Hi All, As a guy that works with postal codes and carrier routing, Justin is right, like the US, in Canada, Post codes are really just a sub-collection of address codes that don't necessarily correspond with geographic areas. They can be plotted on a map if you know the addresses, but they aren't polygons like everyone thinks. It get really complex when you have ranges within ranges (ie a street range, then a couple of condos within that range) All I can say is keep pushing the gov't to open it up. It's a REAL pain to maintain! Keith
On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 10:54 AM <talk-ca-requ...@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > Send Talk-ca mailing list submissions to > talk-ca@openstreetmap.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > talk-ca-requ...@openstreetmap.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > talk-ca-ow...@openstreetmap.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Talk-ca digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Postcodes in Canada (Justin Tracey) > 2. Re: Postcodes in Canada (john whelan) > 3. Pertinence de lcn=yes pour le Québec (Alouette955) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 11:23:32 -0400 > From: Justin Tracey <j3tra...@gmail.com> > To: talk-ca@openstreetmap.org, Kevin Farrugia > <kevinfarru...@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Postcodes in Canada > Message-ID: <b4a44a04-d82e-71e4-3e80-b414afd71...@gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > In the US, ZIP Codes (the US postal code equivalent) are frequently > emphasized to not correspond to geographic locations, but sets of > addresses. Of course they frequently cluster according to geography (and > the prefixes are indeed assigned to states and regions within the > state), and are often used as stand-ins, but you can't make assumptions > about continuity or proximity for the addresses they correspond with. > Even though I can't find it explicitly worded that way (i.e., "post > codes are address sets, not locations"), it seems to be the same > situation here. Given that, the most "correct" thing to do would be > tagging postal codes in addresses, and not as distinct entities. > > The Canada Post website has a tool to lookup the postal code for a > particular address, so if it were released, wouldn't the data they use > to supply that information be good enough for this? It doesn't quite > solve people trying to navigate "to" a particular postal code, but it > seems like that's an ambiguous request anyway. > > - Justin > > On 2019-10-02 8:53 p.m., Kevin Farrugia wrote: > > I don't want to rain on the postal code party, and maybe I'm a little > > jaded from using the data, but I use the Postal Code Conversion File > > (PCCF) from Statistics Canada (who get it from Canada Post) at work. > > In general I would say that the postal code points are in mediocre shape. > > > > Some things I've noticed about the data and postal codes in general: > > * There is usually one postal code point per postal code, although > > there are cases where there can be several points for a postal code. > > For example, with some postal codes, if you were to make them > > polygons, would generate multiple polygons that are intersected by > > other postal codes. > > * Postal codes, especially rural ones, pop in and out of existence and > > so are a little harder to track and are less permanent than addresses. > > * Postal codes will sometimes jump from one side of a road (even > > municipality) between years as they try to improve accuracy. > > I would check out the Limitations section if you'd like to see > > more: > https://www.canadapost.ca/cpc/assets/cpc/uploads/files/marketing/2017-postal-code-conversion-file-reference-guide-en.pdf > > > > Forward Sortation Areas do exist as open data through Statistics > > Canada - StatsCan generates these FSA polygons based on respondents of > > the Census. There are two limitations to this dataset on which I > > would advise against importing it into OSM: > > 1) Since businesses do not respond to the Census, they generally do > > not have FSAs for large industrial areas. These areas are covered by > > the nearest FSA that they know about/can define, but this can also > > cause some movements of boundaries from Census to Census. > > 2) Because postal codes are created for the purpose of mail sortation > > and delivery, the FSA boundaries StatsCan is able to create are not > exact. > > Here's the reference document if you're > > interested: > https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/92-179-g/92-179-g2016001-eng.htm > > > > If at some point they did release it as open data, it might be decent > > enough for the purposes of general geocoding in OSM, I just don't want > > people to think it's as well maintained and reliable as some other > > types of government data. > > > > -Kevin (Kevo) > > > > > > On Wed, 2 Oct 2019 at 20:39, James <james2...@gmail.com > > <mailto:james2...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > funny you should mention geocoder.ca <http://geocoder.ca> > > > > The owner of that website was sued by Canada Post because he was > > crowd sourcing postal codes. Just recently (2 ish years ago?) they > > dropped the lawsuit because they knew they didnt have a case(He > > came to the Ottawa meetups a couple of times) > > > > On Wed., Oct. 2, 2019, 8:08 p.m. Jarek Piórkowski, > > <ja...@piorkowski.ca <mailto:ja...@piorkowski.ca>> wrote: > > > > Yeah, Canada Post currently considers postal codes their > > commercial > > data. Crowd-sourcing all or a substantial amount of full codes > > seems > > infeasible. Crowd-sourcing the forward sortation areas (the > > first A1A) > > seems difficult since verifiability is going to be a problem > > especially around the edges of the areas. > > > > The website OpenStreetMap.org returns results for some postal > > codes > > from a third-party database https://geocoder.ca/?terms=1 which > > is not > > ODbL-compatible either. > > > > Partial mapping is causing some problems with tools like > Nominatim > > that attach the nearest tagged postcode to search results, often > > resulting in improper postal codes for reverse address lookups, > > however that is arguably a tooling problem and not an OSM > > problem per > > se. > > > > This isn't going to be pretty until Canada Post is persuaded > > to free > > the data. Call your MP, everybody. > > > > --Jarek > > > > On Wed, 2 Oct 2019 at 17:38, john whelan > > <jwhelan0...@gmail.com <mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > > > " The number one request on open.canada.ca > > <http://open.canada.ca> is to open the postal code database. > > Feel free to add your vote. > > https://open.canada.ca/en/suggested-datasets"; > > > > > > Cheerio John > > > > > > On Wed, 2 Oct 2019 at 13:32, john whelan > > <jwhelan0...@gmail.com <mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > >> > > >> On the import mailing list there is a proposal to import > > postcodes in the UK one of the reasons given was that many > > like to input a postcode to get directions on smartphones > > using things like OSMand. > > >> > > >> I don't think an Open Data source with the correct > > licensing is available in Canada but OSMand appears to be able > > to use the postcode if it is entered in the map as part of the > > address. Is there any Open Data that might be useful? > > >> > > >> I don't know if it is possible but could something be used > > to extract postcodes in the current map and from there perhaps > > we could come up with a list of missing postcodes that need > > one address with it in mapped? > > >> > > >> As a minimum if you could add a few in you know from local > > knowledge that might help fill in some gaps. > > >> > > >> Thoughts > > >> > > >> Thanks John > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Talk-ca mailing list > > > Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org <mailto:Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org> > > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Talk-ca mailing list > > Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org <mailto:Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org> > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Talk-ca mailing list > > Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org <mailto:Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org> > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Talk-ca mailing list > > Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 11:54:44 -0400 > From: john whelan <jwhelan0...@gmail.com> > To: Justin Tracey <j3tra...@gmail.com> > Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap <talk-ca@openstreetmap.org>, Kevin Farrugia > <kevinfarru...@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Postcodes in Canada > Message-ID: > < > caj-ex1f+ubsdr5oq3ooy1o6umxyej5dwjcf4gov1kqdnra6...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Canadian Postal Codes in urban areas are blocks of roughly 50 buildings > which makes them extremely interesting to use for GIS studies. Average > income etc. > > Both in the UK and Canada many people would rather type in a 6 character > code than a street address with city when looking for directions to a > location. In the UK postcodes where restricted to a street which meant > when computer storage was expensive we used something called a prem code > which was the building number followed by the postcode and generated the > full address when required. Canadian postcodes can spam different streets > especially in areas served by supermail boxes. > > If I use the example of my own address. The house was built in the City > of Cumberland, but my postal address was Navan. Then Canada Post changed > the postal address to Orleans which is interesting as Orleans does not > exist as a municipality. Apparentyl there are one or two other places in > Canada that Canada Post doesn't use the municipality name in the postal > address. Currently it is in the City of Ottawa so some mail gets addressed > Orleans and some Ottawa. I had an elderly aunt who always addressed my > Christmas card to Navan and included the postcode until she died and each > year the post office would attach a sticker saying the postal address was > wrong. The post code remains the same over all the changes. > > So yes a postcode can change but from time to time they are more stable > than the official postal address. > > As long as one address contains the postcode then Nominatim will find it > which means it can be used for directions. You might be 30 buildings away > but you are in the right general area so I think adding them as part of a > street address is of value. > > Cheerio John > > > > On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 11:24, Justin Tracey <j3tra...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > In the US, ZIP Codes (the US postal code equivalent) are frequently > > emphasized to not correspond to geographic locations, but sets of > > addresses. Of course they frequently cluster according to geography (and > > the prefixes are indeed assigned to states and regions within the > > state), and are often used as stand-ins, but you can't make assumptions > > about continuity or proximity for the addresses they correspond with. > > Even though I can't find it explicitly worded that way (i.e., "post > > codes are address sets, not locations"), it seems to be the same > > situation here. Given that, the most "correct" thing to do would be > > tagging postal codes in addresses, and not as distinct entities. > > > > The Canada Post website has a tool to lookup the postal code for a > > particular address, so if it were released, wouldn't the data they use > > to supply that information be good enough for this? It doesn't quite > > solve people trying to navigate "to" a particular postal code, but it > > seems like that's an ambiguous request anyway. > > > > - Justin > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/attachments/20191003/6175e7e4/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 12:53:22 -0400 > From: "Alouette955" <alouette...@gmail.com> > To: "Talk-CA OpenStreetMap" <talk-ca@openstreetmap.org> > Subject: [Talk-ca] Pertinence de lcn=yes pour le Québec > Message-ID: <23E127B36E5B4153AC238E746E2817E5@ToshibaCL> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Bonjour, > > J’extrais et isole ici le sujet “lcn=yes” et vous remarquerez le > changement d’objet de la conversation. > > Le message original couvrant les autres sujets se trouve ici: > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2019-October/009443.html > > Afin de bien mesurer l’ampleur j’ai sorti ces données concernant > l’utilisation du lcn=yes dans les chemins (ways) et network=lcn dans les > relations pour le Québec. > > Je crois avoir bien circonscrit les données au Québec dans overpass-turbo. > Si quelqu’un veut vérifier ces chiffres pour corroborer ma démarche. > > J’ai trouvé: > a.. 8106 chemins avec l’attribut lcn=yes présumé non pertinent puisque > cet attribut serait réservé aux routes dans des relations. Ces attributs > dans les chemins devraient alors être systématiquement enlevés. Une > vérification régulière de la situation pourrait ensuite être faite pour > éviter qu’il ne réapparaisse de la part de contributeurs non informés. > > b.. 90 relations avec network=lcn. Il resterait à vérifier la pertinence > des ces 90 relations après avoir défini ce qui est une route lcn pour le > Québec puis, sur une certaine période, créer les relations qui > correspondraient aux routes absentes. > > Ceci touche le travail passé de dizaines sinon centaines de contributeurs > qui ont cartographié les pistes cyclables et déployé l’usage de lcn=yes. > > Comment les joindre pour avoir leur avis et implanter une nouvelle façon > de faire? > > Et comme le disait Pierre quels critères retenir pour définir ce qu’est > une route lcn surtout avec la diversité des façons de faire dans les > municipalités. > > En l’absence d’une structure provinciale pour avoir cette discussion > est-ce qu’une discussion à 3 est satisfaisante. > > Claude > > P.S. L’avis des autres contributeurs aux réseaux cyclables du Québec > présents sur cette liste serait apprécié. > > From: Pierre Béland > Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2019 4:09 PM > To: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap > Cc: Martin Chalifoux ; Alouette955 > Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Carte velo CyclOSM et Référence Route Verte > > > Le wiki résume la réflexion à un certain moment donné et il faut être > capable de le réviser si nécessaire. Tout comme pour le réseau routier, il > y a place à l'interprétation lorsque nous hiérarchisons un réseau. Il faut > lui donner du sens, et puis oui réduire le bruit avec tous les petits > segments très locaux. > > > 1- L’utilisation de lcn=yes > > > Je suis d'accord qu'il faut limiter l'utilisation des références réseau > lcn au niveau local. On ne devrait oui ne retenir que ce qui correspond a > l'ossature principale au niveau local. Mais quels critères retenir. Routes > connectées à ossature principale ? Avec nom ou no ?. > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/attachments/20191003/c16f673e/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Talk-ca mailing list > Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Talk-ca Digest, Vol 140, Issue 11 > **************************************** >
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