texascavers Digest 21 Aug 2010 03:13:00 -0000 Issue 1137
Topics (messages 15831 through 15846):
Re: Obama's go underground
15831 by: SS
15832 by: Stefan Creaser
Krubera Cave related
15833 by: David
Re: for your dog lovers
15834 by: David
Weekend Work Trip to Laguna de Sanchez
15835 by: Gary Franklin
15843 by: Mark Minton
stabilizing a cave roof
15836 by: Mixon Bill
15837 by: Frank Binney
15839 by: Josh Rubinstein
15840 by: Josh Rubinstein
15841 by: dirtdoc.comcast.net
Re: Arf
15838 by: John.Schneider
15846 by: Rod Goke
Chinese Railroad Bridge Collapse
15842 by: Gill Edigar
Scientists Study Cave Ice
15844 by: Mark Minton
Re: IM 2010-181, White-nose Syndrome
15845 by: Louise Power
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--- Begin Message ---
More alarmingly....Does this guy ever get around to doing his day job... You
know, that president thing.
-----Original Message-----
From: Logan McNatt [mailto:lmcn...@austin.rr.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 11:23 PM
To: David
Cc: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Obama's go underground
David, I think the answer to your questions is probably yes.
David wrote:
> Most likely they are not going in another cave, nor had they been in
> a cave prior to that.
>
> But there has to be something interesting to this story. Like did they
> just use an ordinary tour guide, or did they get a gov't paid
> specialist to accompany
> them on the tour,
> and was tax-payer money involved in that or any other unusual parts of the
tour?
>
> Did the Secret Service check every lead on the map of the cave before
letting
> the Obama's tour it?
>
> Since communications don't work underground, the First Lady and family
were
> out of communication during the tour. Or did they run cables? Or does
the
> Secret Service have special underground radios?
>
> Did the owner's give the tour for free? Even if they didn't I bet
> they lost a lot
> of money by allowing the tour, as the park was probably closed all day, if
not
> for 3 days.
>
> Seriously, I just think it would be interesting to know how much work the
> Secret Service had to do just for a simple cave tour.
>
> I don't think I have a problem with my taxpayer money used that way,
especially
> if it was all done appropriately.
>
> Anonymous
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This *is* his day job. He has people to run the country. Dontcha know how it
all works, he's just the fall guy...
-----Original Message-----
From: SS [mailto:back2scool...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wed 8/18/2010 11:41 PM
To: lmcn...@austin.rr.com; 'David'
Cc: 'Cavers Texas'
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Re: Obama's go underground
More alarmingly....Does this guy ever get around to doing his day job... You
know, that president thing.
-----Original Message-----
From: Logan McNatt [mailto:lmcn...@austin.rr.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 11:23 PM
To: David
Cc: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Obama's go underground
David, I think the answer to your questions is probably yes.
David wrote:
> Most likely they are not going in another cave, nor had they been in
> a cave prior to that.
>
> But there has to be something interesting to this story. Like did they
> just use an ordinary tour guide, or did they get a gov't paid
> specialist to accompany
> them on the tour,
> and was tax-payer money involved in that or any other unusual parts of the
tour?
>
> Did the Secret Service check every lead on the map of the cave before
letting
> the Obama's tour it?
>
> Since communications don't work underground, the First Lady and family
were
> out of communication during the tour. Or did they run cables? Or does
the
> Secret Service have special underground radios?
>
> Did the owner's give the tour for free? Even if they didn't I bet
> they lost a lot
> of money by allowing the tour, as the park was probably closed all day, if
not
> for 3 days.
>
> Seriously, I just think it would be interesting to know how much work the
> Secret Service had to do just for a simple cave tour.
>
> I don't think I have a problem with my taxpayer money used that way,
especially
> if it was all done appropriately.
>
> Anonymous
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
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--
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient,
please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any
other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any
medium. Thank you.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
According to the Newsweek article below, there is possibly some new news going
on in the control of government in the country of Abkhazia.
http://www.newsweek.com/2010/08/18/how-russia-s-fsb-colonized-abkhazia.html?from=rss
I don't see anything cave related here. But the puppet president (
or governor ) claims that
a new airport is about to open in Sukhumi, and the article makes it
sound like they are going to encourage
tourism ( that sounds better than war. Right ? )
According to the map below, the airport in Sukhumi is near the coast
southeast of the caving area.
I presume that is much closer than where cavers have flown to from
previous expeditions.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Abkhazia_detail_map.png
I believe the cave is about 10 km due north of the coastal town of Gagra.
And Gagra is about 60 km west of the proposed airport.
Feel free to correct me on any of this, or whether it is relevant.
Ref:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voronya_Cave
http://www.saudicaves.com/mx/Gustavo/index.html
http://www.speleogenesis.info/img/werbung/krubera_profile_large.gif
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This months issue of Archeology Magazine has 4 page article on
recorded dog history with
humans.
But my original post was about what it must have been like in the late
Pleistocene,
when the first man for whatever reason domesticated the first dog and
whether this
person lived in a cave and kept the dog there.
Anybody read this?
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61sy8a2OY4L._SS500_.jpg
Kip, a cave boy living at the end of the Ice Age, is followed on his
journey home by a Paleowolf, who, smelling the boy's roasted Woolly
Rhino bones, begs for a treat. Each time the boy stops to rest and
eat, the wolf hound senses danger and flees, saving the boy's life,
too. After Paleowolf warns him of a fearsome Saber-Toothed Cat, the
boy makes a deal with him that he will exchange some of his food for
the animal's protective senses.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
RE: Weekend Work Trip August 28 & 29
Cavers,
I am planning a Weekend Work Trip to Laguna de Sanchez to work the road down
to the ranch at La Camotera where our vehicles were stranded during the
Hurricane Alex rains in early July. There are some areas that need a
backhoe, but much of the 4 Km road can be driven by straddling the washout
gouges with the 4WD vehicles that need some help to get past some obstacles.
Join us for a quick trip to Mexico to help out some cavers who are trying to
get there vehicles back from a Caving trip. There was a backho in town that
may be for hire. I have some rock bars, shovels, picks, and a chain winch
that can provide a better work out than the gym. I need several folks and
another driver. The Road to Laguna was accessible via Saltillo where the
Santiago way in still lacked a section through the box canyon. We are trying
to get to WGS 84 - [ 25.3146, -100.210] or [ N 25 18.876 W 100 12.600 ]
A chronological trip down the road are posted at the following public link.
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2078702&id=1422061735&l=f260019c74
nd another . We are leaving out on Friday afternoon, work Saturday and
Sunday, and return on Monday. Give me a call or reply to my email to share
in the fun that will help out your fellow caver and the Rancher who has been
cutoff for a couple of months.
Gary Franklin
UT Grotto - Austin Texas
512-585-6057
caver.g...@gmail.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree with Ediger's assessment that
most of the road should be relatively easy to
repair for 4WD passage. Be sure to take a chain
saw, a come along and a winch, in addition to
other earth moving tools. In a single day back
in 2006 a group of only 8 cavers rebuilt a very
washed out section of road right down the middle
of an arroyo in Purificación, and this looks no
worse, except for the trees. (See AMCS
Activities Newsletter No. 30, 2007 and Death
Coral Caver No 14, 2009.) Good luck! (By the
way, Ediger's comment mentioned photos 100-104,
but I counted only 93 photos total!?)
Mark Minton
At 08:53 AM 8/19/2010, Gary Franklin wrote:
RE: Weekend Work Trip August 28 & 29
Cavers,
I am planning a Weekend Work Trip to Laguna de
Sanchez to work the road down to the ranch at La
Camotera where our vehicles were stranded during
the Hurricane Alex rains in early July. There
are some areas that need a backhoe, but much of
the 4 Km road can be driven by straddling the
washout gouges with the 4WD vehicles that need
some help to get past some obstacles.
Join us for a quick trip to Mexico to help out
some cavers who are trying to get there vehicles
back from a Caving trip. There was a backho in
town that may be for hire. I have some rock
bars, shovels, picks, and a chain winch that can
provide a better work out than the gym. I need
several folks and another driver. The Road to
Laguna was accessible via Saltillo where the
Santiago way in still lacked a section through
the box canyon. We are trying to get to WGS 84 -
[ 25.3146, -100.210] or [ N 25 18.876 W 100 12.600 ]
A chronological trip down the road are posted at the following public link.
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2078702&id=1422061735&l=f260019c74
nd another . We are leaving out on Friday
afternoon, work Saturday and Sunday, and return
on Monday. Give me a call or reply to my email
to share in the fun that will help out your
fellow caver and the Rancher who has been cutoff for a couple of months.
Gary Franklin
UT Grotto - Austin Texas
512-585-6057
caver.g...@gmail.com
Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
An article in the latest issue of Acta Carsologica (http://carsologica.zrc-sazu.si/downloads/391/5garasic.pdf
) contains a description of the most extreme measures I've ever read
about taken to stabilize a cave roof--other than, of course, just
filling the whole thing with grout. Boring of a road tunnel
encountered a large cave room, in which a 58-meter-long bridge was
built for the road to cross the room. The ceiling of the room was
judged unsafe, as the overburden was "only" about 40 meters. So the
entire ceiling of the room was tied to the surface with hundreds of
pretensioned steel cables on a 2-meter grid. On the surface, the
cables are anchored to a grid of concrete beams 1 meter high and 0.5
meters thick. The cables are attached to "geotechnical anchors" that
aren't really described, but that appears to mean that they are
cemented throughout their lengths in holes 150 mm (6 inches) in
diameter. -- Mixon
----------------------------------------
Home is that place where, when you have to go there, they have to take
you in.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A fascinating and beautifully photographed video of this work, by Croatian
caver Boris Watz, won an award in this year's NSS Video Salon. You can check
out a copy from the NSS library for showing at grotto meetings, etc.:
Bridge in Tunnel, Boris Watz
23:02 minutes
Frank Binney
(Video salon judge this year with Alex Sproul and Lee Stevens)
On 8/19/10 11:32 AM, "Mixon Bill" <bmixon...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> An article in the latest issue of Acta Carsologica
> (http://carsologica.zrc-sazu.si/downloads/391/5garasic.pdf
> ) contains a description of the most extreme measures I've ever read
> about taken to stabilize a cave roof--other than, of course, just
> filling the whole thing with grout. Boring of a road tunnel
> encountered a large cave room, in which a 58-meter-long bridge was
> built for the road to cross the room. The ceiling of the room was
> judged unsafe, as the overburden was "only" about 40 meters. So the
> entire ceiling of the room was tied to the surface with hundreds of
> pretensioned steel cables on a 2-meter grid. On the surface, the
> cables are anchored to a grid of concrete beams 1 meter high and 0.5
> meters thick. The cables are attached to "geotechnical anchors" that
> aren't really described, but that appears to mean that they are
> cemented throughout their lengths in holes 150 mm (6 inches) in
> diameter. -- Mixon
> ----------------------------------------
> Home is that place where, when you have to go there, they have to take
> you in.
> ----------------------------------------
> You may "reply" to the address this message
> came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
> AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill,
At the NSS Convention, a very professional was shown about this tunnel
stabilization. The winners of video salon are not posted yet but hopefully
soon we will be able to see it the NSS site.
Josh
On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 1:32 PM, Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> An article in the latest issue of Acta Carsologica (
> http://carsologica.zrc-sazu.si/downloads/391/5garasic.pdf) contains a
> description of the most extreme measures I've ever read about taken to
> stabilize a cave roof--other than, of course, just filling the whole thing
> with grout. Boring of a road tunnel encountered a large cave room, in which
> a 58-meter-long bridge was built for the road to cross the room. The ceiling
> of the room was judged unsafe, as the overburden was "only" about 40 meters.
> So the entire ceiling of the room was tied to the surface with hundreds of
> pretensioned steel cables on a 2-meter grid. On the surface, the cables are
> anchored to a grid of concrete beams 1 meter high and 0.5 meters thick. The
> cables are attached to "geotechnical anchors" that aren't really described,
> but that appears to mean that they are cemented throughout their lengths in
> holes 150 mm (6 inches) in diameter. -- Mixon
> ----------------------------------------
> Home is that place where, when you have to go there, they have to take you
> in.
> ----------------------------------------
> You may "reply" to the address this message
> came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
> AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ooops. Professional video.
On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Geary Schindel <
gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org> wrote:
> A professional “What?” was shown. Better reread your post.
>
>
>
> Geary
>
>
>
> *From:* Josh Rubinstein [mailto:kars...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 19, 2010 4:03 PM
> *To:* Mixon Bill
> *Cc:* Cavers Texas
> *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] stabilizing a cave roof
>
>
>
> Bill,
>
>
>
> At the NSS Convention, a very professional was shown about this tunnel
> stabilization. The winners of video salon are not posted yet but hopefully
> soon we will be able to see it the NSS site.
>
>
>
> Josh
>
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 1:32 PM, Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
> An article in the latest issue of Acta Carsologica (
> http://carsologica.zrc-sazu.si/downloads/391/5garasic.pdf) contains a
> description of the most extreme measures I've ever read about taken to
> stabilize a cave roof--other than, of course, just filling the whole thing
> with grout. Boring of a road tunnel encountered a large cave room, in which
> a 58-meter-long bridge was built for the road to cross the room. The ceiling
> of the room was judged unsafe, as the overburden was "only" about 40 meters.
> So the entire ceiling of the room was tied to the surface with hundreds of
> pretensioned steel cables on a 2-meter grid. On the surface, the cables are
> anchored to a grid of concrete beams 1 meter high and 0.5 meters thick. The
> cables are attached to "geotechnical anchors" that aren't really described,
> but that appears to mean that they are cemented throughout their lengths in
> holes 150 mm (6 inches) in diameter. -- Mixon
> ----------------------------------------
> Home is that place where, when you have to go there, they have to take you
> in.
> ----------------------------------------
> You may "reply" to the address this message
> came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
> AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When we visited our friends at the Karst Institute in Postjonia and the
Institute for Mining, Geotechnology and Environment in Ljubljana in 2008 with
our Classic Karst group we were treated to several detailed engineering
discussions of this and other instances where tunneling intersected major
caves. There was both the description of highway tunnels and a large tunnel
for a new high-speed rail line from Lubjuljana to the coast, built largely
underground through the heart of the Slovenian karst. The engineering is
quite state-of-the-art. They have essentially built bridges across both
suspect ground and both over and through cave passages. In many cases you would
not realize that they have built structural bridges, as there is no void that
you can see that is spanned. This is done everywhere in the world - in
Colorado the classic examples are the interstate through Glenwood Canyon (which
you will see at next year's NSS convention) and on Coal Mine Road in SW Denver
(near the Columbine High School), where a main roadway spans underground coal
mine workings. In the later case, the road looks superficially like an
ordinary highway but is supported just like a bridge is supported so that the
roadway does not collapse into the unseen underground workings.
Bill remarks on some of the more dramatic "geotechnical anchors". The problem
is not just with "loose rock" but with rocks that will become loose with time.
Most caves have existed for a long enough time for the stresses in the
surrounding rock to adjust to the presence of the cave opening. When you
mine, or dig a tunnel, rock mass is rapidly removed and stresses in the
surrounding rock then readjust, sometimes with dramatic results. In some
situations "rock bursts" can occur with explosive force and deadly results.
At the WIPP site, outside of Carlsbad, NM, the excavated openings have moved
over a foot in less than ten years, the roof coming down, the floor coming up,
and the walls creeping in. That is by design, by the way, as that process is
what encapsulates the radioactive waste, sealing it inside the WIPP repository.
In most cases around mined openings the surrounding rocks slowly readjust,
fracture, first moving inward and then catastrophically falling.
"Rock bolts" are a more common form of geotechnical anchor commonly used in
both underground mining and highway construction. These are usually steel
rods that are from a few feet to several tens of feet long, some set with a
physical, mechanical, anchor (a giant expansion bolt) at their far end and some
set with a variety of cements and epoxies. They all serve the purpose of
tying a mass of rock together to prevent it from loosening due to the rock
creeping into the excavation.
In caves and caving we rarely think about these things. When you are building
a high-speed roadway or rail line, you will tend to over-engineer the roof
support as failure is a rather undesirable result that also carries additional,
political implications. The impressive thing about what they are doing in
Slovenia (and elsewhere in the Balkans) is that they are world-class engineers
and karst scientists working together to both build modern transportation
systems and preserve and honor world-class caves.
And Frank Binney is right - that was a fascinating, professionally done,
and interesting video! Check it out.
DirtDoc
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: John.Schneider
To: dirt...@comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: Arf
I Agree they are more than emergency rations.
I spent 2 years in South Korea while in the army and there routine things on
the menu were dogs, cats and field rats.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: dirt...@comcast.net
To: Gill Edigar
Cc: Cavers Texas ; David
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 8:55 AM
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Arf
Not necessarily "emergency rations". When we were caving in rural China in
1993 and living off local rations, the cook finally came up with some really
good meat. Consistantly the best we had all month. Turned out to be dog.
Then we noticed in the vilages that kids and puppies were frolicking around,
as do kids and puppies everywhere. There was a lack of full-grown dogs, except
that most families kept a well-cared bitch as a family friend and breeding
stock.
That observation is non-judgemental. To keep the record straight, I love
dogs and have had them most of my adult life. You more mature cavers certainly
remember Crooked Thumb and Woola.
DirtDoc
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gill Edigar" <gi...@att.net>
To: "David" <dlocklea...@gmail.com>
Cc: "Cavers Texas" <texascavers@texascavers.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 6:26:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] for you dog lovers
Whilst in Jr High I was told that the American Indians had two
domestic pets: dogs and turkeys.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
... "To keep the record straight, I love dogs and have had them most of my
adult life." ...
That leaves room for interpretation, doesn't it. Lots of people around here say
they love barbecue and have had it most of their adult lives, too. You're not
planning to cook for TCR by any chance, are you?
;-)
Rod
-----Original Message-----
>From: dirt...@comcast.net
>Sent: Aug 18, 2010 9:55 AM
>To: Gill Edigar <gi...@att.net>
>Cc: Cavers Texas <texascavers@texascavers.com>, David <dlocklea...@gmail.com>
>Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Arf
>
>
>
>Not necessarily "emergency rations". When we were caving in rural China in
>1993 and living off local rations, the cook finally came up with some really
>good meat. Consistantly the best we had all month. Turned out to be dog.
>
>
>
>Then we noticed in the vilages that kids and puppies were frolicking around,
>as do kids and puppies everywhere. There was a lack of full-grown dogs,
>except that most families kept a well-cared bitch as a family friend and
>breeding stock.
>
>
>
>That observation is non-judgemental. To keep the record straight, I love dogs
>and have had them most of my adult life. You more mature cavers certainly
>remember Crooked Thumb and Woola.
>
>
>
>DirtDoc
>
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Gill Edigar" <gi...@att.net>
>To: "David" <dlocklea...@gmail.com>
>Cc: "Cavers Texas" <texascavers@texascavers.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 6:26:25 AM
>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] for you dog lovers
>
>Whilst in Jr High I was told that the American Indians had two
>domestic pets: dogs and turkeys.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's a link to a short video of the aftermath of the bridge collapse.
http://www.ndtv.com/news/videos/video_player.php?page=4&id=159190
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--- Begin Message ---
Similarly to ice cores from glaciers, scientists are now
studying persistent cave ice for clues about past climate:
<http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/329/5993/746>
Mark Minton
Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
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--- Begin Message ---
I am pleased to say that, in the spirit of better late than never, BLM has now
initiated its own WNS plan. We just got this a few minutes ago, so you can take
a look by clicking the link below.
>From the government and here to help you,
Louise
>
> http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations/Instruction_Memos_and_Bulletins/national_instruction/2010/IM_2010-181.html
>
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