
furthermore, I wish the project all good luck.
SteveA
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up ourselves, developing it similar to how commercial companies do
so. There's a lot of experience in OSM of "open projects," including open data
projects, let's leverage that knowledge. But ours should be "all OSM, built
right here in OSM." We already do that to a large
attribution." Do I miss something?
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political administration (admin_level).
SteveA
> On Sep 6, 2019, at 11:59 PM, Joseph Eisenberg
> wrote:
>
> ZIP Codes (US Postal Service codes) are not administrative boundaries.
> They are widely used for addressing, for routing and for deliveries by
> private compa
i, admin_level=6 for Oahu, admin_level=7 for District 1, admin_level=8 for
Honolulu, admin_level=10 (or 9) for 'Ewa Beach.
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certainly a UNIQUE part of the USA, it is, most
agree, that (at least today, and that's how we map).
I invite further discussion, either on- or off-list.
Aloha, SteveA
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when this is made quite clear, it MIGHT be helpful to be
PREscriptive, though let's be careful how we "prescribe" how "this is how it
ought to be."
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Such portals are ours (OSM's) to manage as we see fit. "After two years of
discussions" sounds like consensus. Defining something as "rarely useful"
(then agreeing upon that) seems a helpful approach. Looks like a good call
hich keeps traffic
flowing. Bikes are welcome on some, yes.
Actually, bike networks in Silicon Valley are an interesting construction
project, both in the real world and OSM.
Tagging is tagging and discussion about tagging is discussion. Thanks for good
discussio
eph's later post leans towards) we are, in a
sense, trying to reach sane consensus by having these discussions. This is
made somewhat more difficult (especially for old-time mappers like me who have
been around for most of the project's history) by tagging evolving. For
exampl
enues...it seems like a good fit to build a kernel of effort to
"get this right." May we see better 66 tagging going forward!
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Thank you for introducing the topic, John. May it
continue and blossom.
SteveA
> On Aug 17, 2019, at 8:19 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On the SMS front, it is not a question of an app but the receiving
> organisation
>
> Internationally 112 is the single num
OSM to standardize a 'plain
vanilla' version of this" (and maybe OSM has something to do with a sort of
"generic, install on your phone as a good idea," maybe not) here.
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John's on the path here: let's eliminate a potential cut-and-paste (or
remember "too many digits" step). If there isn't an app (Android, iOS...) for
"tap this button to ask the GPS to put my lat-lon into a (decimal) text string
and prompt me for the phone # of an SMS that sends it (with my
ruly
parallel a large effort to get substantial data into OSM over a medium- or
longer-term time frame (weeks, months, even years, as some projects like
high-speed rail can even take decades), there ARE circumstances where
state=proposed or unsigned_ref can facilitate good route data entry into OSM.
Thank you f
his thread, I directly apologize to Dristie for my
error. I regret my error.
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it helps, it appears that DrishT engages relatively quickly (as a
"somewhat representative member of the Facebook community working on this AI
project"). If you feel as if you are not heard (or "less than heard"), I
recently had a quick reply there ( https://www.osm.org/user/DrishT
that is much, much more open (like talk here) — truer to the spirit of OSM.
Thanks for your reply, thanks in advance for any clarification you might
further add,
SteveA
> On Aug 5, 2019, at 8:40 PM, Michal Migurski wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I appreciate the invitation, but this is a compl
er
that might be in the guise of an OSM volunteer who subscribes here) could
politely answer this phone call, even quite well.
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I misquoted Mikel Maron by saying he called Facebook's example of this AI
technology in OSM "a balance between turbocharged and exploitation." In fact,
he has told me he dislikes both terms immensely in this discussion.
I regret my error and apologize to Mike
M is, and will always be, a human-participating project, with all
of the social and "get outdoors and map" project as one (human) might like it
to be. AI can and does help, that's fine, as long as humans are always "in
charge."
Again, it sounds like there is a l
doing so.
It sounds like we largely agree. Provided we keep quality at the top of our
consciousness as we do so, whether we use AI or not.
I appreciate the opportunity to share dialog,
SteveA
> On Jul 31, 2019, at 11:48 AM, Kathleen Lu wrote:
>
> I agree that human wisdom is critical
Oops, "social conscience." (not conscious)
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amatically: do we really want to hasten "the robots are
taking over" by taking the throttle off, by ignoring or diminishing the
importance of quality and its discernment by humans? Of course not.
SteveA
> On Jul 31, 2019, at 6:27 AM, Florian Lohoff wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jul 2
Thanks, Kerry. Research continues on my part. Maybe additional/better data
get entered into OSM as network=rcn or network=icn route=bicycle relations,
though I myself am taking a "go slow, get to be more 'in the know'" approach.
Keeping my eyes open and in listening mod
themselves, though I continue to seek out such a contact person /
GIS "department" or organization. Kerry, do you know anything along these
lines?
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; we'll get at
least something. It might be weak sauce, it might have a heavy public
relations spin on it (initially) but we've got to get the ball rolling by
bringing such conversations out into the open. Thank you for your suggestions
to facilitate this.
SteveA
> On Jul 26, 2019,
ality of our data. Should we ever give up on
insisting that our data be as top-quality as humanly (heh) possible, we will
lose all that is good about OSM.
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be good; thanks if OSM makes
this connection.
In short, we're OK with Lake Michigan Circle Tour, what about all of the Great
Lakes?
These seem somewhere around or between rcn (where now) and quasi-national ncn
(maybe 4 become international?) That's maybe another topic for another thread.
SteveA
I would like to publicly, sincerely thank Martijn for saying that here.
SteveA
> On Jul 25, 2019, at 7:26 AM, Martijn van Exel wrote:
>
> I did. After Drishtie Patel announced a preview of this project[1] I gave it
> a go and shared my observations with them.
> Martijn
Sure, James. I'm simply calling this as I see it here, in context, with an
appropriate audience.
SteveA
> On Jul 24, 2019, at 3:02 PM, James wrote:
>
> News outlet sensationalizes story to attract views to its website.I can't
> think of one example of this ever happening in
eminded us "you can't fool all of the
people all of the time."
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