That's a good point, George, although depth below the entrance is a practical measure for cavers because that is how far they actually travel, no matter how far below the surface they are.
I disagree with Mary, though. I think they do intend to portray how far below ground the deep caves and mines are, because they present them on a scale starting with the shallowest spaces and progressing to the deepest, always moving deeper into the earth. That's true for boreholes and wells, but not for other underground spaces with large lateral extents. They aren't really comparable in that way. Mark On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 1:34 PM George Veni <gv...@nckri.org> wrote: > For the reasons Mark described, I like the term “vertical extent” instead > of depth. I’ve heard people argue loudly that Kazamura is NOT over 1,000 m > deep, but no one can deny that it has a vertical extent of more than 1,000 > m. > > > > George > > > > ******************** > > George Veni, PhD > > Executive Director, National Cave and Karst Research Institute (NCKRI) > > and > > President, International Union of Speleology (UIS) > > > > *NCKRI address (primary)* > > 400-1 Cascades Avenue > > Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220 USA > > Office: +575-887-5517 > > Mobile: +210-863-5919 > > Fax: +575-887-5523 > > gv...@nckri.org > > www.nckri.org > > > > *UIS address* > > Titov trg 2 > > Postojna, 6230 Slovenia > > www.uis-speleo.org > > www.iyck2021.org > > > > *From:* 'Mary Thiesse' via Southwestern Cavers of the National > Speleological Society <swrcav...@googlegroups.com> > *Sent:* Monday, February 14, 2022 11:07 AM > *To:* John Cochran <jrco...@gmail.com>; Mark Minton < > mamintonca...@gmail.com> > *Cc:* pajaritogro...@googlegroups.com; Southwestern Cavers of the > National Speleological Society <swrcav...@googlegroups.com>; Sandia > Grotto < > sandia-grotto-of-the-national-speleological-soci...@googlegroups.com>; > texascavers@texascavers.com > *Subject:* [SWR CAVERS] Re: [Pajarito Grotto] Fw: [Sandia Grotto]: > Underground comparison video > > > > Hi all, > > > > I don’t think this video was meant to be an exacting measurement but > simply a relative reference for different depths of caves, mines etc. > according to claimed depth of said cave, mine….. > > > > Mary > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS> > > On Monday, February 14, 2022, 10:49 AM, John Cochran <jrco...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > that was worth watching > > > > but they missed our very own WIPP at ~ -655 m > > > > cheers > > John > > > > On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 8:25 AM Mark Minton <mamintonca...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > Actually, several of the caves (and probably some of the mines) are > misrepresented. The bottoms of very few deep caves are as far below the > surface directly above as their depth indicates, because caves don't go > straight down and the surface also goes up and down. Many deep caves have > entrances high on a mountain side and passages that run downslope. Kazumura > is an extreme example, but other deep caves like Huautla and Cheve are > similar. The surface above the deep point is often hundreds of meters lower > than at the entrance. One example I know of that really is as far below the > surface as its depth indicates is Ocotempa in Mexico. It is over 1000 m > deep and goes down like a corkscrew. The bottom is only 50 m offset from > the entrance, although the passage does wander farther away partway down > before turning back at the end. > > > > A related question is how deep you are in a cave whose entrance is at the > bottom of a cliff. As soon as you go inside, the surface is way above, even > if the cave is horizontal. Of course, cave depth below the surface isn't as > meaningful as how far you have to travel to get to the bottom. That's where > all the work is. > > > > Mark Minton > > > > On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 5:40 PM John Lyles <j...@losalamos.com> wrote: > > Its a cool animated video. Even up to date. Kazumura Cave is the only > misrepresentation, as the cave is actually not so deep underground, but > goes a long distance down flow down the mountain. > > jtml > > On 2/12/22 3:21 PM, 'Mary Thiesse' via Pajarito Grotto wrote: > > Lee Skinner shared this earlier and I thought I would pass it on to > Pajarito grotto as well. Interesting depth comparisons. > > > > Mary > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS> > > Begin forwarded message: > > On Saturday, February 12, 2022, 11:45 AM, Lee H. Skinner > <skin...@thuntek.net> <skin...@thuntek.net> wrote: > > An interesting video about underground places -- lots of caves mentioned. > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRBYk2FO5QE > > > > Lee > >
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