texascavers Digest 26 Feb 2010 15:52:09 -0000 Issue 992

Fri, 26 Feb 2010 07:52:19 -0800 (PST) 

texascavers Digest 26 Feb 2010 15:52:09 -0000 Issue 992

Topics (messages 13961 through 13978):

Lincoln National Forest Cave Meeting Notes
        13961 by: Mark Alman

The last Hummer truck
        13962 by: David
        13963 by: Don Arburn
        13965 by: Nico Escamilla
        13966 by: Rod Goke
        13967 by: Preston Forsythe
        13968 by: Chris Vreeland
        13970 by: wa5pok.peoplepc.com
        13973 by: Stefan Creaser
        13976 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net

Re: grotto culture and concealed carry- Not at UT
        13964 by: Rod Goke

Re: White-nose syndrome related
        13969 by: Alex Sproul

Re: Honey Creek Cave trips March 13 and April 3
        13971 by: Kristina Hager

airborne rabies case ?
        13972 by: David
        13975 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com

A Colorado cave might hold a key to extraterrestrial life forms :
        13974 by: JerryAtkin.aol.com

Another cave-like building
        13977 by: John P. Brooks

Re: Minnow
        13978 by: Fritz Holt

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--- Begin Message --- 

Got this from the NMCAVER remailer fot those interested in caving in the Guads 
and Carlsbad area, like me.


Thanks,

Mark A.

 


----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Ken Harrington <ken_harring...@hotmail.com>
To: NM Cavers <nmca...@caver.net>
Sent: Thu, February 25, 2010 11:00:07 AM
Subject: [NMCAVER] LNF Cave MTG Notes


Hi all,



I have been asked to post something on the meeting that was held between the 
Forest Service and the caving community on Feb 22nd in Carlsbad.  The following 
is a combination of my recollections and notes taken by Dave Belski.



The meeting was led by Jacquline (Jacque) Buchanan of the Forest Service.  
There were approximately eight or nine Forest Service personnel attending.  
Since I sat in the front of the room I did not get a chance to do a head count 
on the number of cavers present but I estimate somewhere between 30 and 40. 

The caving community showed that we are very diverse and have very differing 
desires.  The issue of distrust of the Forest Service was clearly stated by 
several of the cavers.

The following notes were taken by Dave Belski and I have made a few minor 
changes to them.  Where it refers to “she” the “she” is Jacque.

She did say that Jerry Trout was retiring in March and she would try 
to get his position moved to the Lincoln National Forest. She said it could 
happen in 
March.

I got the impression that she had no idea she was walking into a buzz 
saw. When she got back to the states in January she had an e-mail 
clogged with comments, most curt.

Her opening statement was she wanted to hear the good, the bad and the 
ugly. She heard it!

She said she was told she had three weeks to clear up this district as 
to the caving problem. She had re-instated Ransom's position but 
funding got cut in the 1 Million $ range. 

She wants to live up to the "Caring for the land and servicing people" 
motto.

Her plan is two fold

1. Short term solution- regarding recreational permits
A 3 March meeting with BLM and NPS to ask for help in formulating a 
way to get the recreational position filled.  Attempt to get temporay help from 
the other two agencies

2. Work on the problem of personnel getting promoted and moving out or 
getting better job offers and moving out. Insure that there is a system in 
place to acquire replacements that are qualified individuals.  She is now aware 
of the requirement that any replacements have vertical caving capabilities. 

She said she has a good track record getting $$$ She wants any $$$ she 
gets to be tied directly to the cave position.

She is shooting for two positions. Dave asked her what level she would be 
trying to get. She said she would like to have a 11 and a 7 but would 
be satisfied with a 9 and a 7. She is going to try to get the funding 
within 2 months. The positions will be flown both demo and merit. (in 
house and out house so to speak) She said she wants individuals who get 
the positions to be vertically qualified cavers and ready to step into 
the program. It was recommended that the job positions be posted in the 
NSS NEWS. 
She said she was 85% sure of getting the two positions. She alluded to knowing 
how to handle Washington pressure.

She wants to see all the things that as of now are bad with the 
Lincoln/guads cave/rec program. 

Scott House told her that
1 The resource must have the highest priority
2.Management needs to meet this priority
3.Must have a cave management plan
4.Must live up to the Cave Management Plan

She was not aware of a MOU between the NSS and USFS. Dave had a copy 
and provided it to her.

She said that there had not been a needs assessment done in a very long 
time. One will be done.

She was firm in saying that there would be NO outfitter guide system 
established in the forest. A discussion on the current trip leader/guide 
requirements 
needed to get into some of the caves was handled. She agreed that the current 
rules for acting as a guide/trip leader should be reviewed and revised. 

Larry Paul from the forest service office in Carlsbad tried to explain the 
current situation and why he decided to close the caves. It did not go over 
well. He basically made the decision as they (the Forest Service) had no 
qualified cavers on staff to oversee any type of rescue should one be required.

She said they knew of 117 forest caves. Well short of the total on the 
books. The NSS SWR cave files have the Lincoln with 386 caves and the Forest 
with a total of 487 caves. 

She promised action.

She wants to:

find out what is not working
what can we do different
how can we fix the cave permit program

The Forest Service is developing a proposal to go up the chain in the Forest 
Service to raise the level of attention that is given to the caves in the 
guads.  She realizes that they are world class caves and wants to give both the 
caves and the caving community the attention that we believe is appropriate.  
The proposal will be in final draft in one month and she will make it available 
to the caving community for input and comment.    

Now that "we" have her attention and she knows from where we are coming from, 
an inter regional meeting is next.  We really need to speak with one voice (if 
that is possible).

Ken
                        
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
NMCAVER mailing list
nmca...@caver.net
http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Sources in Shreveport say that the last Hummer truck rolled off the
assembly line about 6 weeks ago.

Here is a nice looking one in Georgetown for sale:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Hummer-H3T-2009-HUMMER-H3T_W0QQitemZ120532963799QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item1c105311d7

Here is a review.

http://www.myride.com/content/shared/articles/templates/index.cfm/article_id_int/4155/page/page1/id/30170;ride


Maybe a caver will find a good deal on one somewhere.

It is possible that in 10 or 20 years cavers will want these, kind of
like some still like old Scouts, and old Toyota Landcruisers, and old
Jeep Wagoneers.

David Locklear

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
It is possible that in 10 or 20 years cavers will want these, kind of
like some still like old Scouts, and old Toyota Landcruisers, and old
Jeep Wagoneers.


Doubt it.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I've wanted one since I was 13 or so. a hummer, not an H2 which is a
glorified suburban
or the h3 which is based on the chevy colorado platform albeit the latter
looks pretty good

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 6:40 PM, Don Arburn <donarb...@mac.com> wrote:

> It is possible that in 10 or 20 years cavers will want these, kind of
>> like some still like old Scouts, and old Toyota Landcruisers, and old
>> Jeep Wagoneers.
>>
>
> Doubt it.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Or in 50 years, will they be as popular as old Powerwagon buses?

-----Original Message-----
>From: Don Arburn <donarb...@mac.com>
>Sent: Feb 25, 2010 7:40 PM
>To: David <dlocklea...@gmail.com>
>Cc: Cavers Texas <texascavers@texascavers.com>
>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The last Hummer truck
>
>> It is possible that in 10 or 20 years cavers will want these, kind of
>> like some still like old Scouts, and old Toyota Landcruisers, and old
>> Jeep Wagoneers.
>
>Doubt it.
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Don't leave out Power Wagons!

Preston in Outer Browder, KY

--------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message ----- From: "David" <dlocklea...@gmail.com> 
To: "Cavers Texas" <texascavers@texascavers.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 6:37 PM
Subject: [Texascavers] The last Hummer truck



Sources in Shreveport say that the last Hummer truck rolled off the
assembly line about 6 weeks ago.

Here is a nice looking one in Georgetown for sale:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Hummer-H3T-2009-HUMMER-H3T_W0QQitemZ120532963799QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item1c105311d7

Here is a review.

http://www.myride.com/content/shared/articles/templates/index.cfm/article_id_int/4155/page/page1/id/30170;ride


Maybe a caver will find a good deal on one somewhere.

It is possible that in 10 or 20 years cavers will want these, kind of
like some still like old Scouts, and old Toyota Landcruisers, and old
Jeep Wagoneers.

David Locklear

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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
No.

:-)

On Feb 25, 2010, at 7:24 PM, Rod Goke wrote:


Or in 50 years, will they be as popular as old Powerwagon buses?

-----Original Message-----

From: Don Arburn <donarb...@mac.com>
Sent: Feb 25, 2010 7:40 PM
To: David <dlocklea...@gmail.com>
Cc: Cavers Texas <texascavers@texascavers.com>
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The last Hummer truck
It is possible that in 10 or 20 years cavers will want these, kind of like some still like old Scouts, and old Toyota Landcruisers, and old 
Jeep Wagoneers.


Doubt it.

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--- Begin Message --- 
Off road visibility is poor, I'll stick with my wagons.

~F~

> No.
> 
> :-)
> 
> On Feb 25, 2010, at 7:24 PM, Rod Goke wrote:
> 
> > Or in 50 years, will they be as popular as old Powerwagon buses?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Don Arburn <donarb...@mac.com>
> >> Sent: Feb 25, 2010 7:40 PM
> >> To: David <dlocklea...@gmail.com>
> >> Cc: Cavers Texas <texascavers@texascavers.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The last Hummer truck
> >>
> >>> It is possible that in 10 or 20 years cavers will want these, kind
> >>>  of like some still like old Scouts, and old Toyota Landcruisers,
> >>> and  old Jeep Wagoneers.
> >>
> >> Doubt it.
> >>
> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> -- Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe,
> >> e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional
> >> commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> >>
> >
> >
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In 50yrs they'll have all rusted to sh*t. Back where they came from...

-----Original Message-----
From: wa5...@peoplepc.com [mailto:wa5...@peoplepc.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 8:52 PM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The last Hummer truck

Off road visibility is poor, I'll stick with my wagons.

~F~

> No.
> 
> :-)
> 
> On Feb 25, 2010, at 7:24 PM, Rod Goke wrote:
> 
> > Or in 50 years, will they be as popular as old Powerwagon buses?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Don Arburn <donarb...@mac.com>
> >> Sent: Feb 25, 2010 7:40 PM
> >> To: David <dlocklea...@gmail.com>
> >> Cc: Cavers Texas <texascavers@texascavers.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The last Hummer truck
> >>
> >>> It is possible that in 10 or 20 years cavers will want these, kind
> >>>  of like some still like old Scouts, and old Toyota Landcruisers,
> >>> and  old Jeep Wagoneers.
> >>
> >> Doubt it.
> >>
> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> -- Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe,
> >> e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional
> >> commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> >>
> >
> >
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Iraqi immigrants will be using these for chicken coops.
 
T


Feb 25, 2010 06:40:19 PM, donarb...@mac.com wrote:
> It is possible that in 10 or 20 years cavers will want these, kind of
> like some still like old Scouts, and old Toyota Landcruisers, and old
> Jeep Wagoneers.

Doubt it.

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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andy,

You might well be right about UT being one of the places where concealed carry license holders are not allowed to carry firearms (as confirmed by Charles' message). Bars might be another category of places where it is not allowed. I have not checked into these details, since I have no need to do so. That is because, thus far, I have not sought a concealed carry license and have not carried a concealed firearm myself. Those who do get these licenses go through training which includes information about where they can and cannot legally carry their guns, so they should know. Remember, however, that off duty police officers are legally allowed to carry firearms in many places where concealed carry license holders are not, so you might find that firearms are sometimes carried legally on UT property, even if not done so by concealed carry license holders. I trust the police to know those rules better than either of us.

Also, if you read my message carefully, you will see that I never claimed that anyone (even the police officer) carried a concealed firearm on UT property. The question John ask, and which I answered, was whether *any* members of *any* of the grottos carry concealed firearms to grotto meetings, and it certainly is possible that some grottos might meet in places where concealed carry license holders (in addition to police officers) can legally carry their guns.

Although I have not sought a concealed carry license and do not carry concealed firearms myself, I respect those who do so legally and responsibly, and I appreciate the service they perform and the contribution they make to public safety for the benefit of us all.

Rod

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Gluesenkamp
Sent: Feb 25, 2010 5:06 PM
To: John Brooks , Rod Goke
Cc: Cavers Texas
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] grotto culture and concealed carry- Not at UT

Actually, Rod, I believe it is illegal to carry a concealed firearm on UT property.  There was an incident on campus a number of years ago that left a bad impression in people's minds. 
 
Andy

--- On Thu, 2/25/10, Rod Goke <rod.g...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Actually, John, it would not be surprising at all if some grotto members do carry concealed firearms to meetings, and do so legally.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>I think someone needs to create an e-mail listserve just for WNS, if
>one has not been created yet.

Ahem!  David, you have managed to mention virtually every source of WNS
information except the best and most complete one -- the NSS WNS page, authored by Peter Youngbaer, the NSS WNS Liaison, and maintained by yours truly.

It even has an easy link: caves.org/wns

The NSS response to the CBD petitions went up there today.

Alex

--
Alex Sproul
NSS 8086RL/FE
NSS Webmaster
www.caves.org

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Hey Bill,
I just caught the change in the clean-up date.  I am available for April 3rd
and have blocked this on my calendar.

March 13 is looking unlikely as I'm supposed to go visit grandparents.

Btw, are you still planning on allowing tourist-y trips on March 20?

Thanks,
Kristina

On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 9:02 AM, <speleoste...@tx.rr.com> wrote:

> Good morning, Texas cavers,
>
> On February 13 we had a great turnout of properly equipped and spirited
> cavers
> to help deliver cave diving gear to the upstream HS sump, six hours of
> travel
> from the shaft entrance, of our state's longest cave. Thanks again to
> everyone
> who was there. However, we aborted the trip just an hour into it because
> the
> water was higher than expected.
>
> We have rescheduled the trip for March 13, with a second trip to be held on
> April
> 3, to retrieve the dive gear. This is orginal exporation you will be
> supporting.
> Cave divers Jean "Creature" Krecja and James Brown will do a dive on March
> 20th
> through the 1,435 foot HS Sump, traverse about 1,000 feet of air-filler
> passage
> only they have seen and mapped, and dive a second sump, which has not been
> entered
> yet.
>
> We need more people for the March 13 and April 3 trips. You will need a
> wetsuit,
> which can be rented from a scuba store.
>
> Here's who I have down so far. My apologies if someone is planning to be
> there
> and you're not on my list. I've been travelling a lot with my job lately,
> and
> I may have failed to get someone on the list who has contacted me.
>
>
> MARCH 13
>
> James Brown
> Sandi Calhoun
> Jared Fuller
> Gerry Geletzke
> Kristina Hager
> Jean "Creature" Krecja
> Bill Steele
> Ellie Thoene
> Diana Tomchick
>
> (Would like to have 24 cavers, so have 13 to go)
>
> APRIL 3
>
> James Brown
> Sandi Calhoun
> Michael Cicherski
> Ben Hutchins
> Creature
> Niki Lake
> Ellie Thoene
> Drew Wendeborn
>
> (14 to go)
>
> If you're an able caver, this the trip for you. If you're worried about
> getting cold, you won't, because you won't be waiting on the divers. You
> will go there, turn around, and head back to the entrance. The trips
> will be around 12 hours long.
>
> Join us,
>
> Bill Steele
> Irving, Texas
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Here is a new bat rabies articles in the news today.

     http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5907a1.htm

It sounds like the doctor is speculating ( based on only one case )
that in rare cases, patients might
develop a mild form of rabies infection ( instead of regular fatal
rabies ) from which the patient recovers without intensive care.

The doctor is in Houston, but does not say if the girl was from Houston.

It does not say what cave, but indicates the trip was about January 2009.

I don't think you can presume it was a Texas cave.

And it also mentions she
had a pet ferret, but they found no illness in the ferret.

I only mention air-borne rabies, because she doesn't remember getting
bit or scratched, and she
did not become fatally sick.    The article doesn't mention that.  [
Disclaimer:  the Texas teen that died 4 years ago, didn't remember
being bit either. ]

Has she fully recovered?   There was no way to tell by the article,
but sounds like she was
extremely sick for several months.

One definition of "abortive rabies" is:  recovering completely, or
surviving with
residual symptoms such as pareses or paralysis.

I don't know if this incident made the NSS Cave accident list.

The moral to the story is simple:

Cavers need to be aware of the symptoms of
encephalitis, and if you have those symptoms to immediately go to a
"infectious disease specialist" and not the family doctor and
immediately tell them you had contact with a bat and you have rabies
like symptoms.   You can't wait.

Symptoms like the flu, but also :

1.   sensitivity to light ( photophobic )
2.   confusion
3.   memory problems
4.   coordination problems

Here is a specialist pulled off the internet:

Dr. John Bagwell
1301 W 38th St
Austin, TX 78705
(512) 459-0301

Does anyone know a better one?


And while I have your attention,

I thought my post this morning, concerning an off-the shelf vehicle
that was factory ready to go caving in the remote areas of the Sierra
Madres, was a news
worthy post.    And those who e-mailed me privately
to call me a "dumbass," have never once in their lives
posted an article worthy of reading on any caving forum.    I had a
lot more people tell me the article was interesting than the ones who
said it was not CaveTex
material.    You simply can't please everybody in any
organization.    You can choose to sit on the fence.  I
choose to write post that I think are of interest to some
cavers.    I am often wrong or misinformed, but I learn from people
responding to my post.

For example, on the post above, I don't know diddly about bat rabies,
but I am hoping to learn as much as
I can in the short time I have to devote thought to the
subject before I move on to the next subject of interest.

I fully agree that CaveTex is NOT a chat service.   It is like a
newspaper providing a wide range of news to its
subscribers.    You are getting free up-to-date live news as soon as
it hits the web.    Not everybody cares about cave-resto, or cave
survey, or cave-photography or cave science, or cave-calendars, or
cave t-shirts, or caver vehicles, or caver food, or hot-tubs, or
ramen-noodle wrestling, or laws affecting cavers, or speleo-politics
or NSS business announcements, or cave rescue, or bat guano studies,
or WNS, or new headlamps, or commercial cave topics, etc.     So where
do you draw the line when
posting something that is semi-caving related?


David Locklear
caver in Fort Bend County
and host of the 1st Annual East Texas Caver/Cave-Diver's Cookout.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I have three out of four of these symptoms on a regular basis!


Mark A.




-----Original Message-----
From: David [mailto:dlocklea...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 10:29 PM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] airborne rabies case ?


Symptoms like the flu, but also :

1.   sensitivity to light ( photophobic )
2.   confusion
3.   memory problems
4.   coordination problems

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
 
Down the wormhole
A Colorado cave might hold a  key to extraterrestrial life forms

Profile - _From the  March 01, 2010 issue of High Country News_ 
(http://www.hcn.org/issues/42.4) 
by Jennie Lay
 
 
Name Sulphur Cave (Scientists prefer the "f" spelling, but  Sulphur Cave 
has historically been spelled with a "ph.") 
Length 180 feet 
Age Sulphur Cave is considered a youngster at an estimated  100,000 years 
old.

Location Northwest Colorado, near  downtown Steamboat Springs, below the 
jumps of the Howelsen Hill ski  area.

Claim to Fame First cave documented in Colorado,  in 1843. Now it may be 
the site of the first hydrogen sulfide-dependent animals  ever discovered on 
land, and a link to learning about life on Mars.  

Visit Peek into the cave's upper room as you ski by,  but don't go inside. 
Sulphur Cave contains deadly concentrations of gas, so  entry is 
life-threatening and prohibited.

Last fall, a small team of  scientists, veteran cave explorers and a 
photographer gathered near a small --  and stinky -- opening on Howelsen Hill, 
on 
the outskirts of Steamboat Springs,  Colo. Giant ventilation pumps whirred, 
pulling toxic, rotten-egg-smelling  hydrogen sulfide and carbon dioxide out 
of the narrow cave so that the members  of the Sulphur Cave Expedition could 
work their way in. For the fourth time in  two years, they braved the 
drippy acidic atmosphere that burns holes through  T-shirts and turns pennies 
black inside pockets. Undaunted by the slime coating  every crevice, the 
50-degree chill and the dark cramped spaces, the explorers  were in search of 
something special:  Worms. 
Sulphur Cave's dark acidic spring waters hold squirming clumps of blood-red 
 worms unlike any that have ever been discovered on land before. The team 
first  collected the worms during its initial expedition in 2007. After 
finding them  again a year later, one of the team leaders, Norman Pace, a 
University of  Colorado distinguished professor in molecular, cellular and 
developmental  biology, began to suspect their biological significance. He'd 
previously studied  the hydrogen sulfide-eating tubeworms that live along 
hydrothermal vents at the  bottom of the Pacific Ocean. The worms in this cave 
appeared to be thriving in  similarly harsh, acidic conditions. 
But it wasn't the worms that first drew scientific attention to Sulphur 
Cave.  Veteran caver Mike Frazier, visiting Steamboat Springs on a ski trip a 
few years  ago, observed snottites hanging inside the narrow entrance -- soft 
colonies of  microorganisms that bear a remarkable resemblance to the gooey 
nose drippings  for which they are named. Snottites are so rare -- there 
are only four other  known occurrences in the world -- that Frazier and his 
scientific buddies  quickly obtained a smattering of university and museum 
grants and assembled the  first Sulphur Cave Expedition. 
As the expedition members slithered into Sulphur Cave again last fall, Fred 
 Luiszer, a University of Colorado, Boulder, geologist and speleologist, 
lurked  at the entrance to monitor gas concentrations. He measured hydrogen 
sulfide at  325 parts per million; the federal standard for maximum daily 
exposure is 10  parts per million. Carbon dioxide stood at 20.8 percent -- four 
times the level  that will kill you. Team members donned respirators before 
venturing to the back  of the cave. 
Photographer Norman Thompson captured Sulphur Cave's beauty -- the 
intricate  masses of biological life on the cave walls that resemble the folds 
of 
brain  coral; lacy ceiling gypsum crystals that glitter like starbursts; small 
 yellowish stalactites and stalagmites clinging to the walls and floor. 
Thompson  also documented team members squeezing through dark claustrophobic 
spaces  encrusted with biological goo: "It looked like about 10 people had 
thrown up on  them. And that's how they smelled, too." 
The team collected more of the pencil-lead-thin worms, and a month later, 
DNA  analysis confirmed their genetic uniqueness. Sulphur Cave's worms may be 
the  first hydrogen-sulfide metabolizing organisms ever discovered on land, 
where  they'll be much easier to study than 14,000 feet below the surface 
of the ocean.  This tiny, often-overlooked cave gives scientists an easily 
accessible location  to learn about the kind of environment, and possibly the 
organisms, that may  exist on Mars or the moons of Jupiter. 
"On other planets, those animals are probably going to be bacteria or  
bacteria-like, and they're probably going to be living in environments similar  
to this," Luiszer says. "By studying those things here on Earth, it's going 
to  be a lot easier for (scientists) to figure out where to look for life 
and what  kind of equipment and instruments we'll need." 
Team member Hazel Barton, costar of the IMAX film Journey Into Amazing  
Caves, took some of the light-sensitive worms back to her Northern Kentucky  
University lab for study. She's hoping to determine exactly how the worms, or  
possibly their bacteria, draw hydrogen sulfide and carbon dioxide from the  
atmosphere to live on. "This is the only habitat for (these worms)," she 
says.  "The next closest thing is diving two miles to the bottom of the 
Pacific Ocean.  This is a world-class site."
_http://www.hcn.org/issues/42.4/down-the-wormhole_ 
(http://www.hcn.org/issues/42.4/down-the-wormhole)

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--- Begin Message --- 
I find it interesting that there are some many new "cave" like
buildings......from the new Las Vegas casino project by Jean Nouvel, based
on Caves.....( he got the geology wrong, but cool building ).....The
gambling halls are designed to look like large cave rooms.....
And now the torch at the winter games was obviously inspired by the Naica
Cave....
And now this Taipei performance venue:


http://www.designboom.com/weblog/cat/9/view/9286/mario-bellini-architects-ta
ipei-pop-music-center.html

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--- Begin Message --- 
Joe,

This should be OT but I will stick with this venue for my final post on the 
matter. Your reply is well put, thanks. I thought about our confrontational 
posts last night and below is what I intended to send you this morning.

Joe,

Please disregard my last post. I felt your response of yesterday was somewhat 
rude and responded spontaneously. I should have taken it as deserved criticism 
and let it go. With luck I will see you at the convention.

Fritz

________________________________
From: Joe Ranzau [mailto:jran...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 5:35 PM
To: Fritz Holt
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Minnow

As a recovering prolific poster from around 14 years ago I can appreciate where 
you are coming from.  It took several years of folks gently guiding (bashing me 
over the head) for me to change.

You have much to contribute but your potential is diluted by each posting.

Others have put this much more eloquently than I am capable of. This list is 
not for back and forth chit chat like the GHG listserve often is.


Substantive replies are encouraged. Three word quips while posted are not 
needed but a few are easily tolerated. 37 different back and forth quips cause 
people like my good friend Martha to jump ship and others to filter you out. I 
can easily block all your messages but want to hear what you have to say so I'm 
taking the intervention route. Roger's note was obviously not understood so I 
went for blunt.

This is like a virtual camp fire where discussion and differing opinions are 
encouraged. But just like at a big camp fire if a few folks feel the need to 
have a different conversation you get up from your chairs and take it outside 
the circle.  If you don't someone will throw empty beer cans at you until you 
get the hint.

Please don't take any of this the wrong way. Try not to continue down this path 
because we would hate to resort to the kind of stuff that would make Cheney 
proud.

Respectfully,

Joe

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