texascavers Digest 11 Jun 2009 14:07:14 -0000 Issue 776
Topics (messages 10933 through 10954):
Re: Best Use of 'These Awful Movies
10933 by: Brian Riordan
10934 by: kego3.sbcglobal.net
10938 by: Louise Power
10946 by: Lyndon Tiu
flares in caves: just say NO
10935 by: Jim Kennedy
10936 by: Stefan Creaser
10937 by: Brian Riordan
10939 by: kego3.sbcglobal.net
10944 by: S S
Re: Best Use of "These Awful Movies
10940 by: Louise Power
Re: DVD Review - The Cavern ( part 1 of review )
10941 by: Lyndon Tiu
bleaching rope...
10942 by: David Ochel
bright lights and flares
10943 by: David
Are any of you twittering?
10945 by: David
10948 by: Sheryl Rieck
10949 by: Lyndon Tiu
Figure-8 not proper for caving?
10947 by: Lyndon Tiu
10950 by: Fofo
10951 by: Lyndon Tiu
10952 by: Brian Riordan
10954 by: DJ Walker
Re: Figure-8 not proper for caving? (fwd)
10953 by: Lyndon Tiu
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--- Begin Message ---
Bustamante is EXACTLY what I had in mind. Not, say... whirlpool.
:)
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 2:33 PM, <ke...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Damn Crackberry. "Md" should have read "Mn"...
> ------Original Message------
> From: AAA Home
> To: Lyndon Tiu
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> ReplyTo: AAA Home
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Best Use of 'These Awful Movies
> Sent: Jun 10, 2009 1:30 PM
>
> Before flashbulbs appeared on the scene magnesium flares were the main (and
> best) light source for cave photography. Long before my time, of course (I
> started caving in 1975), but I've been on at least two trips where we used Md
> flares for photos. As Alan said - it's pretty impressive!
>
> Keith
> ------Original Message------
> From: Lyndon Tiu
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> ReplyTo: Lyndon Tiu
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Best Use of 'These Awful Movies
> Sent: Jun 10, 2009 1:21 PM
>
> On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:16:00 -0500 riordan.br...@gmail.com wrote:
>> And many of those flares will burn when completely submerged in
>> water.... OOoooo I am definitely bringing flares next time- the
>> photography possibilities alone!
>
> Hmmm, interesting.
>
> Why I havn't seen one tells me either no one has tried or the last one who
> tried choked on the smoke and did not get a good shot or got a good shot of a
> lot of smoke and no cave.
>
> I wonder what the flare smoke contains? Carcinogens, CO2, CO, Ozone, etc ?
>
> I'd hate to be in a cave when someone lights one of these up and we would
> choke on the smoke.
>
> --
> Lyndon Tiu
>
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>
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
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> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
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Ok...maybe it's my fingers and not the crackberry after all. The auto-fill
thing is apparently quite a bit smarter than I am!
;)
------Original Message------
From: Lyndon Tiu
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
ReplyTo: Lyndon Tiu
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Best Use of 'These Awful Movies
Sent: Jun 10, 2009 1:35 PM
On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:33:38 0000 ke...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
> Damn Crackberry. "Md" should have read "Mn"...
Is it Manganese (Mn) or Magnesium (Mg)?
--
Lyndon Tiu
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Well, then, just bring a scented candle from Bath and Body Works.
Louise
> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:21:43 -0700
> From: l...@alumni.sfu.ca
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Best Use of 'These Awful Movies
>
> On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:16:00 -0500 riordan.br...@gmail.com wrote:
> > And many of those flares will burn when completely submerged in
> > water.... OOoooo I am definitely bringing flares next time- the
> > photography possibilities alone!
>
> Hmmm, interesting.
>
> Why I havn't seen one tells me either no one has tried or the last one who
> tried choked on the smoke and did not get a good shot or got a good shot of a
> lot of smoke and no cave.
>
> I wonder what the flare smoke contains? Carcinogens, CO2, CO, Ozone, etc ?
>
> I'd hate to be in a cave when someone lights one of these up and we would
> choke on the smoke.
>
> --
> Lyndon Tiu
>
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On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:56:57 -0500 riordan.br...@gmail.com wrote:
> So I can enjoy the movies more, can
> someone with an impressive caving title contact Hollywood and offer
> themselves as a caving consultant?
>
"The Cave" producers hired this company called "Karst Productions" out of
Florida for their underwater cave shooting. They look and sound like pros who
know what they are doing. But I betcha some Hollywood exec overruled a lot of
their recommendations as to how real cavers/divers do their thing inside a cave.
" ... Not dramatic enough, not sexy enough, not cool enough. They need to do
this in a cave instead ... "
--
Lyndon Tiu
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--- Begin Message ---
Don't do it! Flares are incredibly harmful to cave life, as well as
cavers. Also don't burn magnesium flares in caves either. Sure, they
are bright and cool (oooo, pretty colors!), but go completely against
the modern "leave no trace" ethics we promote. Keep those things as
simple historic and cinematic footnotes, please!
-- Crash, concerned cave biologist
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What does it matter, all the bats'll be dead soon anyway? ;-)
S.
From: Jim Kennedy [mailto:jkenn...@batcon.org]
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 3:09 PM
To: CaveTex
Subject: [Texascavers] flares in caves: just say NO
Don't do it! Flares are incredibly harmful to cave life, as well as
cavers. Also don't burn magnesium flares in caves either. Sure, they
are bright and cool (oooo, pretty colors!), but go completely against
the modern "leave no trace" ethics we promote. Keep those things as
simple historic and cinematic footnotes, please!
-- Crash, concerned cave biologist
Confidentiality Note: This email and any attachment to it are
confidential and protected by law and intended for the use of the
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you
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"It's better to ask for forgiveness than for permission"... Sigh.
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Jim Kennedy<jkenn...@batcon.org> wrote:
> Don’t do it! Flares are incredibly harmful to cave life, as well as
> cavers. Also don’t burn magnesium flares in caves either. Sure, they are
> bright and cool (oooo, pretty colors!), but go completely against the modern
> “leave no trace” ethics we promote. Keep those things as simple historic
> and cinematic footnotes, please!
>
> -- Crash, concerned cave biologist
>
> Confidentiality Note: This email and any attachment to it are confidential
> and protected by law and intended for the use of the individual(s) or entity
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> error, please notify the sender via return email and delete it completely
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> destroy it immediately. Thank you
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For the record, the last of the two flare trips I was on was over 20 years ago.
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: "Jim Kennedy" <jkenn...@batcon.org>
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:09:18
To: CaveTex<texascavers@texascavers.com>
Subject: [Texascavers] flares in caves: just say NO
Don't do it! Flares are incredibly harmful to cave life, as well as
cavers. Also don't burn magnesium flares in caves either. Sure, they
are bright and cool (oooo, pretty colors!), but go completely against
the modern "leave no trace" ethics we promote. Keep those things as
simple historic and cinematic footnotes, please!
-- Crash, concerned cave biologist
Confidentiality Note: This email and any attachment to it are
confidential and protected by law and intended for the use of the
individual(s) or entity named on the email. If the reader of this
message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
dissemination or distribution of this communication is prohibited. If
you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender
via return email and delete it completely from your email system. If you
have printed a copy of the email, please destroy it immediately. Thank
you
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I don't think this requires any discouragement as After 2 minutes of breathing
sulphur fumes that burn the eyes and lungs and the billowing smoke that will
obscure most of the passage you wont use another one.
> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:22:40 -0500
> From: riordan.br...@gmail.com
> To: jkenn...@batcon.org
> CC: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] flares in caves: just say NO
>
> "It's better to ask for forgiveness than for permission"... Sigh.
>
> On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Jim Kennedy<jkenn...@batcon.org> wrote:
> > Don’t do it! Flares are incredibly harmful to cave life, as well as
> > cavers. Also don’t burn magnesium flares in caves either. Sure, they are
> > bright and cool (oooo, pretty colors!), but go completely against the modern
> > “leave no trace” ethics we promote. Keep those things as simple historic
> > and cinematic footnotes, please!
> >
> > -- Crash, concerned cave biologist
> >
> > Confidentiality Note: This email and any attachment to it are confidential
> > and protected by law and intended for the use of the individual(s) or entity
> > named on the email. If the reader of this message is not the intended
> > recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination or distribution of
> > this communication is prohibited. If you have received this communication in
> > error, please notify the sender via return email and delete it completely
> > from your email system. If you have printed a copy of the email, please
> > destroy it immediately. Thank you
>
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Linda, I say the best use of "These Awful Movies" is to gather a bunch of them
together and have an "Awful Cave Movie Film Festival" at the Oldtimers. There
are certainly enough in existence that if two or three are shown a year, you
could start a tradition. Don't forget the popcorn and beer!!!
Louise
From: lkpa...@sbcglobal.net
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:37:56 -0500
Subject: [Texascavers] Best Use of "These Awful Movies
What you need to do is compile a list of the stupidest quotes from these bad
movies.
Then use the quotes on cave trips –much more entertaining than watching the
movies!!!
From: tbsam...@verizon.net [mailto:tbsam...@verizon.net]
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:18 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] DVD Review - The Cavern ( part 1 of review )
Hollywood makes many bad movies. I wish there was a caving Bollywood movie. Bad
Bollywood is much better than mediocre Hollywood.
T.
Jun 10, 2009 11:05:46 AM, dlocklea...@gmail.com wrote:
You all remember the movies, "The Cave" and "The Descent,"
but do you remember the one called, "The Cavern" ?
Why did Hollywood make 3 very crappy movies about
caving within a year of each other. ( If they had
combined their financial resources and made one movie,
it would have probably been watchable. )
http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeVideoArt/Large/68/305968.jpg
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm745905408/tt0451262
I found the DVD of "The Cavern" at Half-Price Books. I don't
remember ever hearing about this movie, but it must have been
that it was rumored to be so bad, that I did not go see it.
The directors of this movie seemed to try harder to make it
more about caving than the other two. However, the audience
was never given an opportunity to connect with the cavers. The
cavers seem like a crew assembled for a Survivor TV show. I
didn't believe any caver on the group deserved to be on this
so-called important expedition, especially the trip leader.
The cave was supposedly in a remote area of Kazakhkstan, however,
there was no beautiful cinematography to make the audience appreciate
the landscape. The cave entrance and passage were not impressive at all.
The directors tried to make the audience feel sorry for the team as they
had lost a colleague on a previous trip to Peru. She had washed away
in a sump and was never seen again. I did not like the way they
played this part into the story.
There was one sex scene in the cave entrance, but it was meant to lead
to the horror plot and not to be erotic. This scene could have
been done completely
different like a love scene in "Love in the Time of Cholera," and it
could have played out
very well. Instead the horror part was cheezy and stupid. The
directors lost
an opportunity for the audience to bond with these 2 cavers.
The cavers tried to appear well organized. But any caver watching
it would see
a bunch of newbie thrillseekers. They immediately find a hole in
the floor of the
cave passage that is a pit leading to a lower level. They never
see on the cave
floor any sign of the cave being used by animals or some creature,
like footprints,
or bones. They all bop the pit in a matter of seconds, but it is
only about 30 meters
deep. I think the directors really lost credibility by this time
of the movie. I don't
know what kind of rappelling device the trip leader used. It was
larger than a Petzl Stop and was at the
face level of him. He squeezed it to make it descend like a Petzl.
( Some Hollywood gadget ? )
Everybody else appeared to use a rock-climbers tiny Figure-8. ( I
think most caver's would agree that this
type of Figure-8 is not proper vertical equipment for caving. )
Most of them were using cheap internal frame backpacks on their backs
to haul their
gear, and most of these packs appeared to be half-empty.
They all had 2 lights on their helmet. But in an effort to look
cool, they used both
lights at the same time, even while their batteries were nearly
depleted and they were
hopelessly trapped in a cave with a beast.
Immediately their cable-operated telephones did not work.
Immediately one of their
buddies was not in the room at the bottom of the pit. He seemed to
vanish from thin
air. They followed a large blood trail to him. His intestines
were hanging out
and he was gasping for air. The surface crewman was dissected by the
creature and thrown with the rope into the pit.
The rest of the movie was like the Blair Witch Project. They
eventually shot the
creature which they thought appeared to be a half-bear/half wolf, but
we didn't see
the creature then. It survived several gun shots in the cave only
to kill the shooter.
( How many cave trips carry a semi-automatic pistol into the cave ? )
They said
in Kazakhstan, it was necessary, so I will buy that.
So we are down to 3 cavers trapped in what appears to be a small cave with only
a few passages barely big enough to stoop walk. ( But how does the creature
get down there if there is no passage, and how does such a large creature move
so quietly in the cave and in the dark ).
Then 2 girls are left alone to fend for themselves with almost no
light. They
find a crawlway leading to sunlight. The audience thinks these 2 girls are
going to live.
This is when the movie goes from bad to just plain ignorant, and trashy.
The girls get caught, but for some reason unknown to the audience, they faint
and wake up in a room with a campfire and a door sealed by a large rock.
They are naked, but covered in a bear rug. They have no physical signs
of being kidnapped by a beast.
There is meat roasting on a skewer above the fire, and the girls suddenly
for no reason become savagely hungry and start eating the meat like they
have not eaten in weeks. They soon realize it was their trip leader friend,
and begin to vomit in a way that most of the audience wants to vomit.
They explore the room, and realize that some human occupies it and that
he was a child survivor of some sort of Russian plane crash back in the 80's.
The creature returns. He appears to be some sort of cave-man wearing
a cave-bear skull for a mask. He grunts and takes of his mask. He
studies the girls. He decides to spear one of them to a bloody death.
And then he apparently begins to rape the other one, as the movie
ends in her bloody covered face screaming.
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2690292992/tt0451262
The worst movie ending I have ever seen.
Nothing about the creature was believable.
The movie audience will not learn anything positive about caving.
They will feel cavers are stupid for entering caves. They will
feel cavers are boring people with no lives.
Maybe the morale to the story was to tell someone where you
are going caving and to have a surface support group on your
expedition. But they still would have all been eaten by the
caveman.
Here is a web-review that seems to agree with me that the movie
sucked.
http://www.horror.com/php/article-1309-1.html
David Locklear
caver in Fort Bend County
Ref:
Here is a photo of the trip leader, shortly before he was roasted
on the skewer.
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2742394112/tt0451262
http://www.netflix.com/Movie/The_Cavern/70051025
https://www.hotmoviesale.com/store/productView.aspx?idProduct=22874&ec=1&ProdId=29
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tbsam...@verizon.net wrote:
I wish there was a caving Bollywood
movie.
How does that work?
At the end of the movie, all the cavers and cave critters come out and
dance in the cave?
--
Lyndon Tiu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
This is probably old news, but I just noticed that there is in fact a
statement from PMI available on repeated bleaching of (nylon) fibers:
http://www.pmirope.com/sites/374/pics/WNS%20and%20Rope%20Decontamination.pdf
They do *not* recommend it.
Cheers,
David
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--- Begin Message ---
The bright flares being discussed put out light in all directions like
a lantern.
I don't have anything that bright, especially in a lantern.
However, in the automotive section of Walmart is a new portable HID
light that would fit in a cave pack.
I haven't paid any attention to HID lights, because they don't seem practical
for caving. They are spot-lights, they are very expensive, the batteries
only last less than an hour, and they are heavy. I presume the
filament is fragile if you
drop it.
However, it would be handy to have one in the car on an off-road trip.
In Bustamante Canyon,
you could shine it up at the entrance of Precipicio at night, but I
can't think of a reason why
you would want to do that.
However, the HID technology is advancing and more HID products are on
the market now.
Here is one for $ 1,800 not including taxes:
http://www.tacticalleds.com/v/vspfiles/photos/POLARION-X1-9.jpg
I presume cave divers prefer HID flashlights to LED's, but that should change as
LED's become brighter, more efficient and less expensive. I don't
see that happening
with HIDs.
David Locklear
caver in Fort Bend County
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--- Begin Message ---
I had no idea what Twitter was until just about an hour ago.
At first, I saw no purpose of it.
I signed up just to see what all the hoopla was about.
I was immediately told that certain cavers in my e-mail
were twitterers, and that I could follow their tweets.
I did not know what that meant.
This looks like another time magnet. I gave up on
MySpace and only seldom look at the CaversOnline site
to see if I am missing anything important. I tried the blog thing
too, at blogspot.com.
Twitter looks confusing to me, and I don't see how
to send anyone a private message.
An organization like say a commercial cave could send out
daily news alerts. Like
"cave is closed today due to WNS."
Someone could be news reporter for ICS and
send out minute by minute updates of the events and
attendees and non-attendees could instantly view them.
That would be easier than the paper daily newsletter,
for the people that twitter on their portable gadgets.
For example,
"Caver Joe has lost his cell phone?"
"Buses delayed 30 minutes"
"Storm approaching."
I guess this service could come in handy during times
like you are about to have a baby, and want to give everybody
minute by minute details of your experience. Or maybe
while you are on vacation?
My hunch is that it will be a fad, because people will use it
to say ordinary things like "Today I took a bath."
David Locklear
caver in Fort Bend County
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--- Begin Message ---
I tweet, but not too often. I didn't really know what it was until I
started my new job. I don't really know what to say most of the time and
why would anyone care what I had for lunch? :-) I use Facebook quite a
lot.
Sheryl
-----Original Message-----
From: David [mailto:dlocklea...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:46 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Are any of you twittering?
I had no idea what Twitter was until just about an hour ago.
At first, I saw no purpose of it.
I signed up just to see what all the hoopla was about.
I was immediately told that certain cavers in my e-mail
were twitterers, and that I could follow their tweets.
I did not know what that meant.
This looks like another time magnet. I gave up on
MySpace and only seldom look at the CaversOnline site
to see if I am missing anything important. I tried the blog thing
too, at blogspot.com.
Twitter looks confusing to me, and I don't see how
to send anyone a private message.
An organization like say a commercial cave could send out
daily news alerts. Like
"cave is closed today due to WNS."
Someone could be news reporter for ICS and
send out minute by minute updates of the events and
attendees and non-attendees could instantly view them.
That would be easier than the paper daily newsletter,
for the people that twitter on their portable gadgets.
For example,
"Caver Joe has lost his cell phone?"
"Buses delayed 30 minutes"
"Storm approaching."
I guess this service could come in handy during times
like you are about to have a baby, and want to give everybody
minute by minute details of your experience. Or maybe
while you are on vacation?
My hunch is that it will be a fad, because people will use it
to say ordinary things like "Today I took a bath."
David Locklear
caver in Fort Bend County
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On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 08:15:34 -0500 shri...@cableone.net wrote:
> I tweet, but not too often. I didn't really know what it was until I
> started my new job. I don't really know what to say most of the time and
> why would anyone care what I had for lunch? :-) I use Facebook quite a
> lot.
You can connect your Facebook and Tweeter accounts so that when you tweet, your
Facebook status reflects your tweet.
You can also connect Tweeter to LinkedIn, MySpace, cell phone sms, email, blog,
etc.
--
Lyndon Tiu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:04:44 -0500 dlocklea...@gmail.com wrote:
> Everybody else appeared to use a rock-climbers tiny Figure-8. ( I
> think most caver's would agree that this
> type of Figure-8 is not proper vertical equipment for caving. )
Can someone on this list knowledgeable with vertical caving please explain to
me why so?
Thanks.
--
Lyndon Tiu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey, Lyndon.
It sounds like he is talking about the descender, not the knot.
The problem with the figure 8 descender is that it twists the rope.
Since caving rope is a bunch of parallel fibers encased in a sheath,
going through the figure 8 will impart a twist on these and in the end
(after repeated use with a figure of 8) you end up with a rope that
kinks by itself.
It is a compact and lightweight descender, convenient for nuisance
drops, on short pieces of rope for which you don't care much.
- Fofo
Lyndon Tiu wrote, on 11/6/09 6:12:
On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:04:44 -0500 dlocklea...@gmail.com wrote:
Everybody else appeared to use a rock-climbers tiny Figure-8. ( I
think most caver's would agree that this
type of Figure-8 is not proper vertical equipment for caving. )
Can someone on this list knowledgeable with vertical caving please explain to
me why so?
Thanks.
--
Lyndon Tiu
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On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 06:24:03 -0700 gonza...@msu.edu wrote:
> The problem with the figure 8 descender is that it twists the rope.
> Since caving rope is a bunch of parallel fibers encased in a sheath,
I am not that familiar with vertical gear. So I have a stupid question:
Are you saying caving rope is different from other types of rope used in
mountain climbing, etc?
Thanks for the reply Fofo. Much appreciated.
--
Lyndon Tiu
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Why would this be improper specifically for vertical caving? The
figure 8 will twist any rope. The only reason I can think of that any
caver would think it "improper" is because you can't lock it off. But
you can lock off a rescue figure 8... You also lock off Petzl's
"Pirana", which is very similar.
Figure 8:
http://s7ondemand1.scene7.com/is/image/MoosejawMB/10085396x1014941_zm?$product150$
Rescue 8: http://wesspur.com/images/product/300800-500.gif
Pirana: http://wesspur.com/images/product/d05-500.gif
Any thoughts?
-B
On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 8:24 AM, Fofo<gonza...@msu.edu> wrote:
> Hey, Lyndon.
>
> It sounds like he is talking about the descender, not the knot.
>
> The problem with the figure 8 descender is that it twists the rope. Since
> caving rope is a bunch of parallel fibers encased in a sheath, going through
> the figure 8 will impart a twist on these and in the end (after repeated use
> with a figure of 8) you end up with a rope that kinks by itself.
>
> It is a compact and lightweight descender, convenient for nuisance drops, on
> short pieces of rope for which you don't care much.
>
> - Fofo
>
> Lyndon Tiu wrote, on 11/6/09 6:12:
>>
>> On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:04:44 -0500 dlocklea...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> Everybody else appeared to use a rock-climbers tiny Figure-8. ( I
>>> think most caver's would agree that this
>>> type of Figure-8 is not proper vertical equipment for caving. )
>>
>>
>> Can someone on this list knowledgeable with vertical caving please explain
>> to me why so?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> --
>> Lyndon Tiu
>>
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>>
>
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The conditions would need to be defined more. Blanket statements like
this always concern me. Tell me more about what you intend to do with
it.
So, to minimally define some conditions and my respective answer/
opinion:
Are they good for vertical drops over a 100 feet?
I would be looking for a different device. Will they work? Yes. Are
they the best for the job? No. As Fofo said figure 8 descenders (eight
plate) tend to twist the rope. The longer the drop the more twist you
are going to get.
Are they good for drops under a 100 feet?
They can be. I would not take an eight plate specifically to do the
one nuisance drop between several bigger drops. If the vertical
section is one 50 footer right at the beginning or middle of my trip
and then I am taking my vert gear off for the rest of the trip, then
yes an eight plate might be a good idea. Its small, light weight, and
effective for these kind of jobs.
Are they good for vertical through trips where I am rappelling double
ropes and pulling them behind me?
I would say this is an excellent application for them. There are other
devices that will do this job also but an eight plate would work well
also.
Are they good for low angle slopes that require a rope but are not
pure vertical?
Absolutely. Another thing about an eight plate is they do not provide
just a whole lot of friction. So feeding rope into it when minimal
friction is needed is an attribute of the eight plate (but is also a
down fall).
Are they good for those trips were I am going to be taking a lot of
heavy stuff with me?
I might be looking for a different device. As stated above they don't
provide just a whole lot of friction. More specifically you cannot
vary the friction much on the fly. If you are accustom to rappelling
with it and now you add a lot of extra weight, be careful. You can
double wrap them but now you are stuck with a lot of friction and
potently have increased your rope twist issue.
Are they good for dirty gritty caves (oh, wait isn't that most of
them)? Maybe better defined as: Are they good for use with dirty
gritty ropes?
Probably not the best choice. Again, will it physically work? Yes. But
there are probably better devices out there. I have seen quite a few
eight plates with the anodizing wore through were the rope rubs. I
have even seen one where it was close to wearing all the way through
to the other side. It doesn't take much to wear one like that. Dirty
rope is hard on almost all gear that will be used in conjunction with
it.
I could probably go on for some time defining conditions and giving an
opinion. But I am sure you all have better things to do today.
Stay Safe,
DJ Walker
DJ Walker
PO Box 90146
Austin, TX 78709
512-751-6010
dj.wal...@mac.com
On Jun 11, 2009, at 8:24 AM, Fofo wrote:
Hey, Lyndon.
It sounds like he is talking about the descender, not the knot.
The problem with the figure 8 descender is that it twists the rope.
Since caving rope is a bunch of parallel fibers encased in a sheath,
going through the figure 8 will impart a twist on these and in the
end (after repeated use with a figure of 8) you end up with a rope
that kinks by itself.
It is a compact and lightweight descender, convenient for nuisance
drops, on short pieces of rope for which you don't care much.
- Fofo
Lyndon Tiu wrote, on 11/6/09 6:12:
On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:04:44 -0500 dlocklea...@gmail.com wrote:
Everybody else appeared to use a rock-climbers tiny Figure-8. ( I
think most caver's would agree that this
type of Figure-8 is not proper vertical equipment for caving. )
Can someone on this list knowledgeable with vertical caving please
explain to me why so?
Thanks.
--
Lyndon Tiu
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: speleoste...@tx.rr.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 13:29:33 +0000
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Figure-8 not proper for caving?
Three reasons I can readily think of: gritty caving ropes wear them
out fairly fast, whatever friction you start down the pit having is
all you're going to have - you can't add much more, and proper
technique with them has the rope around your back to your opposite
control hand, which in the confines of a cave can cause you to lose
your grasp of it.
They're okay on the surface when the sun's shining and you have your
pretty lyrcra tights on.
You can post this on CaveTex. I can't seem to with my Crackberry.
Bill
------Original Message------
From: Lyndon Tiu
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
ReplyTo: Lyndon Tiu
Sent: Jun 11, 2009 8:12 AM
Subject: [Texascavers] Figure-8 not proper for caving?
On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:04:44 -0500 dlocklea...@gmail.com wrote:
> Everybody else appeared to use a rock-climbers tiny Figure-8. ( I
> think most caver's would agree that this
> type of Figure-8 is not proper vertical equipment for caving. )
Can someone on this list knowledgeable with vertical caving please
explain to me why so?
Thanks.
--
Lyndon Tiu
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