---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <texascavers-digest-h...@texascavers.com>
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: 2008/12/12
Subject: texascavers Digest 13 Dec 2008 02:30:38 -0000 Issue 668
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
texascavers Digest 13 Dec 2008 02:30:38 -0000 Issue 668
Topics (messages 9675 through 9682):
unorganized diatribe
9675 by: William H. Russell
9676 by: Diana Tomchick
county cavers
9677 by: Mixon Bill
9678 by: Bill Bentley-Webmail
On the value of outreach
9679 by: Thomas Sitch
9680 by: Bill Bentley-Webmail
Barton Springs Edwards Aquifer District Declares Critical Stage Drought
9681 by: Jules Jenkins
Thomas - UT Grotto Newbie Herder
9682 by: Terri Sprouse
Administrivia:
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "William H. Russell" <whruss...@gmail.com>
To: <texascavers@texascavers.com>
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:39:31 -0600
Subject: unorganized diatribe
Ediger has long thought there are large numbers of unknown
"cavers" that can be brought into organized caving, with a benefit
both to both groups. This has not proved to be the case. For many
years Ediger preached that we should reach out to the unorganized by
including them in the TSA weather they knew it or not. To do this he
watered down the membership requirements of the TSA to essentially
anyone who had thought about going into a cave. The inability of the
TSA to define their membership, collect dues, and perform other
essential functions finally made the TSA abandon this idea.
Curiosity is a basic human attribute, and across Texas many
people who hear about a local cave will go out to explore. They
aren't cavers, they are just curious. The vast majority have no
interest in spending time learning more about caves, joining a grotto,
or anything else that would make them a caver. A very few do find
caves to be of special interest, and thanks to the internet can
quickly and easily find out about organized caving. And, organized
caving should be ready to welcome them. This is organized caving's
obligation to the unorganized.
To spend money, time and resources to attempt to reach everyone who
has an even fleeting interest in caves will not benefit organized
cavers or anyone else. Most people, even in rural areas, are slightly
interested in many things. They go to the movies, but do not want to
join a film club. They take pictures, but do not want to join a
photography club. To be a caver one should have a special interest in
caves. These are the people who will train the new generation of
cavers and carry on the traditions of caving. These are the people
who will keep caving from becoming an "introverted little clique."
Ediger needs to realize that there is not "a much larger number of
Texas cavers" that can be organized into productive members of the
TSA. If we want to be worthy of the idea of organized caving, we need
to welcome and encourage the new cavers that come forward. I think
this will provide enough challenge to these who actually want to "get
somewhere."
Bill Russell
--
William Hart Russell
4806 Red River Street
Austin, TX 78751
H: 512-453-4774 (messages)
CELL: 512-940-8336
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Diana Tomchick <diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu>
To: William H. Russell <whruss...@gmail.com>
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 14:04:53 -0600
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] unorganized diatribe
What Bill states here agrees with the experience of the DFW grotto
officers over the last few years. As Secretary/Newsletter Editor, I
send (free of charge) monthly electronic newsletters out to both
members and anyone else who expresses interest. This includes people
on CaveTex, visitors to grotto meetings and people who contact me via
email who express interest in caving and the grotto. We do this in
hopes of convincing some of these people to continue to be interested
in caving, going caving with us, attending meetings or caving events,
etc.
The number of people that we get that actually continue to express any
interest in any of these activities is extremely small. Not that
there's anything wrong with that; if a person isn't interested enough
to actually go on a wild caving trip somewhere, then they probably
aren't going to want to go to the trouble and expense to obtain the
gear to become an organized caver. I tend to think of my efforts as
educational, in some aspect. As Bill said, people are curious, and by
giving them a free newsletter or two, that seems to satisfy most
people. No sense in being overly secretive and hiding what it means to
be a caver. But expecting everyone who expresses some interest in the
activity to actually want to do it (and do it in an organized way) is
hopelessly optimistic, whether the activity is caving or mountain
biking or scrapbooking.
Diana
On Dec 12, 2008, at 1:39 PM, William H. Russell wrote:
> Ediger has long thought there are large numbers of unknown "cavers"
> that can be brought into organized caving, with a benefit both to both
> groups. This has not proved to be the case. For many years Ediger preached
> that we should reach out to the unorganized by including them in the TSA
> weather they knew it or not. To do this he watered down the membership
> requirements of the TSA to essentially anyone who had thought about going
> into a cave. The inability of the TSA to define their membership, collect
> dues, and perform other essential functions finally made the TSA abandon this
> idea.
> Curiosity is a basic human attribute, and across Texas many people who
> hear about a local cave will go out to explore. They aren't cavers, they are
> just curious. The vast majority have no interest in spending time learning
> more about caves, joining a grotto, or anything else that would make them a
> caver. A very few do find caves to be of special interest, and thanks to the
> internet can quickly and easily find out about organized caving. And,
> organized caving should be ready to welcome them. This is organized caving's
> obligation to the unorganized.
> To spend money, time and resources to attempt to reach everyone who has an
> even fleeting interest in caves will not benefit organized cavers or anyone
> else. Most people, even in rural areas, are slightly interested in many
> things. They go to the movies, but do not want to join a film club. They
> take pictures, but do not want to join a photography club. To be a caver one
> should have a special interest in caves. These are the people who will train
> the new generation of cavers and carry on the traditions of caving. These
> are the people who will keep caving from becoming an "introverted little
> clique."
> Ediger needs to realize that there is not "a much larger number of Texas
> cavers" that can be organized into productive members of the TSA. If we want
> to be worthy of the idea of organized caving, we need to welcome and
> encourage the new cavers that come forward. I think this will provide enough
> challenge to these who actually want to "get somewhere."
> Bill Russell
>
>
> --
> William Hart Russell
> 4806 Red River Street
> Austin, TX 78751
> H: 512-453-4774 (messages)
> CELL: 512-940-8336
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com>
To: Cavers Texas <texascavers@texascavers.com>
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 14:56:19 -0600
Subject: county cavers
There's an expression for the problem people have just pointed out
with Ediger's outreach idea. "You can lead a horse to water but you
can't make him drink." What fraction of people who show up at one or
two grotto meetings do we ever see again? And at least the UT Grotto
is large enough that there should be a clique for anyone really
interested.
A lot of the "county cavers" are just high-school students out for a
bit of adventure with their buddies. Next week they'll be floating
down a river and the week after that trying not to die rock climbing.
(The frustrating thing to me is that you know the owner's son and his
buddies can go into that closed cave any time they want to.) Or
they're a couple of good ol' boys who just thought they'd check out
that hole on Joe's place, for want of anything better to do that day.
As long as we do make an effort to provide some training and beginners
trips for those who track us down, I don't see what more we can do.
I'm sure there are a few real cavers who just aren't joiners, but
there's not much we can do about it. I know one guy who was a
hard-core and very active caver and grotto member for thirty years and
would never join the NSS. Finally he did, but only because he hooked
up with a woman who insisted on dragging him to NSS
conventions.--Mixon
----------------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Bill Bentley-Webmail <ca...@caver.net>
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:08:51 -0600
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] county cavers
Might be a good time to explain the benefits of joing the NSS. What is
in it for me?
Quoting Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com>:
> There's an expression for the problem people have just pointed out with
> Ediger's outreach idea. <snip>
<
<end snip>
< I know one guy who was a hard-core
>
> and very active caver and grotto member for thirty years and would
> never join the NSS. Finally he did, but only because he hooked up with
> a woman who insisted on dragging him to NSS conventions.--Mixon
> ----------------------------------------------
> You may "reply" to the address this message
> came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
> AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Thomas Sitch <dreadfl...@yahoo.com>
To: Cavers Texas <texascavers@texascavers.com>
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:54:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: On the value of outreach
Okay, a little background. I've been caving since I was 7 or 8, when
my dad and brother and I explored lava tubes we found by the road or
sea caves along the coast in California. Around age twelve I
convinced my dad to join the NSS, and we became part of the SoCal
Grotto that met at CalTech in Pasadena. I've been a casual (but
registered) caver ever since, some 20 years now.
Please understand that what follows is the most constructive of
criticism. I love cavers, I enjoy hanging out with my fellow cavers,
and many of the best adventures I've had or seen have been part of
going to, returning from, or exploring a cave. I also love grotto
meetings: I've seen slide shows of cavers treed by jaguars (looking
down), stalactites shot through with silver and precious minerals, and
ancient caves in the Philippines with aboriginal dugout coffins piled
up.
I (very courteously) disagree with Mixon's point that there's a clique
for everybody. That's not really how it looks from the outside.
It was very hard to "break in" and feel welcome at the UT Grotto.
There were some people who went out of the way to do so (such as Jean,
or Aimee) and I will always feel incredible gratitude to them for
that. Now I know lots of people and count many friends and it's a
good time, but I see a lot of new people show up and sit largely
excluded. Despite the fact that UT is the largest public university
in the country, I believe our current number of actual current
students can be counted on two hands; maybe just one.
We can do better than that.
Cavers have a common frame of reference. We've had adventures
together, and that makes a camaraderie not unlike being old war
buddies. That makes it very comfortable to sit with your friends and
talk about old or new trips, and uncomfortable to look to new faces.
Also, some cavers have very strong views on politics and religion, and
this makes for a "self selecting group," since some people feel
unwelcome. As much as I think sacrifices to Oztotl should be
mandatory*, being respectful of a diverse set of viewpoints is a
better way to go.
The tough stick it out, sure. Once people go on trips and gain the
trust of the Old Guard they, too, have a common frame of reference.
But we lose a lot of good people long before that, and we lose the
other good people that they would refer to the world of the dedicated
adventuring caver.
My point here is that for the good of the caving community we should
do more to seek out and welcome new blood. If everyone makes an
effort – a conscious effort- to engage new people, we'll grow and be
better for it as a community.
Best Regards,
~~Thomas
* Joking
--- On Fri, 12/12/08, Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
From: Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com>
Subject: [Texascavers] county cavers
To: "Cavers Texas" <texascavers@texascavers.com>
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 2:56 PM
There's an expression for the problem people have just pointed out with
Ediger's outreach idea. "You can lead a horse to water but you
can't make him drink." What fraction of people who show up at one or
two grotto meetings do we ever see again? And at least the UT Grotto is large
enough that there should be a clique for anyone really interested.
A lot of the "county cavers" are just high-school students out for a
bit of adventure with their buddies. Next week they'll be floating down a
river and the week after that trying not to die rock climbing. (The frustrating
thing to me is that you know the owner's son and his buddies can go into
that closed cave any time they want to.) Or they're a couple of good ol'
boys who just thought they'd check out that hole on Joe's place, for
want of anything better to do that day. As long as we do make an effort to
provide some training and beginners trips for those who track us down, I
don't see what more we can do.
I'm sure there are a few real cavers who just aren't joiners, but
there's not much we can do about it. I know one guy who was a hard-core and
very active caver and grotto member for thirty years and would never join the
NSS. Finally he did, but only because he hooked up with a woman who insisted on
dragging him to NSS conventions.--Mixon
----------------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Bill Bentley" <ca...@caver.net>
To: "Cavers Texas" <texascavers@texascavers.com>
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 18:48:54 -0600
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] On the value of outreach
Thomas,
On a recent cave trip we had some new younger members help us in
a cave dig. (They joined the PBSS Grotto later), They not only made me
feel young through their exuberance, but I thought one of them was
going to fall on the ground and start hollering "we're not worthy"!.
It made me feel weird to have young cavers admiring me because I have
been caving for a long while.
I am glad to see the new young people get interested in caving. I
have been a member of the NSS since 1981. I can honestly say that the
PBSS has always made all new comers feel welcome no matter what their
experience level is, or their age. We have never had the luxury of so
many members that anyone could ever be selective or splinter off into
niche groups. I also think it is important that every caver go on a
cave trip at least once with a group of cavers that he doesn't know or
just met. It can give you a better perspective of how other groups go
caving. From the tone of the trip, expertise, to the techniques used,
and to how people interact. I have done this before and besides being
interesting, it can be fun.
I know what you mean about feeling out of place in a different
group. I just persevered and eventually as they say..."They have no
choice but to accept you, cause you won't go away"
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Thomas Sitch
To: Cavers Texas
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 5:54 PM
Subject: [Texascavers] On the value of outreach
Okay, a little background. I've been caving since I was 7 or 8, when
my dad and brother and I explored lava tubes we found by the road or
sea caves along the coast in California. Around age twelve I
convinced my dad to join the NSS, and we became part of the SoCal
Grotto that met at CalTech in Pasadena. I've been a casual (but
registered) caver ever since, some 20 years now.
Please understand that what follows is the most constructive of
criticism. I love cavers, I enjoy hanging out with my fellow cavers,
and many of the best adventures I've had or seen have been part of
going to, returning from, or exploring a cave. I also love grotto
meetings: I've seen slide shows of cavers treed by jaguars (looking
down), stalactites shot through with silver and precious minerals, and
ancient caves in the Philippines with aboriginal dugout coffins piled
up.
I (very courteously) disagree with Mixon's point that there's a clique
for everybody. That's not really how it looks from the outside.
It was very hard to "break in" and feel welcome at the UT Grotto.
There were some people who went out of the way to do so (such as Jean,
or Aimee) and I will always feel incredible gratitude to them for
that. Now I know lots of people and count many friends and it's a
good time, but I see a lot of new people show up and sit largely
excluded. Despite the fact that UT is the largest public university
in the country, I believe our current number of actual current
students can be counted on two hands; maybe just one.
We can do better than that.
Cavers have a common frame of reference. We've had adventures
together, and that makes a camaraderie not unlike being old war
buddies. That makes it very comfortable to sit with your friends and
talk about old or new trips, and uncomfortable to look to new faces.
Also, some cavers have very strong views on politics and religion, and
this makes for a "self selecting group," since some people feel
unwelcome. As much as I think sacrifices to Oztotl should be
mandatory*, being respectful of a diverse set of viewpoints is a
better way to go.
The tough stick it out, sure. Once people go on trips and gain the
trust of the Old Guard they, too, have a common frame of reference.
But we lose a lot of good people long before that, and we lose the
other good people that they would refer to the world of the dedicated
adventuring caver.
My point here is that for the good of the caving community we should
do more to seek out and welcome new blood. If everyone makes an
effort – a conscious effort- to engage new people, we'll grow and be
better for it as a community.
Best Regards,
~~Thomas
* Joking
--- On Fri, 12/12/08, Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
From: Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com>
Subject: [Texascavers] county cavers
To: "Cavers Texas" <texascavers@texascavers.com>
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 2:56 PM
There's an expression for the problem people have just pointed out with
Ediger's outreach idea. "You can lead a horse to water but you
can't make him drink." What fraction of people who show up at one or
two grotto meetings do we ever see again? And at least the UT Grotto is large
enough that there should be a clique for anyone really interested.
A lot of the "county cavers" are just high-school students out for a
bit of adventure with their buddies. Next week they'll be floating down a
river and the week after that trying not to die rock climbing. (The frustrating
thing to me is that you know the owner's son and his buddies can go into
that closed cave any time they want to.) Or they're a couple of good ol'
boys who just thought they'd check out that hole on Joe's place, for
want of anything better to do that day. As long as we do make an effort to
provide some training and beginners trips for those who track us down, I
don't see what more we can do.
I'm sure there are a few real cavers who just aren't joiners, but
there's not much we can do about it. I know one guy who was a hard-core and
very active caver and grotto member for thirty years and would never join the
NSS. Finally he did, but only because he hooked up with a woman who insisted on
dragging him to NSS conventions.--Mixon
----------------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Jules Jenkins <julesje...@yahoo.com>
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 17:05:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Barton Springs Edwards Aquifer District Declares Critical Stage Drought
FYI
Aquifer District Declares Critical Stage Drought for Only the Second
Time in Twenty-One Years
The Barton Springs/Edwards Aquifer Conservation District's Board of
Directors declared a Critical Stage Drought for the groundwater
resources in the District's jurisdiction, including the heavily used
Barton Springs segment of the Edwards Aquifer, at its regular board
meeting on Thursday, December 11. The declaration will require a 30%
mandatory reduction in the authorized monthly use from all its
permittees, which will in turn affect some 60,000 groundwater users,
mostly in southern Travis and northern Hays County. This is only the
second time in the District's 21-year history that a declaration of
this kind has been issued.
This year was the fourth driest on record. Austin's Camp Mabry
received around 15 inches of rain, a 17-inch deficit from average, and
the contributing watersheds of the aquifer received even less. In
addition, the summer of 2008 turned out to be one of the hottest on
record, increasing the demand for groundwater. Consequently, on June
23, 2008, the District's Board of Directors declared an Alarm Stage
Drought, which required permittees to implement steps in their User
Drought Contingency Plans to achieve a mandatory 20% reduction in
monthly usage from their authorized levels.
While many exempt well owners, permittees, and their customers have
made concerted attempts to achieve these reductions, water levels in
the aquifer have continued to decline. In early December, the ten-day
average discharge at Barton Springs fell below its critical level of
20 cubic feet per second (cfs) and the water level in the Lovelady
Drought Indicator Well fell below its critical level of 191.8 feet
(either of those conditions would have been sufficient for the Board
to consider a Critical Stage declaration) . Unfortunately,
meteorological forecasts by the National Weather Service's Climate
Prediction Center indicate that dry conditions may persist through
much of 2009.
Existing groundwater users in the District will now have to cut back
their monthly water use another 10% and heed more stringent
restrictions. Their water suppliers (and/or the District) will inform
end-users as to what obligations they must follow under Critical Stage
Drought. Generally, groundwater users will be limited only to water
use for essential (indoor) demands needed to preserve health and
safety with a very minor allocation provided for some non-essential
(outdoor) water uses such as maintaining small lawn areas for fire
protection and foundation damage prevention. The District's staff is
committed to ensuring that such restrictions are as equitable as
possible and will be taking steps during drought to guarantee that:
· New water withdrawals will not be authorized by permit
during this drought;
· The restrictions included in the User Drought Contingency
Plans that are part of every groundwater use permit will be
aggressively enforced; and
· Rules that prohibit use by end users who are using water in
a wasteful fashion will be enforced.
The District asks all of its constituents to continue their water
conservation measures and be even better stewards of an increasingly
scarce resource. A list of actions to save water in and around the
home or office and the hydrographs for various monitor wells are
available on the District's website at www.bseacd.org. With continued
lack of significant rainfall and high rates of pumping, water levels
could drop to the extent that some wells could go dry and flow from
Barton Springs could eventually decrease to the point where
ecological, recreational, and aesthetic uses of Barton Springs would
be harmed. The aquifer can no longer afford anything other than
minimal use, and that may be the situation for many, many more months.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Terri Sprouse <posada...@yahoo.com>
To: Cavers Texas <texascavers@texascavers.com>, dreadfl...@yahoo.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 18:30:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Thomas - UT Grotto Newbie Herder
Thomas,
Sounds like you just volunteered to take over the role of Newbie
Herder for the grotto. Should we vote on it at the next meeting?
I agree, the reality is that the best way to get to know cavers is to
go on a caving trip with them. I wonder how many people who come to
the grotto meeting have not been on a caving trip. We need a point
person for the UT Grotto to follow-up with our newbies to ensure that
they GET ON A TRIP, even if its just locally to Whirlpool. That is
really what opens the door, socially. After a series of training
trips, most newbies either bond with other cavers, or they won't. It's
up to them.
Not that the rest of us won't have to make an effort too but, in
addition, I think we could really use someone who is designated to
follow-up - to absolutely make sure that the invitation (and possibly
follow-up invitations) to go on trips is personally made to each of
the newbies.
Could that person be you, Thomas?
--- On Fri, 12/12/08, Thomas Sitch <dreadfl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> It was very hard to "break in" and feel welcome at the
> UT Grotto. There were some people who went out of the way
> to do so (such as Jean, or Aimee) and I will always feel
> incredible gratitude to them for that. Now I know lots of
> people and count many friends and it's a good time, but I
> see a lot of new people show up and sit largely excluded.
>
<snip>
>
> The tough stick it out, sure. Once people go on trips and
> gain the trust of the Old Guard they, too, have a common
> frame of reference. But we lose a lot of good people long
> before that, and we lose the other good people that they
> would refer to the world of the dedicated adventuring caver.
>
> My point here is that for the good of the caving community
> we should do more to seek out and welcome new blood. If
> everyone makes an effort – a conscious effort- to engage
> new people, we'll grow and be better for it as a
> community.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> ~~Thomas
>
