texascavers Digest 4 Dec 2009 23:23:24 -0000 Issue 904
Topics (messages 12810 through 12818):
book review: Cave Paintings
12810 by: Mixon Bill
Re: Nutty Putty Cave
12811 by: JerryAtkin.aol.com
12812 by: Gill Edigar
PBSS December meeting
12813 by: J. LaRue Thomas
Nutty Putty questions unanswered
12814 by: Gill Edigar
12816 by: Mark Minton
Re: Out of town caver looking to cave in SA, TX
12815 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
Caver breakups
12817 by: wesley s
Address for Ed Alexander Memorial
12818 by: Denise P
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--- Begin Message ---
"Cave Paintings and the Human Spirit: The Origin of Creativity and
Belief." David S. Whitley. Prometheus Books, Amherst, New York; 2009.
ISBN 978-1-59102-636-5. 6 by 9 inches, 322 pages, hardbound. $25.95.
This is the sort of book that says more about the mind of an
archaeologist than it does about what he is studying. The paleolithic
cave art of Europe is undeniably old and some of it is undeniably
large. And much of it contains identifiable images of kinds of
animals, something I suspect many of today's artists couldn't make.
But most of it is a disorganized mess, and it can't be called great
art even by today's very relaxed standards that would admit, say, Andy
Warhol's "Campbell's Soup Can."
Why stone-age men put all those graffiti on cave walls is of course
unknowable, but that hasn't stopped people from thinking they know,
hunting magic through sexual imagery to the latest theory, shamanism.
Whitley, a North American archaeologist who specializes in rock art,
supports the shamanism idea, based on what he knows, or thinks he
knows, about the origins of rock art over here. A connection with cave
art is the presence on the walls of, besides the famous animals,
various patterns such as cross-hatches, arrays of dots, zigzags, and
spirals that are the sort of visions a shaman sees during a trance and
the rest of us see under the influence of certain drugs or at the
onset of a migraine headache. If I were to see such things on a cave
wall, I'd think of a third-grader's doodles during a boring arithmetic
lesson. An array of handprints on a wall, made by coloring the palm
with ochre and pressing is against the wall, is to him clearly the
result of a "ritual" process; I'd be more likely to think of an
unsupervised six-year-old with finger paints and a nice clean wall.
Aside from the author's visits to Chauvet and the Volp caves in
France, there isn't much in this book about the title subject, cave
paintings. The bulk of the book concerns a controversy over the date
of some surface petroglyphs in Portugal, petroglyphs in California,
and the author's musings about shamanism as the original religion.--
Bill Mixon
----------------------------------------
Always forgive your enemies. Nothing annoys them more.
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You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
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--- Begin Message ---
I agree with Geary. The rescuers have been requested by the Utah Search
and Rescue Group to not make public statements concerning the rescue until
an official report and accompanying statement are released to the public
from the organizations that were responsible for the rescue. We'll know a lot
more about the whole affair once that process is completed.
Jerry.
In a message dated 12/3/2009 9:22:16 P.M. Central Standard Time,
gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org writes:
David and others,
There is a good thread on the NSS Cavers Forum under cave rescue on the
Nutty Putty rescue. I think you'll find that the rescue in the cave was run
and directed by NSS cavers and they made an outstanding attempt at rescue
under very difficult conditions They received excellent support from the
local rescue service and the sherriff's department. Andy Armstrong, a very
well known caver and NSS member worked on the rescue and has made an attempt
to describe the conditions in which they worked. Andy was on my ICS
Valdina Farm Sinkhole trip, along with his wife Bonnie. They are outstanding
cavers.
It is very easy to Monday morning quarterback a very difficult rescue
attempt. These folks are burned out and need to degas for a while. I'm sure
that the full story will come out in time.
Geary
-----Original Message-----
From: David [mailto:dlocklea...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 7:33 PM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] Nutty Putty Cave
One news source claims a passage in the cave known as the Ladder,
will be filled with rocks and debris.
It also claims a concrete bunker will be placed at the cave entrance.
I think the cave needs to be completely and thoroughly documented before
such
that action is taken. A high quality video needs to be made of the cave
with
a good documentary explaining the history and science of the cave,
before it is sealed permanently.
I think the general public needs to know how much tax-money is being
spent and what
the alternatives for use of that money are. For example, they could
use the money to offer a training course in body recovery techniques,
and money could be raised in the course to
help fund the Mr. Jone's memorial.
I think an expert team of cavers needs to be able to provide an
independent report on the
Ladder Passage and the alternative choices for the removal of the
remains of Mr. Jones.
Had this been a caver stuck in a horizontal squeeze, there would have
been plenty of time
to form a rescue plan. But in this tragic case, the rescuers had to
go with what they had.
I don't have any blame towards them, but I am curious why they gave
up, and what qualifications they really had. For example, how many
of the rescuers would have been
able to make it thru the entrance of Airman's on their own without
help or guidance ? Were there any qualified cavers on the rescue
team or just fire-fighters who had completed a certified cave rescue
training course ? Were there rescuers down there that had never
even taken a cave rescue training course ?
Even if the rescuers were not qualified to be doing this kind of
rescue, you can't blame them.
The victim in question, made so many poor choices that he has to take
all the blame. Was there not anybody in his caving group capable of
helping him ? If so, why couldn't he recognize the danger he was
putting himself and the future of his kids, and grandkids, and parents
in ? For me, it is hard not to feel a sense of bitterness towards
him. His tiny mistake affected so many peoples lives in a very
tragic way.
I would rather see his remains buried in a fancy marble vault next to
the cave entrance with a marble statue of a caver, and engraved
inscriptions on the wall about caving safely.
I would rather the entrance remain open but with a secure fence around
it, and a viewing platform for the general public and gawkers to come
and peer down into the hole where John Jones died. If the fenced
area were big enough, then a wild-life exhibit could be set up, like
a bear or something.
David Locklear
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So, how come nobody's giving us the details of the most important event of
the rescue--where the rescuers dropped the victim? That needs to be
discussed and analysed at length and in public so that similar things can be
avoided in the future. Right now there's nothing but rumors about it--some
of them bad. That sort of silence scares me. Is somebody trying to cover
something up? I've learned to be a little leery of the "official report"
being the "truthful report" of whatever took place.
--Ediger
On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 9:41 PM, <jerryat...@aol.com> wrote:
> I agree with Geary. The rescuers have been requested by the Utah Search
> and Rescue Group to not make public statements concerning the rescue until
> an official report and accompanying statement are released to the public
> from the organizations that were responsible for the rescue. We'll know a
> lot more about the whole affair once that process is completed.
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Greetings, All
The regularly scheduled monthly meeting of the Permian Basin Speleological
Society will be on Tuesday December 8th, at 7:00 pm, in the back
room at Murray's Deli which is located at 3211 West Wadley in Midland.
Topics of discussion, etc: Election of Officers, Christmas Party, 5 Mouth,
other possible caving trips, reports on Carlsbad rock haul and SWR in
Albuquerque, whatever else...
I (Jacqui) will be in Albuquerque and will not be responding to any emails
until Monday.
For further information contact an officer: Jacqui Thomas
jlrbi...@sonoratx.net , Sharon Long sharon_long2...@yahoo.com , or Bill
Bentley ca...@caver.net
Regarding The Hole News (especially trip reports): Kel Thomas
ktho...@sonoratx.net
PBSS web page:
http://www.caver.net/pbss/pbss.html
The Permian Basin Speleological Society was founded in October 1983 and was
chartered as the 300th grotto of the National Speleological Society on
January 18, 1984. The Permian Basin Speleological Society is an affiliated
Grotto or Caving club with the Texas Speleological Association and the
Southwestern Region of the National Speleological Society and supports the
cave conservation ethics of the National Speleological Society.
National Speleological Society web page:
http://www.caves.org/
Texas Speleological Association web page:
http://www.cavetexas.org
Southwestern Region of the NSS web page:
http://www.caves.org/region/swr/
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On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 8:08 AM, Scott McCrea <sc...@swaygogear.com> wrote:
> Andy Armstrong answers your quesiton here:
> http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?p=79297#p79297
...and Geary Schindel wrote:
What is reported in the popular press is rarely correct in these
incidents and Andy does a good job explaining it. I think this is the link
to the discussion board of the incident
http://www.forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9399
Neither one of these forums discussed the victim dropping incident in
detail. How was the anchor rigged? Who rigged it? Who checked it? What sort
of back-up was provided? What was the hauling procedure? Communication? Who
was actually "in charge" of the immediate hauling operation (both giving
orders and pulling on the rope) at that time--sheriff, rescue team, who? How
far had the victim been moved when the anchor failed? What were the results
of the failure and fall to the victim? What were the physics of the passage,
the slot, and the victim's position in it--both before and after the
dropping incident? Is the 'gag order' merely a delaying tactic designed to
work out a cover story to mislay somebody's negligence? Those are the
details we need. All this secrecy and 'official report' business has left me
with some extreme doubt about not only the Sheriff's Department's
over-sensitivity to criticism but also about what really took place in Nutty
Putty and a deliberate attempt to circumvent the truth. I'm willing to hope
and to accept that that may not be what's happening but from my vantage
point a few thousand miles away and sketchy, evasive email reports this
wishy-washy forthcoming of the details surely has become convoluted within
my otherwise open powers of observation and logic--toward the negative. Can
anybody else see that?
--Sorry
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--- Begin Message ---
I have heard third hand (from the friend of a friend of one
of the rescuers) that it was not a bolt that pulled out as I had
previously stated (based on my reading of the news reports), but
rather a natural anchor that failed. The rock apparently broke at
some sort of intermediate tie-off or redirect of the hauling
system. The haul system was apparently quite long due to the tight
and circuitous nature of the passage, it had redirects, and anchor
options were few. It is possible that the passage was even too
narrow to get a drill into to set bolts along the way. The rock was
also supposedly pretty shitty, so it might be that bolts wouldn't
have held there even if they could have been set. In any event,
there did not seem to be a lot of rigging options and its hard to say
whether they could have done anything substantially
differently. When you have a long system such as they did, the
failure of an intermediate anchor would necessarily introduce slack
into the system, and it was obviously enough to drop the victim back
into the slot in this case.
My assumption that a bolt pulled out when news reports said
an anchor failed reminds me of one of my favorite stories: Three
scientists were walking along a country road in Scotland and saw a
black sheep in a field. The first guy said, "They have black sheep
in Scotland." The second said, "Well, they have at least one black
sheep in Scotland." The third said, "They have at least one sheep in
Scotland that is black on at least one side." It is risky to make
assumptions...
Mark Minton
Ediger wrote:
On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 8:08 AM, Scott McCrea <sc...@swaygogear.com> wrote:
Andy Armstrong answers your quesiton here:
http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?p=79297#p79297
...and Geary Schindel wrote:
What is reported in the popular press is rarely correct in these
incidents and Andy does a good job explaining it. I think this is
the link to the discussion board of the incident
http://www.forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9399
Neither one of these forums discussed the victim dropping incident
in detail. How was the anchor rigged? Who rigged it? Who checked it?
What sort of back-up was provided? What was the hauling procedure?
Communication? Who was actually "in charge" of the immediate hauling
operation (both giving orders and pulling on the rope) at that
time--sheriff, rescue team, who? How far had the victim been moved
when the anchor failed? What were the results of the failure and
fall to the victim? What were the physics of the passage, the slot,
and the victim's position in it--both before and after the dropping
incident? Is the 'gag order' merely a delaying tactic designed to
work out a cover story to mislay somebody's negligence? Those are
the details we need. All this secrecy and 'official report' business
has left me with some extreme doubt about not only the Sheriff's
Department's over-sensitivity to criticism but also about what
really took place in Nutty Putty and a deliberate attempt to
circumvent the truth. I'm willing to hope and to accept that that
may not be what's happening but from my vantage point a few thousand
miles away and sketchy, evasive email reports this wishy-washy
forthcoming of the details surely has become convoluted within my
otherwise open powers of observation and logic--toward the negative.
Can anybody else see that?
--Sorry
You may reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
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--- Begin Message ---
Welcome back to TX, Shelly!
We'll see what we can do.
Anyone in the SA area interested in helping Shelly out?
Please contact her, if interested.
Thanks,
Mark
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Shelly Arreguin <cavin...@gmail.com>
To: chair...@cavetexas.org
Sent: Wed, December 2, 2009 2:00:08 PM
Subject: Out of town caver looking to cave in TX
Howdy,
I currently live in Seattle, WA but am a TX native. I am coming to San
Antonio, TX to visit with my family on December 16th through Dec. 30th.
I am looking to do some caving in TX while I am in the area. I am
wondering if there will be any trips/projects that I might join while I
am in the area? Or if there are perhaps some people that wouldn't mind
having me tag along on their adventures? In addition, I am also
interested in going down to Carlsbad to assist in the Endless
restoration project for the Dec 19 and 20th dates. If there is someone
else who is going up to Carlsbad for that project I would love to
carpool with them and would of course contribute gas money for the trip.
I am planning on bringing my vertical gear (not rope though), knee pads,
lights, helmet, etc... So, I am essentially down for anything...
A little about me:
I am a second year Ph.D. student in Materials Science & Engineering at
the University of Washington-Seattle. I obtained my bachelors degree in
Chemistry at the University of Colorado at Boulder. I work on designing
high surface area ceramics to be used as substrates for catalysts for
fuel cell operation. I am a newish caver, but with that being said,
went to ICS this year and did some vertical caving and horizontal caves
at the convention. With Logans cave being one of my fave caves while I
was down in TX. I also went to the TAG fall Cave In this year at
Lookout Mt in GA did some pit hoppin and enjoyed wondering around Byers
Cave this fall. I love hiking (I lived in the Rockies for 6 years who
wouldn't), so I am absolutely cool with having to trek a ways to get to
the mouth of the cave.
At any rate, if you know anyone who wouldn't mind having me tag along on
some cave trips/projects during my time in TX I would be most excited!
Thanks
Shelly
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I Just had a good chuckle over an article in the Dec 2009 NSS
news on Inter-caver breakups. Best piece of advice was not to let the EX push
you out of territory. Go in that cave again and don’t be afraid to revisit an
area you formerly caved together. This includes grotto meetings. I think this
is really good advice and should be heeded. I've lost contact with some cool
cavers for exactly this reason and it's a shame.
Wes~
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--- Begin Message ---
FYI, in case you want to google a map.
Cheers,
Denise
From: str...@childinc.org
To: pepabe...@hotmail.com
We have never used an address because the ranch is spread out and straddles a
county line. But several years ago the ambulance drivers and the UPS delivery
folks got tired of driving around and gave a number that makes no sense to me.
We are nearer Cypress Mill and Henly , and Hammet’s crossing than Johnson
City but our “street address” out of Johnson City
#339 Ulrich Rd. Johnson City, Blanco County Texas
They tell me it works on google but be careful using with a Gamin. The woman
who speaks through the one in my truck gets all confused when near the ranch
and tells me to turn where there are no roads. Good Luck – if you get lost find
the Perdernales Falls State Park. We are on their Eastern Fence line.
From: Denise P [mailto:pepabe...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 3:09 PM
To: James Strickland
Subject: FW: Wesley Schumacher commented on your wall post...
I will be there on Sunday for the Memorial. Would be helpful to have a street
address with zip so I can google a map (the one on your website is hard to
read). Would be very helpful to add this to your website.
Thanks,
Denise
> Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 11:35:58 -0800
> To: pepabe...@hotmail.com
> From: notification+yksg...@facebookmail.com
> Subject: Wesley Schumacher commented on your wall post...
>
> Wesley Schumacher commented on your wall post:
>
> "Edward Alexander
> November 25, 1942 - October 17, 2009
>
> A celebration
> of Ed Alexander's life will take place on
> Sunday, Dec. 6, 2009, 11:00 a.m. - 6:00 p.m.
> At Flat Creek Ranch (http://www.facebook.com/l/92d8c;www.txsranch.com)
>
> Directions and Map (it's about an hour's drive from Austin):
> http://www.facebook.com/l/92d8c;www.txsranch.com/directions.htm
>
> Hilltop Ceremony (accessible) to begin at 12:00 noon
> Bring a chair or blanket
> Second line will proceed (with your instrument of choice) to Blue Hall for
> lunch around 3:00 p.m.
> Bring Potluck, side dishes, desserts, beverages
> There will be meat, potato salad, cobbler
> A family photo album will be available if you want to add a picture, write
> something, or include a memento.
> Camping is available beginning Friday, 6:00 p.m.- Sunday 6:00 p.m.
> Overnight Accommodations for cabins and rooms will be provided upon advanced
> request Friday and Saturday nights.
> For Camping and/or Accommodations
> Contact James Strickland by E-mail at: str...@childinc.org"
>
>
> To see the comment thread, follow the link below:
> http://www.facebook.com/n/?%2Fprofile.php&v=feed&story_fbid=1217226363996&id=1628992961&mid=17f6d4cG1f86d9b6G4234586G36
>
> Thanks,
> The Facebook Team
>
> ___
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