Re: [Talk-GB] [Osmf-talk] Live OSM discussion in ~45 minutes (7.30pm UK time)

[Simon Poole]

On 26.07.2017 23:58, Ilya Zverev wrote:
> 
> but these people are a minority in OSM,
Numbers please.

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Re: [Talk-GB] [Osmf-talk] Live OSM discussion in ~45 minutes (7.30pm UK time)

[Ilya Zverev]

I have just went and rewatched the recording of Monica's 11-minute talk. 
While I was dismissive of her arguments four years ago, now I see that 
all of her points were valid, and are still valid. We have done nothing 
wrt diversity in our project. HOT did something, some local communities 
did (e.g. GeoChicas), but OpenStreetMap in general is still white, male 
and disregarding of any external point of view.


The tagging issue Monica raised was more about the proposal process in 
general, and most of us (I hope) have known it to be highly flawed. But 
the case with the childcare was telling: not only voters did not know 
what childcare was, they did not care. Significantly more people in the 
world find childcare facilities and the distinction between childcares, 
kindergartens and whatever more important that swinger clubs and 
brothels, but these people are a minority in OSM, and since we have 
meritocracy slash democracy (none of that actually, but that's often 
heard), that means minorities are not effecting OSM.


Sadly, I have no idea how to fix this. Dave's reply shows we are still a 
long way from being a diverse community where all opinions are heard and 
not dismissed.


Ilya


26.07.2017 23:02, Frederik Ramm пишет:

Hi,

>
... 


* Sadly the talk included the usual drive-by accusations of sexism in
OSM. It said, and I am not making this up: "There has been some work by
Monica Stephens that has discussed how new tag proposals for feminized
or (inaudible) spaces are given less, quote, attention" (this is
referring to a very badly researched 2013 article that essentially
contrsated took low vote outcome on a childcare tagging proposal with
brothels and swinger cluby in OSM to brand OSM sexist), and then went on
"also, one of our interviewees mentioned that she had, quote, heard of
women not being listened to or respected". -- What he's doing here is
quoting an anonymous source that is quoting an anonymous source that
says something about OSM, and that is good enough to make a sexism claim.

The whole talk did, it seems to me, slightly overrate the importance of
tagging discussions (they claimed to have interviewed 15 people but it
is unclear how they selected those 15), and therefore the discussion
that ensued was mostly around the question "how can we make sure that
everyone has a say in tagging discussions".

There seemed to be an underlying assumption that binding votes on
tagging, or at least a well-defined process to standardize and maintain
the global tagging ontology, was necessary (and not least, all those
autocratic editor writes need to submit to the community vote and not
invoke privilege to create presets that others must then follow).

I wouldn't say this has given me any new insights or ideas for the
future, but it is an interesting study in how (relative) outsiders
approach OSM.

I think we as a project really need to publish a more through, and more
visible, takedown on that 2013 Monica Stephens article though. At the
time I thought "oh well, bad research comes and goes, no need to start a
fight every time a researcher writes something wrong about OSM", but
that one seems to be found, believed in, and quoted by other researchers
just too much.

Bye
Frederik




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Re: [Talk-GB] Live OSM discussion in ~45 minutes (7.30pm UK time)

[Andy Mabbett]

On 26 July 2017 at 21:02, Dan S  wrote:
> 2017-07-26 20:14 GMT+01:00 Dave F :

> Andy: why did you ask the speaker "who is leading on addressing
> [issues]?" I'd think you'd me much more likely to know the answer than
> would the speaker.

Well, you'd be wrong; not only do I not know the answer, I'm not aware
that the issue has ever been addressed.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Live OSM discussion in ~45 minutes (7.30pm UK time)

[Frederik Ramm]

Hey Dave,

On 07/26/2017 09:14 PM, Dave F wrote:
> What the !*&@
> Just tuned in & they're talking about hostility & sexism?!

The more toxic your post, the more you prove them right ;)

But yes, it is with some sadness that I see this what I call drive-by
allegations of "toxicity" and "sexism" and whatnot. I think that these
are serious allegations and they must be quantified and qualified.

This morning I noticed someone who had written "JEW" across a house in
OSM. Does that make OSM a project with an ingrained Nazi attitude, or do
we simply have the same proportion of assholes that exists in the whole
of society? And if we do, is it our fault that we need to remedy, or
should we be applauded for representing a diverse part of the population ;)

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Talk-GB] Live OSM discussion in ~45 minutes (7.30pm UK time)

[Dan S]

2017-07-26 20:14 GMT+01:00 Dave F :
> What the !*&@
>
> Just tuned in & they're talking about hostility & sexism?!

Well, these are common problems in open/libre forums, well documented
in open-source projects such as GNU/Linux and Wikipedia, and it's not
unreasonable to consider them in a talk about the social dynamics of
an open data project. He didn't actually spend much of the
presentation talking about this, basically just quoted some of the old
well-known debates that were aired a few years back. The talk wasn't
an intro to OSM, it was some student's talk about social dynamics in
open projects.

I wasn't very keen on his talk, because he didn't really acknowledge
the fludity of tagging standards. He repeatedly spoke as if the wiki
was the law and people who "broke" the law might eventually be able to
change the law, which to me is a weird way of conceiving it. He also
suggested that OSM should have "mechanisms" to update this law based
on use, without acknowledging that fluid unstructured systems (the
wiki, mailing lists, the openness of osm editing) can perhaps already
be the mediums for it.

He also didn't discuss _at all_ the way that systematically-structured
data is produced from OSM in practice right now by consumers, i.e.
postprocessing.

Andy: why did you ask the speaker "who is leading on addressing
[issues]?" I'd think you'd me much more likely to know the answer than
would the speaker.

Dan


> On 26/07/2017 18:45, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>>
>> I've just learned that this week's Wikimedia Research Showcase,
>> streamed online TONIGHT at 7.30pm UK time, will focus on structured
>> data in OpenStreetMap. Details below.
>>
>> -- Forwarded message --
>>
>> The next Research Showcase will be live-streamed this Wednesday, July
>> 26, 2017 at 11:30 AM (PST) 18:30 UTC.
>>
>> YouTube stream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC1jgK8C8aQ
>>
>> As usual, you can join the conversation on IRC at #wikimedia-research.
>> And, you can watch our past research showcases here:
>>
>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Research/Showcase#July_2017
>>
>> This month's presentation:
>>
>> Freedom versus Standardization: Structured Data Generation in a Peer
>> Production CommunityBy Andrew HallIn addition to encyclopedia articles
>> and software, peer production communities produce structured data,
>> e.g., Wikidata and OpenStreetMap’s metadata. Structured data from peer
>> production communities has become increasingly important due to its
>> use by computational applications, such as CartoCSS, MapBox, and
>> Wikipedia infoboxes. However, this structured data is usable by
>> applications only if it follows standards. We did an interview study
>> focused on OpenStreetMap’s knowledge production processes to
>> investigate how – and how successfully – this community creates and
>> applies its data standards. Our study revealed a fundamental tension
>> between the need to produce structured data in a standardized way and
>> OpenStreetMap’s tradition of contributor freedom. We extracted six
>> themes that manifested this tension and three overarching concepts,
>> correctness, community, and code, which help make sense of and
>> synthesize the themes. We also offer suggestions for improving
>> OpenStreetMap’s knowledge production processes, including new data
>> models, sociotechnical tools, and community practices.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] [Osmf-talk] Live OSM discussion in ~45 minutes (7.30pm UK time)

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 07/26/2017 07:45 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:
> I've just learned that this week's Wikimedia Research Showcase,
> streamed online TONIGHT at 7.30pm UK time, will focus on structured
> data in OpenStreetMap. Details below.

Thank you for the link, apparently it can still be watched after:

> YouTube stream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC1jgK8C8aQ

I think the research bit was generally ok, albeit it didn't really
follow Muki Hakalay's "code of engagement" for scientists with OSM (
https://povesham.wordpress.com/2011/07/16/observing-from-afar-or-joining-the-action-osm-and-giscience-research/).

I took issue with a few items.

* The talk seemed to assume that the listener knows what "Dairy Queen"
or "Panera Bread" are ;)

* The talk seemed to try very hard to say OSM had "western standards" or
"UK cultural assumptions" but I felt that was very un-convincing on the
whole; it even showed two very differently built roads of the same
tagging in the US and Africa which to me seemed to prove the point that
things work ok - we don't demand that a road in Africa must be built to
the same standards as one in America to be a "primary" or whatever.

* The talk clearly had a HOT bias; towards the end there was even a
slide that tried to discuss "whose new ideas can influence the
standard", and it listed these four bullet points: "HOT", "Men",
"Hostile contributors", and "Code creators" (who, as discussed earlier,
had the power to limit the freedom of others).

* Sadly the talk included the usual drive-by accusations of sexism in
OSM. It said, and I am not making this up: "There has been some work by
Monica Stephens that has discussed how new tag proposals for feminized
or (inaudible) spaces are given less, quote, attention" (this is
referring to a very badly researched 2013 article that essentially
contrsated took low vote outcome on a childcare tagging proposal with
brothels and swinger cluby in OSM to brand OSM sexist), and then went on
"also, one of our interviewees mentioned that she had, quote, heard of
women not being listened to or respected". -- What he's doing here is
quoting an anonymous source that is quoting an anonymous source that
says something about OSM, and that is good enough to make a sexism claim.

The whole talk did, it seems to me, slightly overrate the importance of
tagging discussions (they claimed to have interviewed 15 people but it
is unclear how they selected those 15), and therefore the discussion
that ensued was mostly around the question "how can we make sure that
everyone has a say in tagging discussions".

There seemed to be an underlying assumption that binding votes on
tagging, or at least a well-defined process to standardize and maintain
the global tagging ontology, was necessary (and not least, all those
autocratic editor writes need to submit to the community vote and not
invoke privilege to create presets that others must then follow).

I wouldn't say this has given me any new insights or ideas for the
future, but it is an interesting study in how (relative) outsiders
approach OSM.

I think we as a project really need to publish a more through, and more
visible, takedown on that 2013 Monica Stephens article though. At the
time I thought "oh well, bad research comes and goes, no need to start a
fight every time a researcher writes something wrong about OSM", but
that one seems to be found, believed in, and quoted by other researchers
just too much.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Talk-GB] Live OSM discussion in ~45 minutes (7.30pm UK time)

[Dave F]

What the !*&@

Just tuned in & they're talking about hostility & sexism?!

Anybody know the usernsme of AndyHall? (The blonde guy in the broadcast)

DaveF


Who are these people?

On 26/07/2017 18:45, Andy Mabbett wrote:

I've just learned that this week's Wikimedia Research Showcase,
streamed online TONIGHT at 7.30pm UK time, will focus on structured
data in OpenStreetMap. Details below.

-- Forwarded message --

The next Research Showcase will be live-streamed this Wednesday, July
26, 2017 at 11:30 AM (PST) 18:30 UTC.

YouTube stream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC1jgK8C8aQ

As usual, you can join the conversation on IRC at #wikimedia-research.
And, you can watch our past research showcases here:

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Research/Showcase#July_2017

This month's presentation:

Freedom versus Standardization: Structured Data Generation in a Peer
Production CommunityBy Andrew HallIn addition to encyclopedia articles
and software, peer production communities produce structured data,
e.g., Wikidata and OpenStreetMap’s metadata. Structured data from peer
production communities has become increasingly important due to its
use by computational applications, such as CartoCSS, MapBox, and
Wikipedia infoboxes. However, this structured data is usable by
applications only if it follows standards. We did an interview study
focused on OpenStreetMap’s knowledge production processes to
investigate how – and how successfully – this community creates and
applies its data standards. Our study revealed a fundamental tension
between the need to produce structured data in a standardized way and
OpenStreetMap’s tradition of contributor freedom. We extracted six
themes that manifested this tension and three overarching concepts,
correctness, community, and code, which help make sense of and
synthesize the themes. We also offer suggestions for improving
OpenStreetMap’s knowledge production processes, including new data
models, sociotechnical tools, and community practices.








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[Talk-GB] Live OSM discussion in ~45 minutes (7.30pm UK time)

[Andy Mabbett]

I've just learned that this week's Wikimedia Research Showcase,
streamed online TONIGHT at 7.30pm UK time, will focus on structured
data in OpenStreetMap. Details below.

-- Forwarded message --

The next Research Showcase will be live-streamed this Wednesday, July
26, 2017 at 11:30 AM (PST) 18:30 UTC.

YouTube stream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC1jgK8C8aQ

As usual, you can join the conversation on IRC at #wikimedia-research.
And, you can watch our past research showcases here:

   https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Research/Showcase#July_2017

This month's presentation:

Freedom versus Standardization: Structured Data Generation in a Peer
Production CommunityBy Andrew HallIn addition to encyclopedia articles
and software, peer production communities produce structured data,
e.g., Wikidata and OpenStreetMap’s metadata. Structured data from peer
production communities has become increasingly important due to its
use by computational applications, such as CartoCSS, MapBox, and
Wikipedia infoboxes. However, this structured data is usable by
applications only if it follows standards. We did an interview study
focused on OpenStreetMap’s knowledge production processes to
investigate how – and how successfully – this community creates and
applies its data standards. Our study revealed a fundamental tension
between the need to produce structured data in a standardized way and
OpenStreetMap’s tradition of contributor freedom. We extracted six
themes that manifested this tension and three overarching concepts,
correctness, community, and code, which help make sense of and
synthesize the themes. We also offer suggestions for improving
OpenStreetMap’s knowledge production processes, including new data
models, sociotechnical tools, and community practices.





-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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