On 29 July 2011 14:22, Stephen Hope wrote:
> On 28 July 2011 21:52, Brian Quinion
> wrote:
>>
>> Now that said I don't really care which tag is used for the 'full'
>> name. I'd personally prefer the name tag was used for this because it
>> has always been the policy of OSM that the name tag inc
On 28 July 2011 21:52, Brian Quinion wrote:
>
> Now that said I don't really care which tag is used for the 'full'
> name. I'd personally prefer the name tag was used for this because it
> has always been the policy of OSM that the name tag includes the full
> unabbreviated name. Really - this h
Steve Doerr wrote:
> I once heard of a radio presenter who read out a request from
> someone living in 'Bewry Street Edmunds'!
Eeeek.
/me goes off to add not_name=Loogabarooga
cheers
Richard
--
View this message in context:
http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/shortened-names-tp6556816p6630080.h
On 28/07/2011 13:53, Brian Quinion wrote:
Ask any English speaker in the UK what the 'st' in "Bury St Edmunds"
means and they will tell you it is an abbreviation for Saint.
I once heard of a radio presenter who read out a request from someone
living in 'Bewry Street Edmunds'!
--
Steve
> I think the main issue now is whether St at the beginning of English
> place names is an abbreviation for Saint, or actually part of the
> place name as "St", and whether the same rule applies to street
> names. And not just at the beginning, thinking about it. I don't
> think I'd ever write "Bur
Brian wrote:
> Speaking as someone who has to use this data can I make a plea for
> unabbreviated names to always be used.
This should currently be the case, as is documented on the Key:name
wiki page.
I think the main issue now is whether St at the beginning of English
place names is an abbrev
On 27 July 2011 23:10, Richard Mann wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 10:44 PM, Kay Drangmeister
> wrote:
>> That, to me, is a convincing argument to tag the unabbreviated form
>> and let software (easily) do the abbreviation, instead of tagging
>> the abbreviation and have software do the (next
On 27/07/2011 23:45, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote:
Signs are indices, but they contain errors and bugs like everything else.
and abbreviations, especially in the US.
--
Steve
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On 28 July 2011 12:06, Joseph Reeves wrote:
> name: Magdalen Road
> pronounced: More-da-lin Road
>
> ?
>
> That's ridiculous if you ask me. If you're making sat nav software for a
> market (the UK, France, America, etc.) you should be able to work out these
> things yourself.
why?
in that instan
It's all about the placement:
St Albans pronounced "Saint Albans"
Albans St pronounced "Albans Street"
Look at this road: http://osm.org/go/eutDvk@QV-
Should we tag it:
name: Magdalen Road
pronounced: More-da-lin Road
?
That's ridiculous if you ask me. If you're making sat nav software for a
On 28 July 2011 10:45, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 2011/7/28 Richard Mann :
>> "name" is what is on (the majority of) the signs
>
>
> name is the name. Or what would be the name if the sign-majority was
> defined and there were 2 differing signs? nil? Or if there was 1 sign
> and that was spellt
On Wednesday, July 27, 2011 3:04:13 PM UTC-5, Joseph Reeves wrote:
>
> But that's just tagging for the renderer (or reader). If my sat nav can't
> pronounce st as "saint" I'd blame the software, not the data.
>
Should the satnav pronounce "st." as "saint" or "street"?
_
2011/7/28 Richard Mann :
> "name" is what is on (the majority of) the signs
name is the name. Or what would be the name if the sign-majority was
defined and there were 2 differing signs? nil? Or if there was 1 sign
and that was spellt wrong? Signs are indices, but they contain errors
and bugs lik
On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 10:44 PM, Kay Drangmeister
wrote:
> Am 27.07.2011 19:22, schrieb M∡rtin Koppenhoefer:
>>>
>>> Am 27.07.2011, 12:01 Uhr, schrieb Richard
>>> Fairhurst:
every native English speaker would
pronunce St in that context as 'saint'. That, to me, is a pretty
co
Am 27.07.2011 19:22, schrieb M∡rtin Koppenhoefer:
Am 27.07.2011, 12:01 Uhr, schrieb Richard Fairhurst:
every native English speaker would
pronunce St in that context as 'saint'. That, to me, is a pretty
conclusive
argument that we should tag "St".
In Italian "S." can mean "San", "Sant'" and "
Hi,
Joseph Reeves wrote:
But that's just tagging for the renderer (or reader). If my sat nav
can't pronounce st as "saint" I'd blame the software, not the data.
Yup... nothing against a special tag for a pronounciation hint though.
Phonetic alphabet, anyone?
Bye
Frederik
--
Frederik Ramm
But that's just tagging for the renderer (or reader). If my sat nav can't
pronounce st as "saint" I'd blame the software, not the data.
On 27 Jul 2011 20:38, "Steve Doerr" wrote:
> On 27/07/2011 18:23, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>> ...but the point is that here the name seems to be "St Albans" so
On 27/07/2011 18:23, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote:
...but the point is that here the name seems to be "St Albans" so why
should we be the only ones to expand it?
So that satnavs can more easily work out how to pronounce it?
--
Steve
___
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...but the point is that here the name seems to be "St Albans" so why
should we be the only ones to expand it?
cheers,
Martin
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talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
2011/7/27 Kay Drangmeister :
> Am 27.07.2011, 12:01 Uhr, schrieb Richard Fairhurst :
>>
>> every native English speaker would
>> pronunce St in that context as 'saint'. That, to me, is a pretty
>> conclusive
>> argument that we should tag "St".
>
> Alas, and in German "St" abbreviates "Sankt" (whic
On 27/07/2011 14:38, John F. Eldredge wrote:
That is the reason I feel that it would be best to store the
fully-spelled-out name, and then apply localized rules to look up any
abbreviations needed at rendering time. Using the full form to
determine the abbreviation is much less ambiguous than t
andrzej zaborowski wrote:
> On 27 July 2011 12:01, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> > Increasingly you can treat "St" as a valid spelling of the word
> "saint",
> > rather than merely an abbreviation. No (educated) native English
> speaker
> > would write a placename with 'Saint', and every native Eng
On Wed, 2011-07-27 at 13:51 +0100, Steve Doerr wrote:
> On 27/07/2011 11:01, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> > Pronunciation in English only ever serves to mislead.
> [...]
> > every native English speaker would pronunce St in that context as
> > 'saint'.
>
> Actually, St and saint are pronounced rath
On 27/07/2011 11:01, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
Pronunciation in English only ever serves to mislead.
[...]
every native English speaker would pronunce St in that context as 'saint'.
Actually, /St/ and /saint/ are pronounced rather differently (*sn?t* and
*se?nt*, respectively).
--
Steve
___
It probably doesn't affect the argument, but 'The Place-names of
Hertfordshire' (English Place-name Society, 1938) records the following
historical forms:
(aet) Sancte Albane (957)
Sancte Albanes stow (1007)
la ville de Seint Alban (Norman-French)
villa Sancti Albani (Domesday Book - in Latin)
On 27 July 2011 12:01, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> Increasingly you can treat "St" as a valid spelling of the word "saint",
> rather than merely an abbreviation. No (educated) native English speaker
> would write a placename with 'Saint', and every native English speaker would
> pronunce St in that
On 27 July 2011 22:00, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> John Smith wrote:
>> The period after St. is the correct way in English to abbreviate
>> Saint, where as the abbreviation of street doesn't have a period.
>
> Not in British English, it isn't.
>
> "_Saint._ St or S. is better than St. for the abbre
John Smith wrote:
> The period after St. is the correct way in English to abbreviate
> Saint, where as the abbreviation of street doesn't have a period.
Not in British English, it isn't.
"_Saint._ St or S. is better than St. for the abbreviation (see PERIOD IN
ABBR.); Pl. Sts or SS."
That's from
On 27 July 2011 21:48, David Earl wrote:
> "Commonly abbreviated S. or St. ... Abbreviations: S. and St., pl. SS. and
> Sts. Since the 18th c. ‘St.’ is the form usually employed; but since about
> 1830 ‘S.’ has been favoured by ecclesiologists. In place-names, and in
> family names derived from th
On 27 July 2011 21:21, Paul Jaggard wrote:
>> From: John Smith
>> The period after St. is the correct way in English to abbreviate
>> Saint, where as the abbreviation of street doesn't have a period.
>
> Exactly the opposite according to my (Collins) dictionary:
>
> st abbrev. for short ton.
> St
On 27/07/2011 12:21, Paul Jaggard wrote:
From: John Smith
The period after St. is the correct way in English to abbreviate
Saint, where as the abbreviation of street doesn't have a period.
Exactly the opposite according to my (Collins) dictionary:
st abbrev. for short ton.
St abbrev. for Saint
Robin Paulson wrote:
ha, there's a road near me labelled on sign posts as:
Grt Sth Rd
which must be so easy to interpret for all the none-native english speakers
Would "Grout Something Rapid" count as an educated guess?
Let's face it: its the authorities' idea of 1337-Speak...
Kay
__
> From: John Smith
> The period after St. is the correct way in English to abbreviate
> Saint, where as the abbreviation of street doesn't have a period.
Exactly the opposite according to my (Collins) dictionary:
st abbrev. for short ton.
St abbrev. for Saint.
st. abbrev. for stanza, statute, (c
Am 27.07.2011, 12:01 Uhr, schrieb Richard Fairhurst :
every native English speaker would
pronunce St in that context as 'saint'. That, to me, is a pretty conclusive
argument that we should tag "St".
Alas, and in German "St" abbreviates "Sankt" (which also means by chance Saint).
So you can conc
On 27/07/2011 11:58, John Smith wrote:
On 27 July 2011 20:50, David Earl wrote:
While St Albans isn't big enough to feature in the list in this document, it
does have "St. Helens" (sic). Why the period? The district council's website
The period after St. is the correct way in English to abbre
On 27 July 2011 20:50, David Earl wrote:
> While St Albans isn't big enough to feature in the list in this document, it
> does have "St. Helens" (sic). Why the period? The district council's website
The period after St. is the correct way in English to abbreviate
Saint, where as the abbreviation
In just doing some web searching, I came across this UK Government
document...
http://www.pcgn.org.uk/UK%20Toponymic%20Guidelines.pdf
which has lots of references to OS lists of standards and conventions.
While St Albans isn't big enough to feature in the list in this
document, it does have "
John Smith wrote:
> The person that started this thread is in New Zealand...
...and started it with the comment "does anyone here know what st albans
in uk is actually called then?". Robin has also mapped parts of Britain -
such as Repton, not far from where I'm sitting now.
Richard
_
On 27/07/2011 10:23, Thomas Davie wrote:
I don't think how they're sorted has anything to do with it, if every
time the place name is written, it's written "St Albans", even in
official documentation of what the town is called, it's name is "St
Albans", simple as that.
+1.
And the same applies
On 27 July 2011 20:01, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> (I'm only talking about the UK, of course, and in fact this discussion would
> be better on talk-gb.)
The person that started this thread is in New Zealand...
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andrzej zaborowski wrote:
> I'd say the opposite is true. If it's pronounced "Saint Albans"
> then that is the name.
Pronunciation in English only ever serves to mislead. :)
Increasingly you can treat "St" as a valid spelling of the word "saint",
rather than merely an abbreviation. No (educated
On 27 July 2011 12:40, Ed Loach wrote:
> like S St N on Google where they've abbreviated South Street North,
> for example, which just looks silly). This seems to agree with
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name#Notes
ha, there's a road near me labelled on sign posts as:
Grt Sth Rd
which
On 27 Jul 2011, at 10:15, Steve Doerr wrote:
> On 27/07/2011 03:04, Stephen Hope wrote:
>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name#Notes
>>
>> Um - no. If a place wants to be written "St Albans", then that's the
>> name. Just because you pronounce it "Saint Albans" makes no
>> difference
On 27/07/2011 03:04, Stephen Hope wrote:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name#Notes
Um - no. If a place wants to be written "St Albans", then that's the
name. Just because you pronounce it "Saint Albans" makes no
difference.
If they'd just shortened it for some signs to save space (lik
If we are using pronunciations as a guide shall I go and rename "Southwell"
as "Suval" and Leicester as "Lesta"?
On Wednesday, 27 July 2011, andrzej zaborowski wrote:
> On 27 July 2011 04:04, Stephen Hope wrote:
>> On 27 July 2011 10:40, Ed Loach wrote:
>>> Yes, it is called Saint Albans, writt
On 27 July 2011 04:04, Stephen Hope wrote:
> On 27 July 2011 10:40, Ed Loach wrote:
>> Yes, it is called Saint Albans, written St Albans, except where some
>> websites seem to have expanded it.
>>
>> e.g.
>> http://www.meteoprog.co.uk/en/weather/SaintAlbans/
>> http://www.gomapper.com/travel/map-
On 27 July 2011 10:40, Ed Loach wrote:
> Yes, it is called Saint Albans, written St Albans, except where some
> websites seem to have expanded it.
>
> e.g.
> http://www.meteoprog.co.uk/en/weather/SaintAlbans/
> http://www.gomapper.com/travel/map-of/saint-albans.html
> etc...
> http://www.lmgtfy.co
Ed Loach wrote:
> > > i've been told it's st albans, not saint albans as i 'corrected'
> it to
> >
> > I think it is actually written "St Albans" as stated above.
>
> Yes, it is called Saint Albans, written St Albans, except where some
> websites seem to have expanded it.
>
> e.g.
> http://ww
> > i've been told it's st albans, not saint albans as i 'corrected'
it to
>
> I think it is actually written "St Albans" as stated above.
Yes, it is called Saint Albans, written St Albans, except where some
websites seem to have expanded it.
e.g.
http://www.meteoprog.co.uk/en/weather/SaintAlba
On Fri, Jul 08, 2011 at 08:05:47PM +0200, colliar wrote:
> Am 08.07.2011 05:49, schrieb John Harvey:
> > I find there are a lot more abbreviations if you look at addr:street=
> > rather than the name= . I suspect that with mobile entry of POI's we
> > are going to see more and more abbreviations b
Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> Frederik Ramm wrote:
> > Oh, that's relatively benign. There are people with that name who
> > would try to grab attention with "ℳ∡ℝℸⅈℿ" or something.
>
> Oh, we really should produce a map which renders the name High Street
> as
> H16H 5tr33t, etc.
>
> It could be c
Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Oh, that's relatively benign. There are people with that name who
> would try to grab attention with "ℳ∡ℝℸⅈℿ" or something.
Oh, we really should produce a map which renders the name High Street as
H16H 5tr33t, etc.
It could be called Open1337Map.
cheers
Richard
--
View
So it's an "a" is it - google mail on Android shows a square!
On 26 Jul 2011 15:54, "Richard Fairhurst" wrote:
Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> I think it is actually written "St Albans" as stated above.
Indeed. In British English orthography, "Saint" in place and streetnames is
always written as "S
Richard,
Mind you, British English orthography is also that Martin has an "a" in it,
not a "∡". ;)
Oh, that's relatively benign. There are people with that name who would
try to grab attention with "ℳ∡ℝℸⅈℿ" or something.
Bye
Frederik
--
Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49
2011/7/26 Richard Fairhurst :
> Mind you, British English orthography is also that Martin has an "a" in it,
> not a "∡". ;)
Hello Rich∡rd,
orthography doesn't apply to names, but Martin as my name is, has
indeed no ∡ in it. I just put it there on a whim. Interestingly humans
don't have a problem
Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> I think it is actually written "St Albans" as stated above.
Indeed. In British English orthography, "Saint" in place and streetnames is
always written as "St". (It's not such an anomaly: "Mrs" as an honorific is
never expanded, either.)
Mind you, British English ortho
2011/7/26 Robin Paulson :
> does anyone here know what st albans in uk is actually called then?
>
> i've been told it's st albans, not saint albans as i 'corrected' it to
I think it is actually written "St Albans" as stated above.
cheers,
Martin
___
t
On 11 July 2011 13:32, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 2011/7/7 Jochen Topf :
>> On Thu, Jul 07, 2011 at 03:35:07PM +1200, Robin Paulson wrote:
>>> is there any consensus on shortening of parts of names?...
>>> i was under the impression consensus was to type the full word, then
>>> renderers would s
2011/7/7 Jochen Topf :
> On Thu, Jul 07, 2011 at 03:35:07PM +1200, Robin Paulson wrote:
>> is there any consensus on shortening of parts of names?...
>> i was under the impression consensus was to type the full word, then
>> renderers would shorten where necessary? apparently some mappers
>> disagr
I made this same remark and somebody changed the wiki:
street one or more The associated street (more than one way possible if they
are the same street, just have been split for mapping reasons)
Now all that is needed is that JOSM's validation rules stop complaing about
more than one street role i
Am 08.07.2011 05:49, schrieb John Harvey:
> I find there are a lot more abbreviations if you look at addr:street=
> rather than the name= . I suspect that with mobile entry of POI's we
> are going to see more and more abbreviations being entered, just because
> mobile keyboards are slow. I would
On 08/07/2011 09:28, Richard Mann wrote:
I tend to abbreviate Saint (to St), because the full version is almost
never used, and certainly never spoken by anybody locally (they say
something closer to "Sunt", which they wouldn't say if confronted with
the unabbreviated version).
Whereas Road / Av
I tend to abbreviate Saint (to St), because the full version is almost
never used, and certainly never spoken by anybody locally (they say
something closer to "Sunt", which they wouldn't say if confronted with
the unabbreviated version).
Whereas Road / Avenue / Street get written out in full, beca
On 8 July 2011 13:59, andrzej zaborowski wrote:
> On 7 July 2011 19:50, John Smith wrote:
>> On 7 July 2011 23:33, andrzej zaborowski wrote:
In some cases, the official name is with the abbreviation, eg St.
George Bank in Australia and there is a town named St. George.
>>>
>>> Still yo
On 7 July 2011 19:50, John Smith wrote:
> On 7 July 2011 23:33, andrzej zaborowski wrote:
>>> In some cases, the official name is with the abbreviation, eg St.
>>> George Bank in Australia and there is a town named St. George.
>>
>> Still you say Saint George, not S.T. George.
>
> Well you can ri
I find there are a lot more abbreviations if you look at addr:street=
rather than the name= . I suspect that with mobile entry of POI's we
are going to see more and more abbreviations being entered, just because
mobile keyboards are slow. I would applaud a bot that asked me if I
meant the nea
On 7 July 2011 23:33, andrzej zaborowski wrote:
>> In some cases, the official name is with the abbreviation, eg St.
>> George Bank in Australia and there is a town named St. George.
>
> Still you say Saint George, not S.T. George.
Well you can ring up the bank/local government and tell them they
On 07/07/11 10:29, John Smith wrote:
> In some cases, the official name is with the abbreviation, eg St.
> George Bank in Australia and there is a town named St. George.
Yes. I found one just today actually. Ordnance Survey (national
mapping agency) record the name as "Upper St Giles Street". T
On 7 July 2011 11:29, John Smith wrote:
> On 7 July 2011 19:23, Pieren wrote:
>> On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 7:45 AM, Jochen Topf wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes, thats the consensus and has been for a long time. Some mappers always
>>> disagree, just ignore them. :-)
>>>
>>
>> +1
>>
>> And in software, it is alw
Occasionally some one may wish to add a translation or find the street
programmatically. For example using Maperitive and a local copy to search
for the street. Having the full name helps enormously. End users don't
like having to try high street, high St. etc until they find the right
combinati
On 7 July 2011 19:23, Pieren wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 7:45 AM, Jochen Topf wrote:
>>
>> Yes, thats the consensus and has been for a long time. Some mappers always
>> disagree, just ignore them. :-)
>>
>
> +1
>
> And in software, it is always easier to shorten a word than expanding an
> abb
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 7:45 AM, Jochen Topf wrote:
> Yes, thats the consensus and has been for a long time. Some mappers always
> disagree, just ignore them. :-)
>
>
+1
And in software, it is always easier to shorten a word than expanding an
abbreviation. 'st' is for 'Saint' or for 'Street' ?
P
On Thu, Jul 07, 2011 at 03:35:07PM +1200, Robin Paulson wrote:
> is there any consensus on shortening of parts of names?
> e.g.:
> street/st
> saint/st
> avenue/ave
> point/pt
> mount/mt
>
> i was under the impression consensus was to type the full word, then
> renderers would shorten where necess
On 07/06/2011 11:35 PM, Robin Paulson wrote:
> is there any consensus on shortening of parts of names?
> e.g.:
> street/st
> saint/st
> avenue/ave
> point/pt
> mount/mt
>
> i was under the impression consensus was to type the full word, then
> renderers would shorten where necessary? apparently so
is there any consensus on shortening of parts of names?
e.g.:
street/st
saint/st
avenue/ave
point/pt
mount/mt
i was under the impression consensus was to type the full word, then
renderers would shorten where necessary? apparently some mappers
disagree though
--
robin
http://bumblepuppy.org/blo
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