> there are some followers that believe they are good just because
> they have been dancing for a long time.
If you have none of those followers that /are/ good just because they have
been dancing (well) for a long time, then your:
> I have found that the best followers I have danced with have h
I can't talk for Americans, but I can say that the probable reason most
Argentinians are not so screwed up by the 8 step is that they already know what
good tango looks like and have been immersed in dancing (if not tango) and
tango music since birth. Most anglo-Australians (and I presume anglo
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 00:21 + (GMT Standard Time), Chris, UK
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > If somebody has nothing to sell, he's not going to last very long in any
> > business, including Tango.
>
>
> Yup - sort of explains why there's a never-ending supply of them, doesn't
> it?
So, there's
> Some are good enough at Tango, and work hard enough, to make money
Get real, Keith. The business of tango teaching is first and foremost a
business. What distinguishes the famous names is business ability -
teaching ability is not even a requirement.
One has to accept this in order to have a
And don't underestimate the consumer. If somebody has nothing to sell, he's
not going to last very long in any business, including Tango. - Keith, HK
Well, if Tango class consumers are anything like Second Language class
consumers,
if somebody has nothing to sell, they can still do dam
Chris,
Why are you so obsessed about people making money from Tango? Nobody
else seems to raise the subject and I suspect that's because no one else is
interested. Some are good enough at Tango, and work hard enough, to make
money - get over it.
And don't underestimate the consumer. If somebo
> The real question is, who knows more about
> teaching and dancing Tango - Argentines or Americans?
Actually, the more significant question is: who knows more about selling it.
As any Chilean will tell you ;) the first words every Argentine learns
are "mama", "papa" and "marketing".
> I teach
On Thursday, February 14, 2008 1:30 AM [GMT+1=CET],
Thorsten Zörner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> maltreated the keyboard with:
...a very nice story to tell the students!
> Question: Story (_) right or (X) wrong?
I really like your story, but to get information about the origin, check
http://www.bridgetot
Another similar one that I really like is to change to crossed feet and
walk the lady to her Cruzada. When she crosses I also cross my LF in
front of RF. Still in crossed feet and lots of interesting stuff can follow.
And, I agree with all your comments about the D8CB.
Keith, HK
On Thu Feb 14
On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 01:55 + (GMT Standard Time), Chris, UK
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> the Milongueros ... choose to dance only to their favorite songs
>
> > That's fine. But that only means they will never expand their ability
> > to learn to enjoy other tangos :)
>
> What a tragic misu
Thorsten,
Well, you've certainly made my day. We've had Javier Rodriguez here in
Hong Kong and he probably made a bigger impression than anyone else
that's ever been here. And, yes, Asian ladies certainly make wonderful
tangueras; delightfully feminine and an absolute joy to dance with.
Keith,
>> the Milongueros ... choose to dance only to their favorite songs
> That's fine. But that only means they will never expand their ability
> to learn to enjoy other tangos :)
What a tragic misunderstanding. Sitting listening is precisely what /does/
expand one's ability to learn to enjoy other
rally, a figure that can be
executed in one direction, can be executed in the other direction. It's not
good form to try something new at a milonga.
Michael
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
- Original Message -
From: "'Mash" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject:
Hi Keith, hi all,
before I swallow this bait, that Keith has put out for me...
On 13.02.08, at 19:14, Keith wrote:
> Btw, my friends in England tell me that German tango is the best in
> Europe. True?
... I'd like to share a theory about the origin of the paso basico,
that I heard once - but
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hello Subscribers,
>
> I see that this thread has drifted into an international feud over who dances
> better tango,
An Argentine, of course, need not debate that point ad nauseam. He dances
better than all the other people on the planet (of the same sex), and it all
g
I find this thread very interesting, because a year ago when I first started on
my new hobby, I soon realized that people had some strong opinions about the
8CB. All the Argentinian teachers I encountered, used it, but only one
American teacher did (with all the others saying it was blasphamy o
Tango For Her wrote:
> Interesting side story ...
>
> As a beginner, I remember a teacher asking if any of
> the leaders could dance themselves into a cross. That
> is, dance their own feet into a cross.
>
> I volunteered. The only way that I could conceive of
> doing that was to lead the basic
Trini,
You raise a very good point here - work ethic. When I first
went to BsAs in 1997, I'd already been teaching Ballroom and
Latin dancing for many years. The first thing that struck ime in
Argentina was how hard all the students worked in class. Even
now, it's the same - I stll wish my own
Bob mentions a point that deserves emphasis. I too have often heard Argentine
instructors say something, in demonstrating a step, about starting from
position 2 or 3. They may not even teach the 8CB, but if they want to start a
demo with the leader's right foot forward in parallel, it's much mo
Hello Subscribers,
I see that this thread has drifted into an international feud over who dances
better tango,
as many threads on this list seem to do.? Let me attempt to get back on topic.
First, the 8CB is a school figure.? As is true for most so called "basic" steps
for
any dance, the 8CB
Hi Thorsten,
Nice to hear from a European, I was feeling lonely here :-).
I agree with what you say. Everything is based on our personal experience,
which, of course, is limited. And that's why I really want to hear what other
people experience and why they think the way they do.
Btw, my frien
Hi Keith, how're you doing?
Allow me to suggest a subtle rewording of two sentences in your
previous e-mail.
I believe that this is what you might wanted to say anyway:
On 13.02.08, at 18:36, Keith wrote:
> ...
> All I'm saying is that your views are contrary to what I've
> experienced in Arg
--- Keith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Why do Americans have this big problem with the 8CB? Could
it be because of the way Americans learn Tango?
>
> Keith, HK
The short answer is "yes". Tom's post gives the long
answer. I even know of a well-known Argentine teacher who
worked with an excellent
I'm sorry Tom, but I think you're the one being angry and rude, not me.
Because I question the sidewalk walk that you teach and your super-strong
objections to the 8CB, you say I'm being angry and rude. All I'm saying is
that your views are contrary to what I've experienced in Argentina. You
te
Of course, Keith (HK) is right that many Argentines teach the 8CB or use
it in their teaching. That doesn't make it the best approach to teaching.
To repeat an old story (that is at least partially true), the history of
modern tango pedagogy came from the renewed interest in tango that
resulte
to be taught to Americans.
J
TangoMoments.com
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: tango-l@mit.edu
> Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:56:06 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
>
> OK, Jay is the first person to actually touch on what
The legends told in 1996, dating back to 1983, had it that 8CB was
invented in the spirit of balloom dances to give AT a point of
reference where to start, when no one seemed to be able to find any
other point of reference for the improvisational nature of
tango. Stage has influenced that a lo
Keith,When I started taking classes here in Buenos Aires, back in 1994, the
teachers taught an entrance to the dance that they counted however they felt
it in the moment. It was always a game to see how many counts each maestro
gave it at any time. Some began it to the side, and others to the back
OK, Jay is the first person to actually touch on what I'm asking.
So, what is the difference between the American and the Argentine cultures that
results in
these different teaching methods and different problems arising. What I really
want to know,
personally, is why Argentines so much better
Nina, and everybody else,
This has got nothing to do with Oscar Casas. He's just one Argentine
teacher who I happened to come across on YouTube teaching the 8CB.
I'm talking about something much bigger and not specific to any
particular teacher. I want to know why American teachers advocate
te
Patricia,
I completely agree with you. But the point I'm trying to make is that the
problem is not the 8CB, the
problem is way bad teachers use it and teach it. All Argentines learn the 8CB,
I see them all the
time at beginner classes as I wait for the next intermediate class. But they
don't
I will concede the spirit (but certainly not the absolutism) of Keith's "no
American can dance anywhere near the level of the Argentines." It's clear why
this general principle would be the case, cultural immersion, years of
listening to the music, easy availability of master role models, many
I don't think you are being anti-american; just angry and rude. I
don't understand the anger. Rudeness can occur in any culture.
I do not teach the 8CB. I don't do the 8CB. It does not work on a
social dance floor. Try it Oops, ran into this guy; oops ran into
that guy; oops why the hec
Keith,
You are doing a fine job wasting your own time. If I have not heard
of this Oscar and have to google him, that means he is not good
enough or famous enough to talk about. :)
Just because someone is teaching at El Beso, and just because this
person is Argentine, means nothing. They are
Interesting side story ...
As a beginner, I remember a teacher asking if any of
the leaders could dance themselves into a cross. That
is, dance their own feet into a cross.
I volunteered. The only way that I could conceive of
doing that was to lead the basic-8 as though my
partner was the leade
Nancy,
This is exactly what I thought would happen, but hoped wouldn't.
Americans immediately on the defensive, putting words in my mouth
and making no attempt to answer my questions.
Nancy, is there any American alive today who knows more about
Tango than Oscar Casas? Simple question. And, as I
It seems some leaders, even after a couple of years of classes, are locked into
the 8CB while dancing during the milonga.
Teachers seem to use this 8CB as a tool for beginners so that beginners can
feel some sort of sense of accomplishment and have something to use during the
milonga.
But why is
Don't waste our time Nina - never heard of Google? Oscar teaches
at El Beso. Is your next question what's El Beso?
A better question would be who's Tom Stermitz.
Keith, HK
On Wed Feb 13 22:58 , Nina Pesochinsky sent:
>Who is Oscar Casas?
__
In the video link you cite, I see Oscar Casas stepping
backward into the line of dance - into the woman's
ankle behind him in a real social dance setting.
Please explain why you think this is a good thing for
beginners to know.
And do you really believe than any Argentine is a
better dancer than
Who is Oscar Casas?
At 07:49 AM 2/13/2008, Keith wrote:
>I'm not being disrespectful, but I really, really have trouble
>understanding the
>Americans on this List. I assume you'll freely admit that no
>American can dance
>anywhere near the level of the Argentines.And yet you still insist
>on
I'm not being disrespectful, but I really, really have trouble understanding
the
Americans on this List. I assume you'll freely admit that no American can dance
anywhere near the level of the Argentines.And yet you still insist on teaching
Tango your way and not the Argentine way. Why is that?
Hi Mario,
On 2/12/08, Mario <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks for the refreshing honesty, Mash...'going to a job interview'..lol
It's definitely more formal. But that challenges you to dance better.
I'd say that at milongas I mainly dance with dancers I know and
willing to put up with my inexpe
List,
Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
>> So how can the 8CB be taught successfully?
Is your objective to successfully teach improv tango, or to successfully
teach the 8CB? Or to teach dancers to place the 8CB (or parts of it)
within another context? Answering that should probably point you
strai
Trini,
I do something similar. I teach the 8CB as 3 separate figures.
Figure 1 - Steps 1,2 is the Salida;
Figure 2 - Steps 3-5 is walking to the cross; and
Figure 3 - Steps 6-8 is the Resolution.
Of course, step 1 - the back step is usually omitted. A variety of steps and
figures can be taught
Sorry Chris, but http://www.tangohk.com/tango_figures.htm
actually reads:
Some of the Tango figures that you can learn at the Academy are listed
below. I would recommend that you download these lists and mark off each
figure as you learn it. To help you remember you may also wish to include
yo
--- "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So how can the 8CB be taught successfully? I focused on
> using steps 3-8 and used the other steps as accessories.
Oops! I meant focusing on steps 3-5 and using steps 1-2
and 6-8 as accessories.
Trini
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argenti
Actually, I thought the thread on WALKING was MUCH more interesting. Why are
we back to bashing the D8CB? Why can't we be more constructive instead of just
bashing something? I guess because it's easier to criticise?
This comment goes for Chris as well, in spades.
Keith, HK
On Wed Feb 13 1:0
Before I taught close-embrace, I taught tango using the 8CB
and produced successful leaders. So Id say its the bad
or inexperienced teachers that give the 8CB a bad name.
But I also have to agree with Keith that one basically has
to make a decision to overcome a habit and practice it over
and o
Oh, a compliment from Chris. Just fell off my chair.
Keith, HK
On Wed Feb 13 1:58 , "Chris, UK" sent:
>
>I'm glad to see (http://tangohk.com/\) it has has since improved.
>
>--
>Chris
___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mi
I had found something like that too in my lead - but I would go to a
cross when I couldn't think of anything to do..then I went to a
milonga and just challenged my self to leave crosses completely out of
my dance that night. It forced me to be more mindful - I felt a lot
better throughout
Keith wrote:
> Sounds to me like Mash brainwashed himself. Not everything is the
> teacher's fault. Any comment?
Yes: I can see why'd you'd think that, given your teaching syllabus:
http://web.archive.org/web/20061004034120/http://tangohk.com/
Tango Figures
Some of the Tango figures that yo
I agree we all learn by patterns. However, not all patterns are created equal.
The big difference IMO between tango teaching and ballroom is in the number of
steps in a pattern. We all teach rock step patterns, which are 2 or 3 steps
depending on how you count, likewise ochos are a pattern of 1
The most successful approach I have ever used for
teaching newbies and helping beginners and
beginner-intermediates does not involve counting.
And, I like using this method when leading a very
large class, like at one of the big events where
various teachers are rotated through each week. The
fir
Thanks for the refreshing honesty, Mash...'going to a job interview'..lol
I've just spent the past month wondering why the slow Tango is s
difficult
and has this ability to be posed and marched thru instead of danced.
The only thing that I've come up with is that I've heard in BsAs t
On Tue Feb 12 20:44 , "Chris, UK" sent:
>The first thing to do is to switch away from the so-called teacher that
>brainwashed you into it.
Chris,
Maybe you've forgotten, but in his recent post dated 22 January 2008 - 'How to
Learn' Mash wrote:
Quote:
I believe we learn first and foremost f
It depends on the situation.
On stage, no problem.
For an advanced dancer, no problem.
On a social dance floor, the 8CB w/DBS is COMPLETELY non functional.
When you are social dancing, you have to break the pattern every two
steps, so why bother to learn a useless pattern.
For a beginner, i
On Tue, Feb 12, 2008 at 11:44:50AM -0500, Keith wrote:
> Your final question - does anyone knows any brain washing
> techniques ... Good god man, haven't you learned your lesson yet?
>
> Keith, HK
That was a literary device Keith and I put it in just to ruffle your moustache.
'Mash
London,UK
Milonga steps come along so quickly that you don't have time to think.
I notice that people become intuitive-impvorisational dancers more
quickly in milonga. Then the challenge is to translate that over to
tango.
A rhythmic dance in crowded conditions is one way to force that
intuitive-imp
Mash,
To break a habit is not difficult - just stop doing it and stop whining.
Problem solved. There's nothing
wrong with the 8-step basic. But if you've been doing it over and over until it
became a habit, that's
obviously wrong - but that's not the fault of the figure. The same would be
tru
On Tue, Feb 12, 2008 at 08:20:55AM -0700, Tom Stermitz wrote:
> Also, I've found that beginners confidence improves tremendously when
> they "feel" that the movements make sense. This increases retention.
>
> Longer sequences force the dancers into more intellectual or merely
> rote relationsh
Le 12/02/08 14:35, « 'Mash » <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> a écrit :
>
> You fall back onto what you know the best and this basic step sequence must
> have been etched into my head when I first started learning. I am just
> wondering if anyone else has ever experianced this and how they broke out of
> th
Mash says nobody he knows was NOT taught the 8CB w/DBS?
How strange!
I thought teachers in most places had moved to more modern methods.
Are these Argentines or non-Argentines? Stage dancers or social
dancers? Nuevo, Salon or Milonguero?
That sequence is useful for creating choreographies on
--- Mario <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> "" my first 2 months experiance of Tango a year
> ago.To be honest I know noone who when starting
> Tango is not taught the "paso basico" in some form
> or another.You fall back onto what you know the
> best and this basic step sequence
>
>m
"" my first 2 months experiance of Tango a year ago.To be honest I know
noone who when starting Tango is not taught the "paso basico" in some form or
another.You fall back onto what you know the best and this basic step
sequence
must have been etched into my head when I first start
On Tue, Feb 12, 2008 at 12:44:00PM +, Chris, UK wrote:
> 'Mash London,UK wrote:
>
> > "paso basico." ... I really wish I never learnt the damn pattern
>
> Wow. I didn't know there was still anyone in London teaching that kind of
> thing.
>
> > I just want to know if anyone knows any brain
Hey Mash,
you are trying to combat one rote learning thing with another. Try to
just walk. A lot. As much as you can. No sidesteps or backsteps or
"figures". Weight changes are ok. Walk to the music, which is basically
what tango is about anyway.You need to get away from the "painting by
numbe
'Mash London,UK wrote:
> "paso basico." ... I really wish I never learnt the damn pattern
Wow. I didn't know there was still anyone in London teaching that kind of
thing.
> I just want to know if anyone knows any brain washing techniques to rid
> me of this?
The first thing to do is to switch
I am getting frustrated with myself at the moment as I have discovered my first
nasty Tango habit.
I have found that when I am nervous my mind blanks itself of any variation in
steps and defaults to the "paso basico."
The worst thing about this is that I automatically resolve on eight totally
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