Re: [time-nuts] OT loosing things

2010-11-13 Thread Mike S
At 08:15 PM 11/12/2010, Mike Feher wrote... Relax GFY ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] OT loosing things - CLOSED!!!

2010-11-13 Thread Steve Rooke
On 13/11/2010, Mike S mi...@flatsurface.com wrote: At 08:15 PM 11/12/2010, Mike Feher wrote... Relax GFY Right! I started this light hearted thread and specifically asked subscribers to comment via PM but now it has come down to this sort of public attitude. PLEASE MAKE NO MORE COMMENTS ON

Re: [time-nuts] OT loosing things

2010-11-13 Thread Chuck Harris
Mike S, We also used to be a polite group... until you came along. -Chuck Harris Mike S wrote: At 08:15 PM 11/12/2010, Mike Feher wrote... Relax GFY ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to

[time-nuts] ADEV

2010-11-13 Thread Mike Feher
I sure do agree, that with very low data rate systems it is significant. In fact, when David Allan Fred Walls came up with the proposal of using this measurement as an FOM for oscillators over 30 years ago, digital communication rates were slow, and, the measurement was a good one. Due to the

Re: [time-nuts] OT loosing things

2010-11-13 Thread Mike S
This is interesting. I responded to a dismissive, condescending, personal reply which was telling me how to behave with one using the same style so the OP would understand it, yet you ignored the original and choose to criticize me. You have an unusual definition of polite. But, it's not my

Re: [time-nuts] ADEV

2010-11-13 Thread Magnus Danielson
On 11/13/2010 02:20 PM, Mike Feher wrote: I sure do agree, that with very low data rate systems it is significant. In fact, when David Allan Fred Walls came up with the proposal of using this measurement as an FOM for oscillators over 30 years ago, digital communication rates were slow, and,

Re: [time-nuts] OT loosing things

2010-11-13 Thread Chuck Harris
Mike S, How is your attempt at controlling the content of this group any different from Mike F's asking you to be tolerant? Any post where you wield to the F word (cloaked or otherwise) against one of your fellow netizines, is not polite. As to moderation: John Ackerman owns this group, guides

Re: [time-nuts] ADEV

2010-11-13 Thread Mike Feher
I agree with all of the comments. My problem now is attempting to fight an internal Gov't battle, where there is too much emphasis on ADEV, as an indicator to overall system performance. Thanks for all the replies. Regards - Mike Mike B. Feher, EOZ Inc. 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell, NJ, 07731

Re: [time-nuts] ADEV

2010-11-13 Thread Magnus Danielson
Hi Bob, On 11/13/2010 03:05 PM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi I see ADEV not as a solution to a system design problem, but an oscillator measurement issue. If you look at the measures being used in the 60's, most of them had serious statistical flaws. You could measure them several ways and get

Re: [time-nuts] OT loosing things

2010-11-13 Thread Mike S
At 09:01 AM 11/13/2010, Chuck Harris wrote... How is your attempt at controlling the content of this group any different from Mike F's asking you to be tolerant? First, his was a demand, not a request. Second, his was personally directed. Third, I made a comment, addressed to no one in

Re: [time-nuts] OT loosing things

2010-11-13 Thread William H. Fite
Mike, one way or another, the members of the list have formed their judgments regarding your posts. John has asked that we let it go. Please honor his request. On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 9:47 AM, Mike S mi...@flatsurface.com wrote: At 09:01 AM 11/13/2010, Chuck Harris wrote... How is your

Re: [time-nuts] ADEV

2010-11-13 Thread jimlux
Mike Feher wrote: I sure do agree, that with very low data rate systems it is significant. In fact, when David Allan Fred Walls came up with the proposal of using this measurement as an FOM for oscillators over 30 years ago, digital communication rates were slow, and, the measurement was a good

Re: [time-nuts] ADEV

2010-11-13 Thread jimlux
Magnus Danielson wrote: Hi Bob, snip I think the system applications for short-term stability measurements was quite clear, and was brought out specifically. Basically, these are all systems where there is some storage or delay and you are comparing a signal generated/recorded at some

Re: [time-nuts] ADEV

2010-11-13 Thread Bob Camp
Hi I don't see anybody arguing that systems work better when there's a high ADEV than a low ADEV. Most of the papers are heading in the direction of it doesn't catch all of the problems I worry about. Based on what systems need and what ADEV measures, I don't find that a particularly

Re: [time-nuts] ADEV

2010-11-13 Thread Magnus Danielson
On 11/13/2010 04:01 PM, jimlux wrote: Mike Feher wrote: I sure do agree, that with very low data rate systems it is significant. In fact, when David Allan Fred Walls came up with the proposal of using this measurement as an FOM for oscillators over 30 years ago, digital communication rates

Re: [time-nuts] Temperature sensors and bridge amps

2010-11-13 Thread Richard Karlquist
The HP E9183A achieved 1 millidegree over -55 to +85C in a single oven.  The time lag was dealt with by adding a double integrator to PID. Rick Karlquist N6RK On Fri 12/11/10 8:26 AM , Bill Hawkins wrote: in the heater control loop. Of course, you can't get to a millidegree from ambient

Re: [time-nuts] ADEV

2010-11-13 Thread jimlux
Magnus Danielson wrote: One of the big meetings on this topic was in the NASA Goddard space center, and the result of that is found in the NASA Special Publication 80 (SP-80): http://hdl.handle.net/2060/19660001092 Un the part 1 User's viewpoint and requirements First article in there is

[time-nuts] 8 bps

2010-11-13 Thread wa1...@att.net
Hi Jim, Is BPSK the modulation used on such an 8bps link for DSN? If so, any idea what limit of C/N is used? And in what BW? My interest in short-term stability has always been for more DX on the mm-wave ham bands. My best results were running QRSS with 1Hz BW on 241GHz but have often

[time-nuts] Comparing the frequency of two gpsdo's.

2010-11-13 Thread Mark Spencer
Hello: I'm looking for some advice about ways I can compare the frequency of two gpsdo's. To date I have been using an oscilloscope that supports phase measurements to measure the small (typically 10 degreees or so at 10 mhz) change in phase between the two signals over a period of a few

Re: [time-nuts] ADEV

2010-11-13 Thread jimlux
Bob Camp wrote: Hi I don't see anybody arguing that systems work better when there's a high ADEV than a low ADEV. Most of the papers are heading in the direction of it doesn't catch all of the problems I worry about. Based on what systems need and what ADEV measures, I don't find that a

Re: [time-nuts] ADEV

2010-11-13 Thread Magnus Danielson
On 11/13/2010 04:53 PM, jimlux wrote: Magnus Danielson wrote: One of the big meetings on this topic was in the NASA Goddard space center, and the result of that is found in the NASA Special Publication 80 (SP-80): http://hdl.handle.net/2060/19660001092 Un the part 1 User's viewpoint and

Re: [time-nuts] ADEV

2010-11-13 Thread jimlux
And, on the one hand, it's frustrating being the orphan child of the RF user community: you can't get off the shelf test equipment. On the other hand, it's cool, because then you have to *build* your test equipment. Hmm. Should do more of that. Well, one *does* have to convince someone to

Re: [time-nuts] Comparing the frequency of two gpsdo's.

2010-11-13 Thread Magnus Danielson
On 11/13/2010 05:18 PM, Mark Spencer wrote: Hello: I'm looking for some advice about ways I can compare the frequency of two gpsdo's. To date I have been using an oscilloscope that supports phase measurements to measure the small (typically 10 degreees or so at 10 mhz) change in phase

Re: [time-nuts] Temperature sensors and bridge amps

2010-11-13 Thread Magnus Danielson
On 11/13/2010 04:48 PM, Richard Karlquist wrote: The HP E9183A achieved 1 millidegree over -55 to +85C in a single oven. The time lag was dealt with by adding a double integrator to PID. I'd assume you would intend to write HP E1938A, right? Cheers, Magnus Rick Karlquist N6RK On

Re: [time-nuts] 8 bps

2010-11-13 Thread jimlux
wa1...@att.net wrote: Hi Jim, Is BPSK the modulation used on such an 8bps link for DSN? BPSK, typically with a lot of residual carrier. And, at slow rates, the data is modulated on a (e.g. 16 kHz) subcarrier, which is then phase modulated on the main carrier with a mod index to create the

Re: [time-nuts] ADEV

2010-11-13 Thread Magnus Danielson
On 11/13/2010 05:32 PM, jimlux wrote: And, on the one hand, it's frustrating being the orphan child of the RF user community: you can't get off the shelf test equipment. On the other hand, it's cool, because then you have to *build* your test equipment. Hmm. Should do more of that. Well,

Re: [time-nuts] Comparing the frequency of two gpsdo's.

2010-11-13 Thread Bob Camp
Hi Ok, so right now you are looking at about 10 degrees out of 360 where one cycle is 100 ns. More or less you are in the 3 ns range. Some cheap stuff that will do better: HP 5334 HP 5335 HP 5345 HP 5370 HP 5371 All are in the sub $300 range on the normal sites. Some are sub $100. All are

Re: [time-nuts] Comparing the frequency of two gpsdo's.

2010-11-13 Thread Magnus Danielson
On 11/13/2010 08:12 PM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Ok, so right now you are looking at about 10 degrees out of 360 where one cycle is 100 ns. More or less you are in the 3 ns range. Some cheap stuff that will do better: HP 5334 HP 5335 HP 5345 HP 5370 HP 5371 All are in the sub $300 range on the

Re: [time-nuts] Comparing the frequency of two gpsdo's.

2010-11-13 Thread Bob Camp
Hi I guess I assumed that we were talking about a modern GPSDO like the Thunderbolt - my bad. Indeed, if you have a messy PPS then you need to first generate a clean one. Bob On Nov 13, 2010, at 2:37 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote: On 11/13/2010 08:12 PM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Ok, so right

Re: [time-nuts] Comparing the frequency of two gpsdo's.

2010-11-13 Thread EWKehren
Hi I give up a 113.3 K picture attachment no text turns into 157 K. I tried. It is particular frustrating when seeing how much bandwidth is wasted with garbage that has nothing to do with time and frequency. Bert Kehren In a message dated 11/13/2010 2:14:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

Re: [time-nuts] Frequency comparrison

2010-11-13 Thread Magnus Danielson
Dear Bert, On 11/13/2010 09:24 PM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: I agree with Magnus Dual Mixer is the best way to go. That is why over a year ago I set out to develop a system that with counter can be realized for $200. I did reach that goal and Corby tested the first pass and the second pass with

Re: [time-nuts] Comparing the frequency of two gpsdo's.

2010-11-13 Thread John Ackermann N8UR
Bert, I just approved your message, so it should show up soon. The reason for the size increase is that the internet email format is 7-bit ASCII, so a binary file has to be encoded down from 8 bits and grows as a result. John On Nov 13, 2010, at 3:32 PM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: Hi I give

Re: [time-nuts] Temperature sensors and bridge amps

2010-11-13 Thread Richard Karlquist
Yes, E1938A.  I was operating on limited sleep when I posted that. Rick On Sat 13/11/10 8:35 AM , Magnus Danielson wrote: On 11/13/2010 04:48 PM, Richard Karlquist wrote: The HP E9183A achieved 1 millidegree over -55 to +85C in a single oven. The time lag was dealt with by adding a

Re: [time-nuts] Comparing the frequency of two gpsdo's.

2010-11-13 Thread EWKehren
Thank you Will remember it. Thought I had stayed within the guidelines. Bert In a message dated 11/13/2010 3:45:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, j...@febo.com writes: Bert, I just approved your message, so it should show up soon. The reason for the size increase is that the

Re: [time-nuts] Frequency comparrison

2010-11-13 Thread EWKehren
Magnus I will keep it in mind, in the meantime it has been approved. But once every thing has been tested I will send it to you to post all the drawings, board and code for dissemination. Thank you. How did you come out on the Rb Bert In a message dated 11/13/2010 3:42:05 P.M. Eastern

Re: [time-nuts] OT loosing things

2010-11-13 Thread Don Latham
It's called a sequential vortex... Don Rob Kimberley Reminds me of a story someone once told me This is how it goes: I decide to water my garden. As I turn on the hose in the driveway, I look over at my car and decide it needs washing. As I head towards the garage, I notice post on

Re: [time-nuts] Gamma-ray and jitter

2010-11-13 Thread Bob Camp
Hi As always - eliminating environmental influence from the results can be challenging. Even with the parts in a vacuum chamber attached to a heated block, there can still be things that directly relate to the building going from day to night mode or from week day to week end mode. That said

Re: [time-nuts] Gamma-ray and jitter

2010-11-13 Thread Magnus Danielson
On 11/14/2010 12:43 AM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi As always - eliminating environmental influence from the results can be challenging. Even with the parts in a vacuum chamber attached to a heated block, there can still be things that directly relate to the building going from day to night mode or

Re: [time-nuts] Gamma-ray and jitter

2010-11-13 Thread Alan Melia
I am dubious of this but cant find a reference at the moment. Very little of the massive doses of hard X-rays from the Sun actually reach the earths surface. Most interact with the atmosphere to produce the ionisation layers. Gamma have the same effect. If substantial Gammas were reaching the

Re: [time-nuts] Gamma-ray and jitter

2010-11-13 Thread Hal Murray
As always - eliminating environmental influence from the results can be challenging. Even with the parts in a vacuum chamber attached to a heated block, there can still be things that directly relate to the building going from day to night mode or from week day to week end mode. The best

Re: [time-nuts] Gamma-ray and jitter

2010-11-13 Thread Bob Camp
Hi Radiation sensitivity on swept quartz can be in the megarad region. For unswept quartz it's anybody's guess. Normal estimates are in the 10K rad range. It all depends on just what nasty impurities there are in the lattice. Bob On Nov 13, 2010, at 7:27 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote: On

Re: [time-nuts] Temperature sensors and bridge amps

2010-11-13 Thread Bill Hawkins
Rick, Is the double integrator actually a cascade of two controllers, where the primary controls the crystal temperature and its output sets the setpoint for a heater temperature controller? That's how industrial control handles the lag between a 5000 gallon reactor and its steam-heated jacket.

Re: [time-nuts] Temperature sensors and bridge amps

2010-11-13 Thread Magnus Danielson
Bill, On 11/14/2010 04:41 AM, Bill Hawkins wrote: Rick, Is the double integrator actually a cascade of two controllers, where the primary controls the crystal temperature and its output sets the setpoint for a heater temperature controller? That's how industrial control handles the lag

[time-nuts] Compairing two GPSDOs Oscillators

2010-11-13 Thread Perry Sandeen
List, wrote: I'm looking for some advice about ways I can compare the frequency of two gpsdo's. Any thoughts as to what could be obtained used for less than 1K that would be suited for this type of measurement ? OK, Here’s what I use and why. For a GPS receiver: the Lucent RFTG-M-XO GPS

Re: [time-nuts] Temperature sensors and bridge amps

2010-11-13 Thread Richard Karlquist
I understand what you are describing, however, the E1938A (I typed in the wrong number on the original posting) is a true single oven.  The double integrator is just a mathematical function in addition to the proportional, integral, and differential functions that are normally used. The

Re: [time-nuts] Gamma-ray and jitter

2010-11-13 Thread Richard Karlquist
FWIW, you will notice that there is a high value resistor shunting the crystal in the 10811.  The reason for this is to drain off DC charge caused by cosmic rays hitting the crystal, according to the designers. Rick Karlquist N6RK On Sat 13/11/10 2:48 PM , iov...@inwind.it wrote: In the

Re: [time-nuts] Gamma-ray and jitter

2010-11-13 Thread Richard Karlquist
FWIW, you will notice that there is a high value resistor shunting the crystal in the 10811.  The reason for this is to drain off DC charge caused by cosmic rays hitting the crystal, according to the designers. Rick Karlquist N6RK On Sat 13/11/10 2:48 PM , iov...@inwind.it wrote: In the

Re: [time-nuts] Gamma-ray and jitter

2010-11-13 Thread Richard Karlquist
FWIW, you will notice that there is a high value resistor shunting the crystal in the 10811.  The reason for this is to drain off DC charge caused by cosmic rays hitting the crystal, according to the designers. Rick Karlquist N6RK On Sat 13/11/10 2:48 PM , iov...@inwind.it wrote: In the

[time-nuts] How does one actually do Allan variation graphs?

2010-11-13 Thread Perry Sandeen
List, Allan variation is good. Allan variation can reveal valuable information. But when it comes to do it I feel like Lou Costello in Who’s On First? I’ve been an electronics technician all my working life. Math beyond A squared plus B squared equals C squared is beyond my abilities. I