Re: [Talk-ca] Importing buildings in Canada

[Steve Singer]

On Sat, 28 Sep 2019, Nate Wessel wrote:



I for one would be happy to support a local effort to import high quality 
buildings in Toronto and/or the GTA. I
think if we can actually meet up face to face our discussions may remain a bit 
more civil and productive. Hopefully
consensus will be a bit easier to achieve with smaller groups too!

I see that the OSM Toronto meetup doesn't have any upcoming events... Would 
others in the GTA be interested in
planning a meet up to talk about a local import plan? Is anyone on the list in 
charge of organizing these?


I am one of the organizers of the OSM Toronto meetup.

I've now posted the regular monthly mappy hour meetup for the Toronto OSM 
group. I had been meaning to do this anyway.


I'm also happy to post a special event dedicated to discussing an import in 
the GTA if people are interested.







Best,

Nate Wessel, PhD
Planner, Cartographer, Transport Nerd
NateWessel.com

On 2019-09-28 1:03 p.m., Jarek Piórkowski wrote:

Hi all,

To be a bit more positive:

If we want to get buildings on the map, but we can't get Canada-wide
data improved by Statcan to a standard acceptable to all mappers in
Canada, IMO the best bet will be to split this into much smaller
batches and support local mappers who would be interested in getting
the data in.

In my browsing of neis-one.org statistics for Canadian mappers and the
Notes active in Canada, I've seen active mappers and small communities
in at least Halifax, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, and Victoria
metros, and I might have missed some more. Many of them I have never
seen on the mailing list (which is a whole another issue), but
contacting them directly (via osm.org messages?), asking if they are
aware of other local mappers, if they would be interested in having
building data, if it is of acceptable standard to them, and if they
would be willing to help validate-and-upload the data (with help of
the central tooling) might get some success.

I hope that will go better than the previous attempt which could be
read - uncharitably - as a bunch of mailing list insiders throwing
federal data over the fence with little consultation.

It'll be a lot of work communicating and organizing. But getting
buildings is a lot of work, and if data producers can't do better,
whoever wants the buildings will have to do the work. Maybe with more
local support even the imports list will be more bearable.

Thanks,
--Jarek

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Re: [Talk-ca] Importing buildings in Canada

[stevea]

And several years later, here we are.  I'm glad to see such a "new arrival" at 
a place where good data can meet a good crowdsourced mapping database, and 
furthermore, I wish the project all good luck.

SteveA
California

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Re: [Talk-ca] Importing buildings in Canada

[John Whelan]

My suggestion would be to amend and clean up the original import plan to 
split out the country into regions and have a regional coordinator for 
each region based on local input.  I'd also add in the two other data 
sources as alternative data sources.


The reason for this approach is an amended import plan might be more 
acceptable to the import mailing list than new plans and in our smaller 
regions there may not be the resources to put together a full import 
plan for a thousand buildings.


Cheerio John

Nate Wessel wrote on 2019-09-28 1:37 PM:


I for one would be happy to support a local effort to import high 
quality buildings in Toronto and/or the GTA. I think if we can 
actually meet up face to face our discussions may remain a bit more 
civil and productive. Hopefully consensus will be a bit easier to 
achieve with smaller groups too!


I see that the OSM Toronto meetup 
 doesn't have any 
upcoming events... Would others in the GTA be interested in planning a 
meet up to talk about a local import plan? Is anyone on the list in 
charge of organizing these?


Best,

Nate Wessel, PhD
Planner, Cartographer, Transport Nerd
NateWessel.com 

On 2019-09-28 1:03 p.m., Jarek Piórkowski wrote:

Hi all,

To be a bit more positive:

If we want to get buildings on the map, but we can't get Canada-wide
data improved by Statcan to a standard acceptable to all mappers in
Canada, IMO the best bet will be to split this into much smaller
batches and support local mappers who would be interested in getting
the data in.

In my browsing of neis-one.org statistics for Canadian mappers and the
Notes active in Canada, I've seen active mappers and small communities
in at least Halifax, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, and Victoria
metros, and I might have missed some more. Many of them I have never
seen on the mailing list (which is a whole another issue), but
contacting them directly (via osm.org messages?), asking if they are
aware of other local mappers, if they would be interested in having
building data, if it is of acceptable standard to them, and if they
would be willing to help validate-and-upload the data (with help of
the central tooling) might get some success.

I hope that will go better than the previous attempt which could be
read - uncharitably - as a bunch of mailing list insiders throwing
federal data over the fence with little consultation.

It'll be a lot of work communicating and organizing. But getting
buildings is a lot of work, and if data producers can't do better,
whoever wants the buildings will have to do the work. Maybe with more
local support even the imports list will be more bearable.

Thanks,
--Jarek

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--
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Re: [Talk-ca] Importing buildings in Canada

[John Whelan]

And I totally agree.  Because the Stat Can data has come from many 
sources the data quality is variable to put it politely.  The Microsoft 
data has been shown in the US to also be of variable quality.  I'm not 
so sure about the NR Can LiDAR data hopefully it is at least consistent.


If we look at the history of the project then we can get an idea of how 
we came to be where we are.


First I wanted to import all the bus stops in Ottawa because only by 
importing could you ensure you had all the stops with their reference 
numbers but the City of Ottawa Open Data license did not align with 
OSM.  I was also talking to Treasury Board and explained to them that 
their Open Data license version 1 didn't align with OSM so we couldn't 
use their data.  Five years later TB released their Open Data license 
version 2 which they felt did align.


Stat Can has two types of project, pilot ones and ones that earn money. 
The original pilot was based on Ottawa and Gatineau and was for two 
years.  Their original plan was mapathons using iD.  I was impressed 
when a stat can employee managed to accurately map a building using iD 
during a presentation.  I hadn't thought it was possible after some of 
the efforts I'd seen in HOT mapping.   Fine except that it requires a 
lot of mappers and I think Fredrick has commented this sort of mapping 
with new mappers needs a lot of clean up effort sometimes more than 
required for an experienced mapper to map it right in the first place. 
Montreal has identified there just aren't enough experienced mappers 
available.


I worked at Stats Canada for a number of years.  The corporate culture 
is very different to OSM.  It makes its money by selling data.  Want to 
open a new coffee bar? Stats Canada will combine its data to sell you 
the ideal spot based on residents' income etc..  I had a meeting with 
Stats Canada, City of Ottawa planning department, an Open Data 
specialist from Carlton University, someone from Metrolink who had added 
data to openstreetmap to help people find the nearest bus stop and a 
couple of HOT board members.   We convinced Stats Canada to change the 
direction of the pilot to use Open Data rather than go the mapathon 
route partly for data quality reasons and partly because I didn't think 
we could find the mappers to map the buildings completely.  The Stat Can 
involvement meant the City of Ottawa was persuaded to change its Open 
Data license to the same as the TB one.  That took time and had to go to 
council for approval.  There was a lot of discussion with the local 
community and it was they who organised and did the import.   The local 
group worked nicely together and had a range of skill sets in the 
group.  I actually played more of a connecting role than anything else.


The import was challenged on the data license amongst other things but 
eventually the OSM legal working group was very kind and ruled the 
license was acceptable.  Stats is very interested in added detail to 
buildings.  I was very interested that we could now import the bus stops.


I think you picked up on the fact that the buildings mapped in a 
mapathon were less than ideal.  I was involved in one in Ottawa and just 
taught the new mappers to use JOSM and the building_tool.  That produced 
more buildings per mapper hour and they were fairly accurate.  I must 
confess not every attached garage was mapped in detail.


I seem to recall Mapbox being involved in the Maperthons in some way.

The Stats Can involvement meant we saw some interest from schools.  What 
I was interested in was added detail so mapped a couple of thousand 
buildings in Ontario using JONM and the building_tool so details could 
be added easily.  We got two addresses added.  Apparently in Ontario the 
provincial government has purchased ESRI for school children to learn 
about GIS.


At the end of the pilot the money had run out.  Stats covered some of 
the costs involved in the HOT summit that was held in Ottawa and during 
that summit phase two was launched but without any real funding.


What Stats could do though was release data from the municipalities 
under the government Open Data license and that is what they did.  As 
Jarek has pointed out following the import process is stressful so I 
volunteered to do the paperwork and submit the plan.  There was some 
discussion on talk ca and the idea surfaced to go with one plan rather 
than divide the country up.  So that's what I did.


Today we have three sources of data that could be imported, and I 
suspect the two that are not municipal data are more consistent.  We 
still have the original plan of mapathons with iD floating around.


My person view is the imported data quality is better than the mapathon 
approach but to go forward from here I think it needs to be re-planned 
and a new import plan(s) drawn up.


I don't think Stats have any real funding available at the moment.  They 
may find an odd hour in a quiet time but its coming up to 

Re: [Talk-ca] Importing buildings in Canada

[Nate Wessel]

I for one would be happy to support a local effort to import high 
quality buildings in Toronto and/or the GTA. I think if we can actually 
meet up face to face our discussions may remain a bit more civil and 
productive. Hopefully consensus will be a bit easier to achieve with 
smaller groups too!


I see that the OSM Toronto meetup 
 doesn't have any 
upcoming events... Would others in the GTA be interested in planning a 
meet up to talk about a local import plan? Is anyone on the list in 
charge of organizing these?


Best,

Nate Wessel, PhD
Planner, Cartographer, Transport Nerd
NateWessel.com 

On 2019-09-28 1:03 p.m., Jarek Piórkowski wrote:

Hi all,

To be a bit more positive:

If we want to get buildings on the map, but we can't get Canada-wide
data improved by Statcan to a standard acceptable to all mappers in
Canada, IMO the best bet will be to split this into much smaller
batches and support local mappers who would be interested in getting
the data in.

In my browsing of neis-one.org statistics for Canadian mappers and the
Notes active in Canada, I've seen active mappers and small communities
in at least Halifax, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, and Victoria
metros, and I might have missed some more. Many of them I have never
seen on the mailing list (which is a whole another issue), but
contacting them directly (via osm.org messages?), asking if they are
aware of other local mappers, if they would be interested in having
building data, if it is of acceptable standard to them, and if they
would be willing to help validate-and-upload the data (with help of
the central tooling) might get some success.

I hope that will go better than the previous attempt which could be
read - uncharitably - as a bunch of mailing list insiders throwing
federal data over the fence with little consultation.

It'll be a lot of work communicating and organizing. But getting
buildings is a lot of work, and if data producers can't do better,
whoever wants the buildings will have to do the work. Maybe with more
local support even the imports list will be more bearable.

Thanks,
--Jarek

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Re: [Talk-ca] Importing buildings in Canada

[Jarek Piórkowski]

Hi all,

To be a bit more positive:

If we want to get buildings on the map, but we can't get Canada-wide
data improved by Statcan to a standard acceptable to all mappers in
Canada, IMO the best bet will be to split this into much smaller
batches and support local mappers who would be interested in getting
the data in.

In my browsing of neis-one.org statistics for Canadian mappers and the
Notes active in Canada, I've seen active mappers and small communities
in at least Halifax, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, and Victoria
metros, and I might have missed some more. Many of them I have never
seen on the mailing list (which is a whole another issue), but
contacting them directly (via osm.org messages?), asking if they are
aware of other local mappers, if they would be interested in having
building data, if it is of acceptable standard to them, and if they
would be willing to help validate-and-upload the data (with help of
the central tooling) might get some success.

I hope that will go better than the previous attempt which could be
read - uncharitably - as a bunch of mailing list insiders throwing
federal data over the fence with little consultation.

It'll be a lot of work communicating and organizing. But getting
buildings is a lot of work, and if data producers can't do better,
whoever wants the buildings will have to do the work. Maybe with more
local support even the imports list will be more bearable.

Thanks,
--Jarek

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Re: [Talk-ca] Importing buildings in Canada

[Pierre Béland via Talk-ca]

Je comprends que c'est la saison des tomates. Mais essayons de les utiliser 
pour nos conserves et non comme argument pour convaincre les autres 
contributeurs !  ;)
Comme les autres l'ont exprimé, c'est à ceux qui proposent de faire des imports 
de bien documenter le processus, non l'inverse. Et les menaces d'agir de façon 
impériale et négliger les communautés locales, cela ne tient évidemment pas la 
route.
Pour discuter sur la qualité des données, il est nécessaire de pouvoir 
facilement examiner les données. Et je ne penses pas que les données soient 
comparables d'un endroit à l'autre. La qualité des images, la densité du bâti 
en milieu urbains sont autant de facteurs.
 Les fichiers accessibles aussi bien pour StatCan que Microsoft sont très gros. 
Simplement pour analyser les données de nos municipalités respectives, il faut 
traiter de gros fichiers et tenter d'extraire les données. Ce qui n'est pas 
nécessairement facile et va bien sûr limiter la participation.
Question de donner des exemples sur les limites d'observation des images par 
les technique de AI, j'ai publié des images avec les 2 tweets suivants montrant 
des bâtiments au centre de Toronto :
https://twitter.com/pierzen/status/1177976517902684160
https://twitter.com/pierzen/status/1177978125377884160
On voit bien qu'il ne suffit pas de valider si les angles sont droits. Ces 
exemples montrent bien comment le tracé peut varier significativement vs la 
réalité au sol. Et tout comme les humains, les techniques de AI ont de la 
difficulté à identifier les bâtiments individuels.

cordialement 
Pierre 
 

Le vendredi 27 septembre 2019 22 h 52 min 59 s UTC−4, Jarek Piórkowski 
 a écrit :  
 
 On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 at 11:45, john whelan  wrote:
> ...
> About that time an American mapper, Nate, who was living in Toronto ...

Sorry, one more thing.

Nate was an active editor in Toronto at the time of the initial import
conflict/objection and has remained so as regularly as we can ask of
any community member. In Toronto we call people living here and
contributing to the community "Torontonians".

As you will recall, I disagree with Nate about the suitability of
initial building import data. Notwithstanding, the description quoted
above reads unfairly dismissive to me. You can maybe make arguments
about Torontonians discussing what shouldn't be imported in rest of
Canada, or about whether we should expect mappers to be subscribed to
talk-ca, but let's leave places of birth out of this.

--Jarek

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