texascavers Digest 17 Sep 2013 00:47:19 -0000 Issue 1847
Topics (messages 22710 through 22717):
Re: Solo
22710 by: Jim Kennedy
22711 by: Pete Lindsley
22715 by: James Jasek
solo cave sitting
22712 by: Mixon Bill
Forever on a Flowstone Mo�bius Strip
22713 by: Mixon Bill
Re: solo cave sitting-Barb MacLeod
22714 by: Logan McNatt
Re: solo caving, cave meditation
22716 by: Logan McNatt
Re: last message links
22717 by: Logan McNatt
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--- Begin Message ---
Personally, I think this would make a good essay for The TEXAS CAVER.
Jim
(Who has his own tales of solo caving, but chooses not to add fuel to the fire.
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 16, 2013, at 5:17 PM, "Bill Bentley" <ca...@caver.net> wrote:
> Well said...
>
> Bill
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: dirt...@comcast.net
> To: Cave Texas
> Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 5:10 PM
> Subject: [Texascavers] Solo
>
> Solo
>
> I have found this to be a rather interesting thread.
>
> James' question, which started all this, was " What is the general feeling
> regarding solo caving?"
>
> That seems to have morphed into "Why would anyone go caving alone?" And
> finally into folks actually describing some of their solo experiences.
>
> "Why would you cave alone?" has as many answers as there are cavers who have
> been caving by themselves.
>
> Usually, when I have been asked that question, it has been from someone who
> cannot comprehend (and usually appalled by) someone who would go off by
> themselves, especially in or into a cave.
>
> To those of you who have seriously asked why someone would cave alone, this
> is a sincere effort to reply. Not really to explain. Certainly not to
> justify.
>
> Hold this thought:
>
> What is unknown and therefore fearful for one person may be rather
> commonplace for another.
>
> Cavers, in particular, should understand this. Is there anyone reading this
> who has not been asked "Why do you DO that?" Caves are DARK. Caves are
> DANGEROUS. In the mud and the cold? There is no light in there!
>
> Those of us comfortable at being alone in a cave often do not talk about it,
> even when asked. There is that stigma attached by those who do not
> understand.
>
> There is a huge difference between attempting to answer the question and to
> encourage or invite someone to go off alone in a cave or to glorify caving by
> themselves. I feel that to encourage or glorify is unethical, dangerous, and
> perhaps even criminal. We are correct to advise others to cave in a group.
>
> There is also a big difference between the kind of experience beyond the
> Turtle Hurdles that Pete and I described and the kind of time spent by the
> Collins and Boons of the world. And by Jack Lehrberger or Bill Austin (the
> manager of Floyd Collins Crystal Cave in the 50s and 60s) and other "secret"
> cavers seeking discoveries that are "theirs", and theirs alone. The solo
> experiences described on this thread, more in line with what James was
> inquiring about, are of shorter duration and less technically demanding than
> really serious solo exploration of a major cave system. They are usually
> fun, at least when they start out.
>
> Sometimes there is a commercial interest. For some, it is the personal
> challenge: "I can do that!" (A little chest-pounding?) A few cavers are just
> uncomfortable around other people. Some have sought comfort from other
> pressures in life by hiding out somewhere comfortable for them - a few have
> found that spot in a cave.
>
> I can best speak from my own experiences. As a young geologist-mountaineer I
> became comfortable being alone in remote mountain and desert wilderness. I
> did not think I was driven by the desire to be alone. I wanted to go
> somewhere and see something particular and there was no one around with a
> similar interest. And I liked to explore. It was fun to be somewhere new
> and to see sights from an unusual perspective. I had learned the skills,
> possessed the equipment, and used forethought and planning. It became
> commonplace for me to be alone in the wilderness. I had a great time.
>
> I felt that I was at less risk there than I was when riding my bicycle down
> the streets of Laramie - or any town or city. Lew Bicking and I had a
> discussion about that, just the two of us (not quite alone), in the Guadalupe
> Mountains of New Mexico, shortly before he was killed on an eastern roadway.
>
> I remember standing, very alone, high in the Rocky Mountains, looking down
> into a bergschrund that seemed to drop downward forever, a blue-black slot
> into an icy Hell. "If the snow I am standing on gives way, no one will
> know what happened. No one has any idea where I am. I will simply
> disappear from the face of the Earth."
>
> I cautiously stepped back, for I have never been suicidal. At that time I
> was a very good climber, an experienced leader but a cut below the best. A
> climbing companion who was one of the best told me "You will never really be
> a REALLY fine climber unless you put your life on the line."
>
> I have never knowingly done so. I have enjoyed my climbing, caving, and
> other experiences. I now look back on a full and interesting life. I was not
> simply "lucky".
>
> I have spent days alone in the wilderness, the mountains, the desert, and
> many hours alone in caves. Quite often I started out above ground with no
> idea where, exactly, I was going to be, although I had a goal. Somebody
> usually knew, sort of. That would have narrowed it down, but the area might
> be 10 or 20 square miles. I remember finding a remote cave, and well back
> into it thinking that if I became injured or trapped there would not even be
> buzzards circling above to help others (or predators) locate me. An
> interesting thought that really did not bother me as I felt comfortable in my
> environment, with my equipment, and with my knowledge, which included
> knowledge of myself.
>
> Another thing I have considered is my responsibility to others. I realized
> long ago that if I did manage to disappear, others would probably expend
> considerable time, effort, and expense, possibly risking their own lives,
> trying to figure out what happened to me. It didn't matter if I cared
> whether they found me or not.
>
> Back to solo CAVING. At first, it just sort of happened. Separated from the
> others for a variety of reasons. An attempt to find a way on, or a
> different way out, as in the case of the Turtle Hurdles. Or in big caves as
> a result of practical need (going out, meeting a different group, moving
> supplies or equipment). I found that most of those times were not especially
> "enjoyable". Occasionally some became "lessons learned experiences", as
> Speleosteele has described.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, that statement brings back a fond memory, again way deep in Proctor Cave,
now connected to Mammoth Cave.
Our survey team did the crawl, the 160' drops, the inner-tube assisted swim in
wetsuits across Hawkins River deep spot, and a day's long survey of virgin
passage. At the end of the day (likely around 2:00 am) we put up the
instruments and headed off in four different directions checking the leads for
a few hundred feet to guide the next team in two days later. I squeezed through
a low place into walking passage and quickly found fresh footprints. I assumed
they were from another team member that was just there minutes before. The next
day I asked the other team members who had been in the "walking passage" I
found. Not a one of them! I was kidded about Floyd Collins' ghost, and promptly
forgot about the prints. As expedition leader, I stayed out 2 days later but
sent in a strong team to continue our explorations. As I recall, Art and Peg
Palmer were on that team, and they were given the goal of discovering the route
through a breakdown to a "secret" cave I was just then learning about, a cave
passage reached via another entrance just outside the Park. The team pushed
through the breakdown and found the continuation of the Hawkins River passage,
complete with footprints leading back to the other entrance. Although I knew
some of the details, I did not know the exact timeline and was unable to put
together the tidbits of information until many years later, when I read the
book. Had I been to the "solo footprints" a couple of nights earlier, I may
have met the other solo caver that also rejoined his team at the end of a long
day and headed back out some rough cave to the sun the next morning. It wasn't
Floyd I may have met, it was Don Coons.
- Pete
On Sep 16, 2013, at 4:10 PM, dirt...@comcast.net wrote:
I was about to turn around and THERE, at the seeming end, was one foot print.
Clearly, another caver, also alone, had been here before. Both of us
carefully stepping...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes the thread has morphed into something else, but finally, after those who
condemned it, rightfully so, those cavers who have and are still doing solo
caving have contributed really good material.
Thank you.
Solo caving can be divided into three main parts. Those who seek out a cave to
explore on their own for whatever reason right or wrong. Then there is one
aspect of solo caving many cavers are involved in today: Route finding and
there are many risks. The last is solo vertical climbing deep drops to exit the
cave. It is solo, but others are coming up and can offer help of needed.
In ready the submitted solo trips, some solo on side a large cave is spur of
the moment rather than planned. Such as checking a lead and being gone from the
group for hours.
I am not here to judge right or wrong. My interest was to find out what other
cavers do while underground.
To me a lot of solo caving depends in how comfortable you are with the cave.
Good examples are Robber Baron and Amazing Maze. One caver is very comfortable
with Whirlpool Cave. There are other cave that qualify
Do I solo? Yes!
None of recommend others do solo caving as we all know it has many unknown risks
I thank everyone who sent in their experiences
Jim
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 16, 2013, at 5:10 PM, dirt...@comcast.net wrote:
> Solo
>
> I have found this to be a rather interesting thread.
>
> James' question, which started all this, was " What is the general feeling
> regarding solo caving?"
>
> That seems to have morphed into "Why would anyone go caving alone?" And
> finally into folks actually describing some of their solo experiences.
>
> "Why would you cave alone?" has as many answers as there are cavers who have
> been caving by themselves.
>
> Usually, when I have been asked that question, it has been from someone who
> cannot comprehend (and usually appalled by) someone who would go off by
> themselves, especially in or into a cave.
>
> To those of you who have seriously asked why someone would cave alone, this
> is a sincere effort to reply. Not really to explain. Certainly not to
> justify.
>
> Hold this thought:
>
> What is unknown and therefore fearful for one person may be rather
> commonplace for another.
>
> Cavers, in particular, should understand this. Is there anyone reading this
> who has not been asked "Why do you DO that?" Caves are DARK. Caves are
> DANGEROUS. In the mud and the cold? There is no light in there!
>
> Those of us comfortable at being alone in a cave often do not talk about it,
> even when asked. There is that stigma attached by those who do not understand.
>
> There is a huge difference between attempting to answer the question and to
> encourage or invite someone to go off alone in a cave or to glorify caving by
> themselves. I feel that to encourage or glorify is unethical, dangerous, and
> perhaps even criminal. We are correct to advise others to cave in a group.
>
> There is also a big difference between the kind of experience beyond the
> Turtle Hurdles that Pete and I described and the kind of time spent by the
> Collins and Boons of the world. And by Jack Lehrberger or Bill Austin (the
> manager of Floyd Collins Crystal Cave in the 50s and 60s) and other "secret"
> cavers seeking discoveries that are "theirs", and theirs alone. The solo
> experiences described on this thread, more in line with what James was
> inquiring about, are of shorter duration and less technically demanding than
> really serious solo exploration of a major cave system. They are usually
> fun, at least when they start out.
>
> Sometimes there is a commercial interest. For some, it is the personal
> challenge: "I can do that!" (A little chest-pounding?) A few cavers are just
> uncomfortable around other people. Some have sought comfort from other
> pressures in life by hiding out somewhere comfortable for them - a few have
> found that spot in a cave.
>
> I can best speak from my own experiences. As a young geologist-mountaineer I
> became comfortable being alone in remote mountain and desert wilderness. I
> did not think I was driven by the desire to be alone. I wanted to go
> somewhere and see something particular and there was no one around with a
> similar interest. And I liked to explore. It was fun to be somewhere new
> and to see sights from an unusual perspective. I had learned the skills,
> possessed the equipment, and used forethought and planning. It became
> commonplace for me to be alone in the wilderness. I had a great time.
>
> I felt that I was at less risk there than I was when riding my bicycle down
> the streets of Laramie - or any town or city. Lew Bicking and I had a
> discussion about that, just the two of us (not quite alone), in the Guadalupe
> Mountains of New Mexico, shortly before he was killed on an eastern roadway.
>
> I remember standing, very alone, high in the Rocky Mountains, looking down
> into a bergschrund that seemed to drop downward forever, a blue-black slot
> into an icy Hell. "If the snow I am standing on gives way, no one will
> know what happened. No one has any idea where I am. I will simply
> disappear from the face of the Earth."
>
> I cautiously stepped back, for I have never been suicidal. At that time I
> was a very good climber, an experienced leader but a cut below the best. A
> climbing companion who was one of the best told me "You will never really be
> a REALLY fine climber unless you put your life on the line."
>
> I have never knowingly done so. I have enjoyed my climbing, caving, and
> other experiences. I now look back on a full and interesting life. I was not
> simply "lucky".
>
> I have spent days alone in the wilderness, the mountains, the desert, and
> many hours alone in caves. Quite often I started out above ground with no
> idea where, exactly, I was going to be, although I had a goal. Somebody
> usually knew, sort of. That would have narrowed it down, but the area might
> be 10 or 20 square miles. I remember finding a remote cave, and well back
> into it thinking that if I became injured or trapped there would not even be
> buzzards circling above to help others (or predators) locate me. An
> interesting thought that really did not bother me as I felt comfortable in my
> environment, with my equipment, and with my knowledge, which included
> knowledge of myself.
>
> Another thing I have considered is my responsibility to others. I realized
> long ago that if I did manage to disappear, others would probably expend
> considerable time, effort, and expense, possibly risking their own lives,
> trying to figure out what happened to me. It didn't matter if I cared
> whether they found me or not.
>
> Back to solo CAVING. At first, it just sort of happened. Separated from the
> others for a variety of reasons. An attempt to find a way on, or a
> different way out, as in the case of the Turtle Hurdles. Or in big caves as
> a result of practical need (going out, meeting a different group, moving
> supplies or equipment). I found that most of those times were not especially
> "enjoyable". Occasionally some became "lessons learned experiences", as
> Speleosteele has described. Not solo caving in the original sense of the
> question.
>
> Three of us in a South Dakota cave. A rest and a snack. Passages went
> everywhere. Each of us went our separate way for a while, planning on
> meeting back again at a set time. All virgin cave. Discovery. Quiet. Beauty.
> Peace. A step toward what you were asking about?
>
> In a "new" Guadalupe cave. Alone because others were either resting, eating,
> or resolving a survey issue from a prior trip. Just looking around. A
> little duck-under - hmm, this is getting nice. Careful where I step, this is
> virgin! Farther, longer. More time alone. More careful steps through very
> pretty virgin cave. I was about to turn around and THERE, at the seeming
> end, was one foot print. Clearly, another caver, also alone, had been here
> before. Both of us carefully stepping toward what you were asking about?
>
> Over time and with accumulated experience, becoming quite comfortable alone
> in a cave. I have had some experiences that have been personally rewarding
> and quite memorable, alone in a cave. There are also times, not alone, when
> I have felt it more dangerous, and certainly more anxiety-filled, to be with
> someone who is less skilled and less comfortable with themselves and their
> surroundings.
>
> We should make our own choices and be cautious about judging the choice that
> others make.
>
> Dirt Doc
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When she was living and caving in Belize, I have the impression that
Barb MacLeod was into staying alone in a cave for a day or so as a
sort of sensory deprivation, mind-altering experience. This is based
mainly on her 1973 song "Forever on a Flowstone Moëbius Strip," which
wraps up:
Turn out your lights and sit there
For a long, long time;
Till your hair is caked with flowstone
And your gear has turned to slime;
Engulfed in night, concealed from light
The perfect image lies,
'Tis known to all stalagmites old and wise.
--Mixon
----------------------------------------
A little sincerity is a dangerous thing, and a great deal of it is
absolutely fatal.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: a...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Listen to it at caves.org/committee/salons/ballads/Music/1973/
Forever_Moebius_Strip.mp3.
--Mixon
----------------------------------------
A little sincerity is a dangerous thing, and a great deal of it is
absolutely fatal.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: a...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 9/16/2013 6:47 PM, Mixon Bill wrote:
When she was living and caving in Belize, I have the impression that Barb MacLeod was into staying alone in a cave for a day or so as a sort
of sensory deprivation, mind-altering experience. This is based mainly on her 1973 song "Forever on a Flowstone Mo�bius Strip," which wraps up:
Turn out your lights and sit there
For a long, long time;
Till your hair is caked with flowstone
And your gear has turned to slime;
Engulfed in night, concealed from light
The perfect image lies,
'Tis known to all stalagmites old and wise.
--Mixon
Yes she did, several times. Her epic ballad Encounter of the Long Count Keeper is based on the same theme. She told me the stories and even
co-authored a professional paper about the experiences. Her belief that Maya priests-in-training and other spiritual leaders surely did the same
thing was convincing to many Maya scholars. I am bccing her in case she would like to comment.
Logan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Forwarded on behalf of Barbara MacLeod:
"These were carefully-planned experiments in sensory isolation, set far into a familiar but then seldom-visited, beautifully decorated cave that
was used by the Classic Maya to propitiate earth and rain gods. Ancient human bones and pottery were found nearby. The stays were 48 hours, with
no light, in a very quiet part of the cave. Buckets on strings provided drinking water and potty facilities. We had plenty of food but ate
little of it. Some very interesting events took place in our minds. Barb"
The paper is Pathways Into Darkness: The Search for the Road to Xibalb�, by Barbara MacLeod and Dennis E. Puleston. Tercera Mesa Redonda de
Palenque, 1978.
http://www.mesoweb.com/search/search.asp
javascript:open_window('http://www.mesoweb.com/pari/publications/RT04/Pathways.html');
Logan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, looks like those links don't work. Just go to Mesoweb and search for
keywords.
http://www.mesoweb.com
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: solo caving, cave meditation
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2013 19:32:45 -0500
From: Logan McNatt <lmcn...@austin.rr.com>
Reply-To: lmcn...@austin.rr.com
To: Texas Cavers <texascavers@texascavers.com>
Forwarded on behalf of Barbara MacLeod:
"These were carefully-planned experiments in sensory isolation, set far into a
familiar but then seldom-visited, beautifully decorated cave that
was used by the Classic Maya to propitiate earth and rain gods. Ancient human
bones and pottery were found nearby. The stays were 48 hours, with
no light, in a very quiet part of the cave. Buckets on strings provided
drinking water and potty facilities. We had plenty of food but ate
little of it. Some very interesting events took place in our minds. Barb"
The paper is Pathways Into Darkness: The Search for the Road to Xibalb�, by
Barbara MacLeod and Dennis E. Puleston. Tercera Mesa Redonda de
Palenque, 1978.
http://www.mesoweb.com/search/search.asp
javascript:open_window('http://www.mesoweb.com/pari/publications/RT04/Pathways.html');
Logan
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