Re: [Talk-GB] 'D' class roads references.

[David Woolley]

On 05/08/18 23:04, Warin wrote:
The legal niceties are above me, but the phone book people won ... so 
even though the facts in the phone book are not copyright, practically 
you cannot copy them into your own data base.

Ridiculous but true.
I'd think similar legal arguments could be made in a British court.


There is no need to rely on case law, as there is now statute law that 
covers this, and has been for at least 20 year:




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Re: [Talk-GB] 'D' class roads references.

[David Woolley]

On 05/08/18 22:00, Mark Goodge wrote:
either via a licence which permits re-use or an explicit grant of 
permission from the rightsholder.


That's what a licence is, an explicit grant of permission!

The confusion probably arises because of the open source movement's 
creation of the concept of a public licence, which is a grant to anyone 
who might obtain a copy.


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Re: [Talk-GB] 'D' class roads references.

[Warin]

On 06/08/18 06:10, Martin Wynne wrote:

Copyright doesn't work like that.


But you can't copyright names, addresses and similar material.

Road names and numbers would surely fall within that.

I'm not suggesting copying the document and posting it verbatim.


There was a long and costly court case in Australia where a firm had 
used the information in  phone books to make their own data base.


Facts cannot be copyrighted in Australian Law. but any skill etc can be 
copyrighted.

The case was fought.
The legal niceties are above me, but the phone book people won ... so 
even though the facts in the phone book are not copyright, practically 
you cannot copy them into your own data base.

Ridiculous but true.
I'd think similar legal arguments could be made in a British court.

Be carefull.

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Re: [Talk-GB] 'D' class roads references.

[Mark Goodge]

On 05/08/2018 22:55, Martin Wynne wrote:
But C and D numbers are not (normally) public, they are internal 
identifiers not intended for public use.


They often appear in planning applications, and public notices about 
road works and diversions.


So do extracts of detailed OS maps. That doesn't make them open data.


All of which are intended for public use.

I can't see why Worcestershire County Council would go to the trouble to 
put information on its web site, if it's not intended for public use.


"Public use" is not the same as available for re-use.

Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] 'D' class roads references.

[David Woolley]

On 05/08/18 21:10, Martin Wynne wrote:

Copyright doesn't work like that.


But you can't copyright names, addresses and similar material.


That's why the legislators introduced the concept of database rights. 
OSM works more in the concept of database rights, which don't require 
creativity, only that some effort be spent in collecting the data.


Some printed maps are also subject to copyright because human creativity 
has gone into the exact representations used.




Road names and numbers would surely fall within that.

I'm not suggesting copying the document and posting it verbatim.


Database rights apply to copying all or a substantial part, and OSM take 
the position that it is still copying  substantial part if lots of 
people copy different parts that wouldn't individually, be protected.


Incidentally, historically, printed maps contained deliberate errors to 
allow copying to be detected.


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Re: [Talk-GB] 'D' class roads references.

[Martin Wynne]

But C and D numbers are not (normally) public, they are internal identifiers 
not intended for public use.


They often appear in planning applications, and public notices about 
road works and diversions.


All of which are intended for public use.

I can't see why Worcestershire County Council would go to the trouble to 
put information on its web site, if it's not intended for public use.


Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] 'D' class roads references.

[Mark Goodge]

On 05/08/2018 14:44, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

Rob Nickerson wrote:

Dave can you do the D class roads too. Someone has added these -
e.g: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/52.21554/-1.87663


That reminds me - there's some weird ones in Hillingdon too:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/51.5603/-0.3943

Can anyone think of a location in mainland GB where
tertiary/unclassified/residential roads _should_ have a (non-A/B[1]) ref?
Milton Keynes has its (signposted) H and V numbers for Horizontal/Vertical,
but other than that I can't remember any.


The H and V numbers in Milton Keynes aren't actually numbers, in the 
road numbering sense. They're names, or parts of names, in the same way 
that "Fifth Avenue" and "32nd Street" are names of roads in New York.


The use of H and V numbers in Milton Keynes to mimic US-style numbered 
street/avenue names was deliberate, along with the grid layout of the 
street pattern. The aim was to give Milton Keynes a very distinctive 
structural style, all part of the vision of a "new city".


In practice, both the naming and layout have softened somewhat since 
first being built, with most streets now having "normal" names as well 
as H and V numbers, and newer residential streets not necessarily 
following the grid pattern. But most major longitudinal and latitudinal 
roads retain their original H and V numbers as part of the current name 
(for example, "V7 Saxon Street" and "H6 Childs Way").


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] 'D' class roads references.

[Mark Goodge]

On 05/08/2018 21:10, Martin Wynne wrote:

Copyright doesn't work like that.


But you can't copyright names, addresses and similar material.

Road names and numbers would surely fall within that.


Public road names and numbers (eg, names on name plates and numbers on 
road signs) fall within that. But C and D numbers are not (normally) 
public, they are internal identifiers not intended for public use. The 
fact that a published document may include them doesn't necessarily mean 
that they can be re-used.


In practice, I doubt that there would be any objection to them being 
incorporated in other documents such as OSM. But OSM doesn't work on the 
basis that something is probably OK, however high the probability. It 
needs to be definitely and incontrovertibly OK, either via a licence 
which permits re-use or an explicit grant of permission from the 
rightsholder.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] 'D' class roads references.

[Martin Wynne]

Copyright doesn't work like that.


But you can't copyright names, addresses and similar material.

Road names and numbers would surely fall within that.

I'm not suggesting copying the document and posting it verbatim.

Martin.


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Re: [Talk-GB] 'D' class roads references.

[Richard Fairhurst]

Martin Wynne wrote:
> Google publishes a map for profit.
> Worcestershire County Council is paid for by me. And a few others.

Sure. The point is that copyright automatically subsists unless expressly
disclaimed.

WCC has not expressly openly licensed this data. You can't just say "it's
publicly funded therefore I can copy it", as the Ordnance Survey would be at
pains to remind you.

If you want to copy C-road numbers from WCC (into a sensible tag, please,
not ref=) then you can approach WCC to license the information openly. In
all my dealings with them, albeit in a cycling rather than an OSM context,
I've found them to be a very forward-looking authority so I have no reason
to think they'd refuse. But until this or any other data is published under
a licence compatible with OSM, you can't just use public funding as
sufficient grounds for copying. Copyright doesn't work like that.

Richard



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Re: [Talk-GB] 'D' class roads references.

[David Woolley]

On 05/08/18 19:02, Martin Wynne wrote:


Worcestershire County Council is paid for by me. And a few others.


The only place for which I am aware of national legislation making 
certain government publications automatically free to use is the USA. 
Even there it only applies to the Federal Government, and only to the 
extent that the material doesn't come from a private contractor with 
whom the rights to release were not negotiated (typically software 
licences explicitly override the Federal Governments rights to put that 
software into the public domain).


Some US states and cities have such  policies but it is not universal.

The OSM movement are one of the groups that are trying to get UK local 
government to publish more on open licences, but a large amount of data 
is still restricted, and a lot of it is tainted by being based on 
coordinates taken from OS maps.  A good example are right of way maps. 
The actual maps are tainted by OS data, and a lot of councils still have 
to be convinced to release the narrative descriptions.


Whilst you might think that local councils ought to publish, that is 
often a political issue, complicated by the cost of ensuring that the 
data is not tainted by information from commercial sources - releasing 
data has some cost to the council.


There is also pressure on councils to find ways of making money.  You 
might notice the recent news about how underfunding has affected 
children's services.


Encouraging using data without getting properly documented clearances 
puts OSM at risk in at least two ways:


1) The data owner might enforce their rights after the data has been 
widely used, and the subsequent redaction of the OSM database will be 
very disruptive;


2) If people cannot be sure that OSM will respect restrictions on data, 
people may play safe and simply not consider releasing any of it.


(I think there are quite a lot of cases where OSM has been directly 
contaminated with Google data, as well.)


Use in OSM also requires permission to use for profit, which goes beyond 
simple release to the public for their personal use.


OSM actually exists because of proprietary ownership of mapping data. 
Widespread availability of GPS devices meant it was possible for people 
to bypass the typical mapping data suppliers and obtain the data 
directly from what is on the ground, and it is that ability that led to 
OSM being created.


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Re: [Talk-GB] 'D' class roads references.

[Martin Wynne]

Google publishes a map, but that doesn't mean it's an admissible source for
OSM. :)

Richard


Google publishes a map for profit.

Worcestershire County Council is paid for by me. And a few others.

At this rate, nothing could ever appear on OSM because it is mentioned 
in a dictionary or on a T-shirt somewhere.


Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] 'D' class roads references.

[Richard Fairhurst]

Martin Wynne wrote:
> Worcestershire County Council publishes PDF text lists (no mapping) 
> of classified and unclassified roads.

Google publishes a map, but that doesn't mean it's an admissible source for
OSM. :)

Richard



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Re: [Talk-GB] 'C' class roads references.

[Martin Wynne]

There is at least one C road that is signed on the ground because I
remember being surprised at seeing it. It's somewhere in
Cumbria/Yorkshire but I mapped it so long ago I can't remember where
the hell it is


Hi Brian,

There are dozens of them. See this page for photos:

 http://www.cbrd.co.uk/photo/c-roads

The link was posted here earlier.

cheers,

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] 'C' class roads references.

[Philip Barnes]

On Sun, 2018-08-05 at 16:21 +0100, Brian Prangle wrote:
> There is at least one C road that is signed on the ground because I
> remember being surprised at seeing it. It's somewhere in
> Cumbria/Yorkshire but I mapped it so long ago I can't remember where
> the hell it is
> 

Although it could have been a short term glitch. I remember a C road
sign appearing in Leicestershire, but it was quickly replaced, not doubt once 
the mistake was spotted and a new sign had been ordered and fitted.

Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: [Talk-GB] 'C' class roads references.

[Brian Prangle]

There is at least one C road that is signed on the ground because I
remember being surprised at seeing it. It's somewhere in Cumbria/Yorkshire
but I mapped it so long ago I can't remember where the hell it is

Regards

Brian

On 5 August 2018 at 12:34, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:

> Killyfole and District Development Association wrote:
> > So I hear a urgent traffic update on the radio that there was a forest
> > fire
> > on the C425 Eshnadarragh Road and that the Fire Service have closed
> > the road due to the pumping equipment needed to fight the fire.
>
> Dave originally wrote "Note I didn't include Northern Ireland" so I'm not
> quite sure what your issue is here. C road numbers are not public-facing in
> mainland GB and this edit refers to mainland GB only.
>
> Richard
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] 'D' class roads references.

[Philip Barnes]

On Sun, 2018-08-05 at 15:23 +0100, Lester Caine wrote:

> So we end up with data that should not be displayed ... but is still 
> valid data in terms of the database!

Which comes back to they should not be in the ref tag in osm, but in
something else such as admin_ref so that those who are interesting can
produce their own specialist rendering if they wish to see these tags
displayed.

Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: [Talk-GB] 'D' class roads references.

[Lester Caine]

On 05/08/18 14:44, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

Rob Nickerson wrote:

Dave can you do the D class roads too. Someone has added these -
e.g:https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/52.21554/-1.87663


And D designations will be reused in other areas ... I have seen a 
couple more D5383 such as D5383, Johns Road, Bugbrooke but possibly not 
in OSM ... these designations ARE used in publicly published reports.



That reminds me - there's some weird ones in Hillingdon too:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/51.5603/-0.3943


https://www.hillingdon.gov.uk/media/28177/List-of-classified-roads/pdf/JW-LIST_OF_CLASSIFIED_ROADS.pdf 
is probably the source of those designations ...



Can anyone think of a location in mainland GB where
tertiary/unclassified/residential roads_should_  have a (non-A/B[1]) ref?
Milton Keynes has its (signposted) H and V numbers for Horizontal/Vertical,
but other than that I can't remember any.


Interestingly, from the guidelines ...
C road 
–
another term for a classified unnumbered road. Any numbering 
system around C roads is peculiar to the authority and is not coordinated on a 
national basis; as a result, we advise that it is not displayed.



D road
–
another term for an unclassified road. Any numbering system around 
D roads is peculiar to the authority and is not coordinated on a national basis; 
as a result, we advise that it is not displayed.


So we end up with data that should not be displayed ... but is still 
valid data in terms of the database!


--
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-
Contact - https://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - https://enquirysolve.com/
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Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] 'D' class roads references.

[Martin Wynne]

There is also the question of the source used, locally the source of
these references would be an overlay over an OS map labeled crown
copyright making such data incompatible with OSM. I assume that most
local authorities will use similar GIS systems?


Hi Phil,

Worcestershire County Council publishes PDF text lists (no mapping) of 
classified and unclassified roads. Details of road names, grid 
references, lengths:



http://www.worcestershire.gov.uk/downloads/download/924/searches_and_adopted_roads_classified_and_unclassified_roads

I imagine other counties do the same?

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] 'D' class roads references.

[Philip Barnes]

On Sun, 2018-08-05 at 08:44 -0500, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> Rob Nickerson wrote:
> > Dave can you do the D class roads too. Someone has added these - 
> > e.g: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/52.21554/-1.87663
> 
> That reminds me - there's some weird ones in Hillingdon too:
>    https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/51.5603/-0.3943
> 
> Can anyone think of a location in mainland GB where
> tertiary/unclassified/residential roads _should_ have a (non-A/B[1])
> ref?
> Milton Keynes has its (signposted) H and V numbers for
> Horizontal/Vertical,
> but other than that I can't remember any.
> 
> Richard
> 
I don't think there are any. I believe there is guidance to local
authorities that these references should not be signed.

There is also the question of the source used, locally the source of
these references would be an overlay over an OS map labeled crown
copyright making such data incompatible with OSM. I assume that most
local authorities will use similar GIS systems?

Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: [Talk-GB] 'D' class roads references.

[Richard Fairhurst]

Rob Nickerson wrote:
> Dave can you do the D class roads too. Someone has added these - 
> e.g: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/52.21554/-1.87663

That reminds me - there's some weird ones in Hillingdon too:
   https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/51.5603/-0.3943

Can anyone think of a location in mainland GB where
tertiary/unclassified/residential roads _should_ have a (non-A/B[1]) ref?
Milton Keynes has its (signposted) H and V numbers for Horizontal/Vertical,
but other than that I can't remember any.

Richard

[1] there is the very occasional example of a tertiary A road, notably
Oxford High Street which is normally closed to through traffic but still the
A420



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[Talk-GB] 'D' class roads references.

[Rob Nickerson]

Dave can you do the D class roads too. Someone has added these - e.g:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/52.21554/-1.87663

Thanks,
*Rob*
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Re: [Talk-GB] 'C' class roads references.

[Richard Fairhurst]

Killyfole and District Development Association wrote:
> So I hear a urgent traffic update on the radio that there was a forest
> fire 
> on the C425 Eshnadarragh Road and that the Fire Service have closed 
> the road due to the pumping equipment needed to fight the fire.

Dave originally wrote "Note I didn't include Northern Ireland" so I'm not
quite sure what your issue is here. C road numbers are not public-facing in
mainland GB and this edit refers to mainland GB only.

Richard



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