texascavers Digest 3 Dec 2008 23:28:43 -0000 Issue 657
Topics (messages 9547 through 9555):
belated Punkin Cave survey trip report
9547 by: Jim Kennedy
Re: KY Cave Fatality
9548 by: Louise Power
Re: book idea
9549 by: John Brooks
Re: cave restoration
9550 by: Jules Jenkins
9553 by: George Veni
Cave potential in The Solitario
9551 by: dirtdoc.comcast.net
9555 by: Matt Turner
Clarification - Texas Natural Areas Survey
9552 by: dirtdoc.comcast.net
9554 by: CaverArch
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--- Begin Message ---
Sorry for the delay, but I went to Mexico soon after the last Punkin trip.
Here is a brief report of our activities. Feel free to republish in
newsletters and other listserves.
-- Jim
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PUNKIN CAVE, Edwards County, Texas
Survey Expedition #10
4-6 November 2008
Jim Kennedy, Expedition Leader
Team one: "Team Davey Jones"
Pete Lindsley once again led a group consisting of Chris Vreeland, Lee Jay
Graves, and Bonnie Longley back to the large breakdown maze (walking passage in
places) trending under the Entrance Room and parallel to Superstition Maze (of
which more will be told later). There was a short delay in the survey, since
known of the returning surveyors could find the correct passage leading them to
their objective. In an almost 8-hour trip they managed to survey 16 shots for
61.70 meters (average 3.89 meters per shot, the longest of the day). They
found snowball formations on the walls in this area, the second place with
snowballs reported from the cave. (The first was underneath Sleepy Hollow.) A
couple of small bat rooms were mapped (probably with Myotis velifer, although
they did not identify the species), and something called Chris' Crazy Crawl.
No more connections were made to Superstition.
Team two: "Team Superstition"
Perennial Superstition team leader Wes Schumacher led the standard Superstition
team of Sandi Calhoun, and Matt and Saj Zappitello back to this complex and
extensive area to knock off a few more leads. Starting at SM6, they put in 15
shots for 32.69 meters of new passage, averaging 2.18m per shot, the shortest
of the day. Only one downward lead was left unsurveyed off this line, but
there are still plenty of leads left in the Superstition Maze, so they will be
back.
Team three: "Team Möbius"
Geary Schindel fielded his second team to the upper levels of the western maze
known as Medusa. He was assisted by Jacqui Thomas, Arron Wertheim, and Gary
Franklin. They managed to get 19 shots of pretty sizable passage, netting
67.54 meters (3.55 meters per shot). One area was christened the Möbius Loop,
and many, many leads still abound in this level.
Team four: "Team Medusa"
Jim Kennedy dove back into the lower nooks and crannies of this partially
solutional, partially breakdown maze with the able assistance of Don Arburn,
Kathleen O'Connor, and Benjamin Schwartz. They started off by hammering out
some cemented rocks to access a good lead noticed by Jim on the March survey.
It opened up nicely, but only went for 5 shots (11.49m) before becoming
impossibly tight. They then picked up some nice rift passage, with a nice
display of flowstone, stalactites, and even a small pool. Small lift tubes and
vents in the floor were pushed and surveyed until they also became sub-human in
size. Jim checked out a lead which he and Benjamin pushed to an extensive
breakdown maze which eventually lead back into solutional passage. This
occupied the majority of the survey time, but Don had to miss out on most of it
since a tight downtrending tube kept him out. No more low leads remain, but
there are plenty of things left to do above the current survey. In 8.5 hours
they managed to put in 43 shots and map another 128.09 meters of passage,
averaging 2.98 meters per shot.
Team five: "Team Deep Cave"
Jerry Atkinson led John Brooks, Mary Thiese, and Joe Mitchell back to Deep for
the first survey there in a couple of years. They went to the Aragonite Room
area and surveyed 97.10 meters in 8.5 hours. Deep now has 2730.4m of surveyed
passage, and is 77.6m deep. It has moved up to #14 on the Texas Long Cave
List, and remains at #19 on the Texas Deep Cave List.
In summary, four survey teams in Punkin Cave put in another 93 shots of survey
and added another 290.02m of passage to the length of the cave. At the end of
the last (March) expedition, the adjusted length of the cave was 1826.4m and
the depth was 63m. The new length of the cave is now 2116.4m, moving it to the
#20 spot on the Texas Long Cave list. The depth has not changed, and the cave
remains at #28 on the Texas Deep Cave list. I want to thank all the dedicated
surveyors for returning to Punkin repeatedly, helping us to unravel it's
mysteries.
Confidentiality Note: This email and any attachment to it are confidential and
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
About three or four years ago, the Bureau of Land Management prosecuted a local
(southern Oregon) man for digging up not only artifacts, but also human remains
from a shelter cave in the Black Rock Desert in northwestern Nevada and selling
them on the artifact blackmarket. Apparently, the artifacts didn't carry much
of a penalty, but the biggy charges of disturbing and trying to sell human
remains (a child's mummy) really got him a hefty sentence. When he was first
arrested, they set a heavy bail, but he bailed out and stayed out until he
tried to hire an undercover cop to bump off the judge.
From: pns_for@bellsouth.netTo: texascavers@texascavers.com;
dlocklea...@gmail.com; mark.al...@l-3com.com; wdwal...@windstream.net;
power_louise@hotmail.comCC: epcaver@gmail.comSubject: Re: [Texascavers] KY Cave
FatalityDate: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 16:51:49 -0600
The TN pothunter died in Buzzard Cave, on the West Fork of the Red River, in
Christian Co., KY. This cave is north of the very famous Glover Cave. Many
caves in this area have been pothunted severely in the past and several looters
have actually been caught and arrested while in the illegal act of digging for
artifacts and burials. In fact the Evansville Metropolitan Grotto did a grotto
trip to Glover Cave last weekend. Up on a shelf inside the entrance were
several skulls recently dug. Info from Ernie Payne.
Preston
=====================================
----- Original Message -----
From: Louise Power
To: Bill Walden ; Mark Alman ; David Locklear ; Texas Cavers
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 2:44 PM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Tennessee cave fatality
To say nothing of illegal on public lands and, in many states, on private
lands. And immoral in general. They are stealing the heritage of first
Americans for their own profits.
From: wdwalden@windstream.netTo: mark.al...@l-3com.com; dlocklea...@gmail.com;
texascavers@texascavers.comDate: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 15:30:43 -0500Subject: Re:
[Texascavers] Tennessee cave fatality
Hate to sound callous but pot holing (digging for native American artifacts) is
popular in Kentucky and Tennessee. Those people really tear things up and leave
their trash - lots. Lesson learned to late!
Best to all,
Bill Walden
----- Original Message -----
From: mark.al...@l-3com.com
To: David ; Texascavers Mailing List
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 3:00 PM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Tennessee cave fatality
Sounds more like a trench collapse than a cave collapse, David. Thanks,Mark
From Foxnews.com:HOPKINSVILLE, Ky. — A Tennessee man has died after a cave
collapsed in western Kentucky while he was digging for Native American
artifacts.Christian County Coroner Dorris Lamb says 42-year-old Devin William
Peters, of Clarksville, Tenn., was killed in the accident.Christian County
Rescue Team director Randy Graham told the Kentucky New Era that Peters and
another man were at the cave, located between Pembroke and Oak Grove, when the
walls of an excavation trench collapsed.The second man was above ground and
telephoned for help at 4 p.m. CST Monday.Graham said Peters' remains were found
eight feet below the floor of the cave, buried under about four feet of dirt.
Graham said the remains were removed about four hours after the collapse.
From: David [mailto:dlocklea...@gmail.com]Sent: Tue 12/2/2008 1:22 PMTo:
Texascavers Mailing ListSubject: [Texascavers] Tennessee cave fatality
Were these 2 guys
cavers?http://www.kentucky.com/471/story/612969.html---------------------------------------------------------------------Visit
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--- Begin Message ---
How about "1001 topics for Cavetex"....seems like Mr Locklear has a good start
on this book.....
Sent from wmy iPhone
On Dec 2, 2008, at 3:19 PM, Philip L Moss <philipm...@juno.com> wrote:
On Tue, 2 Dec 2008 14:06:00 -0600 David <dlocklea...@gmail.com> writes:
Here is a book idea for a caver looking to for ideas on writing a
book.
snip<
"1000 Caves I must explore before I die"
Or how about
"1001 Cave critters I must see before I die"
I like,
"1001 Speleothems I must see before I die"
David
Perhaps these titles could be followed up by a book entitled:
1001 Caves Most Damaged by Cavers
There are already enough places that have been loved to death by cavers.
Philip L. Moss
philipm...@juno.com
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Click here to find experienced pros to help with your home improvement project.
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--- Begin Message ---
I have a request from a UT-Austin geology professor for information about cave
restoration - how to do a cave restoration. I'd appreciate any info. websites,
articles, etc. that I can forward on to this professor. Specifically, looking
for proper methods for lint removal, cleaning flowstone and other formations,
repairing broken speleothems.
please contact me off list.
thanks,
julie
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jules,
I'm replying to everyone for those not aware of the book Cave Conservation
and Restoration. At 600 pages long and with high quality material, it is by
far the most comprehensive, complete, and up-to-date source of information
on the topic. It was published by the NSS two years ago and can be purchased
through the NSS Bookstore for $37 (member price) at:
http://nssbookstore.org/index.php?mode=store
<http://nssbookstore.org/index.php?mode=store&submode=showitem&itemnumber=07
-0013-2006> &submode=showitem&itemnumber=07-0013-2006
George
From: Jules Jenkins [mailto:julesje...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 1:44 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] re: cave restoration
I have a request from a UT-Austin geology professor for information about
cave restoration - how to do a cave restoration. I'd appreciate any info.
websites, articles, etc. that I can forward on to this professor.
Specifically, looking for proper methods for lint removal, cleaning
flowstone and other formations, repairing broken speleothems.
please contact me off list.
thanks,
julie
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have spent 8 or 9 months (literally - over about 17 years) in The Solitario
and Big Bend Ranch in the 70's running the field programs for the Texas Natural
Areas Survey (NAS) (those reports formed the scientific justification for the
acquisition of the land from Mr. Anderson), using it as a field location from
1967 on for numerous university geology programs, and for field trips for the
Houston Geological Society and the American Association of Petrolium
Geologists. I have walked essentially all of The Solitario and Fresno Canyon
several times and the most likely places for caves many times. No Luck as far
as real caves are concerned, although there are many shelters and
archaeological sites. Tom Meador also gave it a good shot, with the same
result.
Some surprise could always show up as I did not crawl over every inch (The
Solitario is huge and is 7 miles across, essentially filling an entire USGS
7.5-minute quad), but it has been pretty carefully looked at by some really
experienced cavers. Ridge-walking in the Guads has shown us that you can walk
within a few feet of a significant cave and not know it. The best geological
settings in The Solitario and Fesno Canyon for caves, however, are not
encouraging.
It is remote, geologically fascinating, and wonderful country. I suggest you
visit if you can and try to find something that we did not see. I am so
pleased that the NAS field work that I lead for those 6 years resulted in the
acquisition of Big Bend Ranch as a Texas State Park. At the time we were doing
the work, we were definitely not sure if we were doing something meaningful or
just pissing in the wind. If you are into scenery and secret waterholes and
not caves, the west side of Fresno Canyon is even more wonderful.
By the way, other public acquisitions that resulted directly or indirectly from
the Texas NAS scientific studies included the Lower Canyons of the Rio Grande,
Mt Livermore, Enchanted Rock (Ernst Kastening did the geology), Rosillos Mts,
Elephant Mountain, Devil's Stinkhole (I hired Ronnie Fieseler and other Texas
cavers to help out on that one and some others). There is at least one other
special parcel that has only recently been acquired but is being kept quiet as
ingress and egress is being negotiated. Other studies included the Franklin
Mts, Hueco Mts, Matagordo Island, the Breaks of the Canadian River, Capote
Falls, and the Blue Elbow Swamp on the Lousiana border. There are some other
Wildlife Management and other areas that also have benefited.
DirtDoc
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Bill Bentley" <ca...@caver.net>
Matt (Turner),
I was there in September 2007 with a group of hikers for a weekend.... I
didn't see anything that looked like a cave or even cave like... We hiked in
some of the canyons and they look a lot like the ones in Big Bend National
Park, only not as tall... It is pretty remote and if I remember we hiked about
13 to 14 miles round trip...
Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow, that's some really interesting information. Has there ever been another
attempt to get something like that going again/would there even be a need?
Sounds like I owe you a million thanks as many of the parks you mentioned
greatly influenced my love of nature, and I've spent many many hours in them as
a child and an adult.
Matt Turner
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without
accepting it." - Aristotle
"Empty pockets never held anyone back.Only empty heads and empty hearts can do
that."- Norman Vincent Peale
________________________________
From: "dirt...@comcast.net" <dirt...@comcast.net>
To: Bill Bentley <ca...@caver.net>; Matt Turner <kat...@yahoo.com>;
texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 3:48:42 PM
Subject: [Texascavers] Cave potential in The Solitario
I have spent 8 or 9 months (literally - over about 17 years) in The Solitario
and Big Bend Ranch in the 70's running the field programs for the Texas Natural
Areas Survey (NAS) (those reports formed the scientific justification for the
acquisition of the land from Mr. Anderson), using it as a field location from
1967 on for numerous university geology programs, and for field trips for the
Houston Geological Society and the American Association of Petrolium
Geologists. I have walked essentially all of The Solitario and Fresno Canyon
several times and the most likely places for caves many times. No Luck as far
as real caves are concerned, although there are many shelters and
archaeological sites. Tom Meador also gave it a good shot, with the same
result.
Some surprise could always show up as I did not crawl over every inch (The
Solitario is huge and is 7 miles across, essentially filling an entire USGS
7.5-minute quad), but it has been pretty carefully looked at by some really
experienced cavers. Ridge-walking in the Guads has shown us that you can walk
within a few feet of a significant cave and not know it. The best geological
settings in The Solitario and Fesno Canyon for caves, however, are not
encouraging.
It is remote, geologically fascinating, and wonderful country. I suggest you
visit if you can and try to find something that we did not see. I am so
pleased that the NAS field work that I lead for those 6 years resulted in the
acquisition of Big Bend Ranch as a Texas State Park. At the time we were doing
the work, we were definitely not sure if we were doing something meaningful or
just pissing in the wind. If you are into scenery and secret waterholes and
not caves, the west side of Fresno Canyon is even more wonderful.
By the way, other public acquisitions that resulted directly or indirectly from
the Texas NAS scientific studies included the Lower Canyons of the Rio Grande,
Mt Livermore, Enchanted Rock (Ernst Kastening did the geology), Rosillos Mts,
Elephant Mountain, Devil's Stinkhole (I hired Ronnie Fieseler and other Texas
cavers to help out on that one and some others). There is at least one other
special parcel that has only recently been acquired but is being kept quiet as
ingress and egress is being negotiated. Other studies included the Franklin
Mts, Hueco Mts, Matagordo Island, the Breaks of the Canadian River, Capote
Falls, and the Blue Elbow Swamp on the Lousiana border. There are some other
Wildlife Management and other areas that also have benefited.
DirtDoc
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Bill Bentley" <ca...@caver.net>
Matt (Turner),
I was there in September 2007 with a group of hikers for a weekend.... I
didn't see anything that looked like a cave or even cave like... We hiked in
some of the canyons and they look a lot like the ones in Big Bend National
Park, only not as tall... It is pretty remote and if I remember we hiked about
13 to 14 miles round trip...
Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Clarification: The Texas Natural Areas Survey only existed for 6 years in the
1970�s and was the brainchild of Don Kennard, a Texas Senator from Ft. Worth
who later lived in Austin. He recruited me while I was working in Austin at
the Bureau of Economic Geology. Don was the politician, fund raiser, and
enabler, while I was the scientific program director and field manager. There
was also a favorable political environment in Austin for the NAS in the early
1970's with Bob Armstrong the Land Commissioner and Bob Burleson one of the
Parks and Wildlife Directors. I lived in West Texas for about 17 years and was
in and out of Big Bend Ranch numerous times before and after the life of the
NAS.
DirtDoc
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the further information on the program. I wonder if it served as a
model for the currently operating Florida Natural Areas Inventory. The Florida
Cave Survey provided input on karst and caves for this similar land acquisition
planning program.
Roger Moore
GHG
In a message dated 12/03/08 16:13:11 Central Standard Time, dirt...@comcast.net
writes:
Clarification: The Texas Natural Areas Survey only existed for 6 years in the
1970’s and was the brainchild of Don Kennard, a Texas Senator from Ft. Worth
who later lived in Austin. He recruited me while I was working in Austin at
the Bureau of Economic Geology. Don was the politician, fund raiser, and
enabler, while I was the scientific program director and field manager. There
was also a favorable political environment in Austin for the NAS in the early
1970's with Bob Armstrong the Land C ommissioner and Bob Burleson one of the
Parks and Wildlife Directors. I lived in West Texas for about 17 years and was
in and out of Big Bend Ranch numerous times before and after the life of the
NAS.
DirtDoc
--- End Message ---
