texascavers Digest 28 Jan 2010 22:06:46 -0000 Issue 957
Topics (messages 13456 through 13464):
Press
13456 by: Geary Schindel
Re: The always popular caver obituary
13457 by: Geary Schindel
TSA Winter Meeting Membership, TC Access, and Website Changes Now Completed
13458 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
13459 by: germanyj.aol.com
13460 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
Re: Sonora Butterfly
13461 by: Fritz Holt
13462 by: Josh Rubinstein
13463 by: George Veni
13464 by: George Veni
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--- Begin Message ---
I had a boss who told me once that he would never hold me accountable for what
I said to the press, only what the press said I said.
G
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce,
Bill was a great guy and I was saddened to learn of his death. I didn’t know
you guys were friends. Too bad, we could have told some funny Sleazeweasel
stories but back then, most of there were actually pretty grim. LOL.
Geary
From: bmorgan...@aol.com [mailto:bmorgan...@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 11:58 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] The always popular caver obituary
Since obituaries are so much more popular among cavers these days than
theological discussions, even those pertaining to Oztotl, I thought it might be
good to offer this reminiscence of much beloved caver extraordinaire Bill
Berryhill who some of you may have known.
In response to my post concerning Yucatan breccia Roger Moore wrote “Thankee
fer the rocks. Find any nocks while you were there? Roger (for whom the Great
Newt will always be supreme.)"
To which I replied, “There are knockers aplenty in Cancun. It was a touching
moment, I had taken my old caver friend Bill Berryhill who was dying of cancer
on a trip to Cancun. We went to a titty bar and he insisted on expectantly
holding a tissue up for the girls. They had no idea what he was doing and
neither did I. Turns out that his dick had fallen off but he still liked the
smell of a woman and wanted them to wipe their nether parts with the tissue so
he could sniff it!”
Roger replied, “Touching, but gawdawful! I hope his trials are over.”
To which I replied, “And well done too! He was diagnosed and told that he had
only months to live, so he rejected all treatment and lived another three years
during which time he devoted himself to bringing joy to the world and plumbing
to the Old Timers Reunion. It appeared that he would never die, so when he
announced his last Thanksgiving swillfest and feed at his extremely rustic home
along the Haw river in central NC I was too busy to attend. I will never
forgive myself. He was reduced to laying on a couch with a beer drip during the
week long party. When it was all over and the guests were ready to leave he
announced, "It's been great everybody, but the party is over and I'm outta
here. Bye!" Then he died. What a guy! There is a stone in his honor at the OTR
sauna, and every time I see a naked caver chick I think of the kindest most
generous person I have ever known!”
Sniff, Sleaze
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Butch Fralia, our TSA website extraordinaire, has informed me that after
laboring for countless hours in a previously smoke-filled back room, hunched
over a steaming keyboard, that the changes to the TSA membership fees, TEXAS
CAVER access, and to website have been completed!
You'll recall that these motions were made and approved at the TSA Winter
Business meeting at CBSP earlier this month at CBSP.
To recap:
Membership Levels
* Single Membership - $20.00
Voted to change to "Single Membership (online TC) - $15.00" and
"Single Membership (mailed TC) - $25.00"
Other changes made:
* Family Membership - $30.00 - Two votes in TSA Elections
Changes to "Family Membership (online TC) - $20.00" and "Family
Membership (mailed TC) - $30.00"
* Student Membership - $15.00
Changes to "Student Membership (online TC) - $10.00" and
"Student Membership (mailed TC) - $20.00". Add "No voting".
* Libraries - $20.00
Leave. Add "No voting".
TEXAS CAVER access
Voted to make all TC's older than one year now available online to all, add
link on the cascading menu under "Services" and off the announcements on the
home page.
With any luck, this will entice new members to join the TSA and to bring
prodigal members (i.e. Gill) back to the fold!
Still to do:
A suggestion was made for a photos and trip report section where folks could
send Butch (and me) submissions. Butch will add these as soon as YOU send him
something!
Go here: http://www.cavetexas.org/index.html to see what Mr. Fralia has wrought.
Thanks, as always, to Butch for making the modifications so quickly and for his
hard work and dedication to the TSA and maintaining the website!
And a big thanks to all who came out to the Winter meeting and made these
improvements possible.
Mark
TSA - Chair
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How many libraries receive Texas Caver?
julia
-----Original Message-----
From: mark.al...@l-3com.com
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Thu, Jan 28, 2010 2:25 pm
Subject: [Texascavers] TSA Winter Meeting Membership, TC Access, and Website
Changes Now Completed
Butch Fralia, our TSA website extraordinaire, has informed me that after
laboring for countless hours in a previously smoke-filled back room, hunched
over a steaming keyboard, that the changes to the TSA membership fees, TEXAS
CAVER access, and to website have been completed!
You'll recall that these motions were made and approved at the TSA Winter
Business meeting at CBSP earlier this month at CBSP.
To recap:
Membership Levels
Single Membership - $20.00
Voted to change to "Single Membership (online TC) - $15.00" and "Single
Membership (mailed TC) - $25.00"
Other changes made:
Family Membership - $30.00 - Two votes in TSA Elections
Changes to "Family Membership (online TC) - $20.00" and "Family Membership
(mailed TC) - $30.00"
Student Membership - $15.00
Changes to "Student Membership (online TC) - $10.00" and "Student
Membership (mailed TC) - $20.00". Add "No voting".
Libraries - $20.00
Leave. Add "No voting".
TEXAS CAVER access
Voted to make all TC’s older than one year now available online to all, add
link on the cascading menu under "Services" and off the announcements on the
home page.
With any luck, this will entice new members to join the TSA and to bring
prodigal members (i.e. Gill) back to the fold!
Still to do:
A suggestion was made for a photos and trip report section where folks could
send Butch (and me) submissions. Butch will add these as soon as YOU send him
something!
Go here: http://www.cavetexas.org/index.html to see what Mr. Fralia has wrought.
Thanks, as always, to Butch for making the modifications so quickly and for his
hard work and dedication to the TSA and maintaining the website!
And a big thanks to all who came out to the Winter meeting and made these
improvements possible.
Mark
TSA - Chair
=
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It was Texas State (?) in San Marcos, UT, and Baylor, Julia.
The Aggies need to get on the ball!
Mark
________________________________
From: germa...@aol.com [mailto:germa...@aol.com]
Sent: Thu 1/28/2010 2:40 PM
To: Alman, Mark @ EOS; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TSA Winter Meeting Membership, TC Access, and
Website Changes Now Completed
How many libraries receive Texas Caver?
julia
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
George,
This is an interesting report on your early survey of The Caverns of Sonora.
The "Carbide Corner" section of the ICS issue of The Texas Caver has an account
of an early trip into Mayfield Cave by Jimmy Walker and me. This occurred at
the end of 1955 or the beginning of 1956. Jimmy and I always felt that we,
along with Bob Hudson and Ralph Derby, were the second or third group into the
cave after the portion beyond "The Pit" was discovered by the Dallas group in
September, 1955. It is ironic that Jimmy and Bob steered the Dallas group to
Mayfield to avoid being with them on the same weekend at another cave that they
thought would be better. Carl Kunath has documented evidence that there may
have been several groups of "spelunkers" ahead of us into the new discovery. In
any case, Jimmy's portion of our story emphasizes how fragile the far reaches
of the cave were and that damage was inevitable. This is also evidenced by Jack
Burch's comment to you that "the pretty part of the cave is off trail" and to
move through those sections of the cave is to do damage. Jimmy and I agree that
this very early trip was the underground adventure of a lifetime and one that
we will never forget.
I hope that you will allow all of us to see your rendition of the geologic
details when they are complete.
Fritz Holt
-----Original Message-----
From: George Veni [mailto:gv...@warpdriveonline.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 12:34 PM
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly
My "study" of Caverns of Sonora that I referred to in my earlier message is
also a survey. Many years ago, Jack Burch established a precise transit
survey through the commercial section, with a few short bits extending
off-trail. However his sketch was rudimentary and begged for detail. After
several trips to the cave just to talk with the owners and manager (not to
enter the cave), I was given permission to conduct a survey.
We agreed to what in essence is an experiment. I have produced a highly
detailed and precise sketch of the transit survey, loaded with geologic and
other details. On average, sketching 15 m of passage took about 6 hours. The
point was to see if this level of detail and precision (most sketched
features are measured, not sketched by eyeballing their size and position)
would tell us something important about the cave that would otherwise not be
discovered. The answer is, "I don't know yet." I was going back over my
sketches filling in some additional geologic details when the ICS and moving
to New Mexico put that work on the backburner. I'm hoping that this year
I'll finish those geologic details and then look at the results and
determine if the extra effort was worth it beyond a series of lovely,
exquisitely detailed and precise sketches. Depending on those results, I'll
discuss with the owners how the survey should proceed off trail.
Surveying in Caverns of Sonora will never be a TSA or widely open project.
Off trail access is tightly restricted. Jack told me "The pretty part of the
cave is off trail" and it is not shown because to move through those
sections of the cave is to do damage. In fact, the owners ask permission of
each other before going off trail. If additional off trail surveying is
approved, it will be carefully monitored by the owners with each team member
specifically approved for access.
George
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net]
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 10:03 AM
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly
As for there being 7 miles in Sonora, I doubt it, but if
true why hasn't anyone started a serious resurvey project? Could
make a great TSA activity.
Mark
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
George,
The CRF projects now days ask for 4 members on a survey, the fourth is to
detail the surround. They do this with a book that list the different
attributes (ie type of floor, ceiling, etc.). Unfortunately, this list of
attributes was produced for Lechiguiha which gave me some problems when I
was surveying in Cumberland Gap, VA. Also some of attributes required
interpretation as to genesis or mineralogy. But by doing a list you could
produce layers for a computer map and see the spatial relationship of
features. I think it is a great idea. At the least, I think it would be
very valuable to take strikes and dips at each station. Maps be should more
than a pretty wall hanging.
Josh
On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 12:34 PM, George Veni <gv...@warpdriveonline.com>wrote:
> My "study" of Caverns of Sonora that I referred to in my earlier message is
> also a survey. Many years ago, Jack Burch established a precise transit
> survey through the commercial section, with a few short bits extending
> off-trail. However his sketch was rudimentary and begged for detail. After
> several trips to the cave just to talk with the owners and manager (not to
> enter the cave), I was given permission to conduct a survey.
>
> We agreed to what in essence is an experiment. I have produced a highly
> detailed and precise sketch of the transit survey, loaded with geologic and
> other details. On average, sketching 15 m of passage took about 6 hours.
> The
> point was to see if this level of detail and precision (most sketched
> features are measured, not sketched by eyeballing their size and position)
> would tell us something important about the cave that would otherwise not
> be
> discovered. The answer is, "I don't know yet." I was going back over my
> sketches filling in some additional geologic details when the ICS and
> moving
> to New Mexico put that work on the backburner. I'm hoping that this year
> I'll finish those geologic details and then look at the results and
> determine if the extra effort was worth it beyond a series of lovely,
> exquisitely detailed and precise sketches. Depending on those results, I'll
> discuss with the owners how the survey should proceed off trail.
>
> Surveying in Caverns of Sonora will never be a TSA or widely open project.
> Off trail access is tightly restricted. Jack told me "The pretty part of
> the
> cave is off trail" and it is not shown because to move through those
> sections of the cave is to do damage. In fact, the owners ask permission of
> each other before going off trail. If additional off trail surveying is
> approved, it will be carefully monitored by the owners with each team
> member
> specifically approved for access.
>
> George
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net]
> Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 10:03 AM
> To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly
>
> As for there being 7 miles in Sonora, I doubt it, but if
> true why hasn't anyone started a serious resurvey project? Could
> make a great TSA activity.
>
> Mark
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some of the work has been published:
Bogdan Onac, George Veni, and William B. White. 2001. Depositional
environment for metatyuyamunite and related minerals from Caverns of Sonora,
TX (U.S.A.) European Journal of Mineralogy, 13:135-143.
I'd be glad to send a PDF of it to anyone who is interested. The article
includes a silhouette map of the cave, plus a detailed section that I
sketched and which Peter Sprouse drafted for me. That little section of map
gives an idea of the level of detail sketched throughout the cave so far. I
plan to publish all of the information when it's complete.
George
-----Original Message-----
From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com]
I hope that you will allow all of us to see your rendition of the geologic
details when they are complete.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One of the things I'm considering in how to move forward in studying and
surveying the cave is the technologies that are available now that were
unheard of when I started my efforts many years ago. The purpose of the work
is good and useful information. A pretty map is a nice byproduct.
George
From: Josh Rubinstein [mailto:kars...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 2:51 PM
To: George Veni
Cc: Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly
George,
The CRF projects now days ask for 4 members on a survey, the fourth is to
detail the surround. They do this with a book that list the different
attributes (ie type of floor, ceiling, etc.). Unfortunately, this list of
attributes was produced for Lechiguiha which gave me some problems when I
was surveying in Cumberland Gap, VA. Also some of attributes required
interpretation as to genesis or mineralogy. But by doing a list you could
produce layers for a computer map and see the spatial relationship of
features. I think it is a great idea. At the least, I think it would be
very valuable to take strikes and dips at each station. Maps be should more
than a pretty wall hanging.
Josh
On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 12:34 PM, George Veni <gv...@warpdriveonline.com>
wrote:
My "study" of Caverns of Sonora that I referred to in my earlier message is
also a survey. Many years ago, Jack Burch established a precise transit
survey through the commercial section, with a few short bits extending
off-trail. However his sketch was rudimentary and begged for detail. After
several trips to the cave just to talk with the owners and manager (not to
enter the cave), I was given permission to conduct a survey.
We agreed to what in essence is an experiment. I have produced a highly
detailed and precise sketch of the transit survey, loaded with geologic and
other details. On average, sketching 15 m of passage took about 6 hours. The
point was to see if this level of detail and precision (most sketched
features are measured, not sketched by eyeballing their size and position)
would tell us something important about the cave that would otherwise not be
discovered. The answer is, "I don't know yet." I was going back over my
sketches filling in some additional geologic details when the ICS and moving
to New Mexico put that work on the backburner. I'm hoping that this year
I'll finish those geologic details and then look at the results and
determine if the extra effort was worth it beyond a series of lovely,
exquisitely detailed and precise sketches. Depending on those results, I'll
discuss with the owners how the survey should proceed off trail.
Surveying in Caverns of Sonora will never be a TSA or widely open project.
Off trail access is tightly restricted. Jack told me "The pretty part of the
cave is off trail" and it is not shown because to move through those
sections of the cave is to do damage. In fact, the owners ask permission of
each other before going off trail. If additional off trail surveying is
approved, it will be carefully monitored by the owners with each team member
specifically approved for access.
George
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net]
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 10:03 AM
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly
As for there being 7 miles in Sonora, I doubt it, but if
true why hasn't anyone started a serious resurvey project? Could
make a great TSA activity.
Mark
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