At 08:15 PM 11/12/2010, Mike Feher wrote...
Relax
GFY
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On 13/11/2010, Mike S mi...@flatsurface.com wrote:
At 08:15 PM 11/12/2010, Mike Feher wrote...
Relax
GFY
Right! I started this light hearted thread and specifically asked
subscribers to comment via PM but now it has come down to this sort of
public attitude.
PLEASE MAKE NO MORE COMMENTS ON
Mike S,
We also used to be a polite group... until you came along.
-Chuck Harris
Mike S wrote:
At 08:15 PM 11/12/2010, Mike Feher wrote...
Relax
GFY
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To unsubscribe, go to
I sure do agree, that with very low data rate systems it is significant. In
fact, when David Allan Fred Walls came up with the proposal of using this
measurement as an FOM for oscillators over 30 years ago, digital
communication rates were slow, and, the measurement was a good one. Due to
the
This is interesting. I responded to a dismissive, condescending,
personal reply which was telling me how to behave with one using the
same style so the OP would understand it, yet you ignored the original
and choose to criticize me. You have an unusual definition of polite.
But, it's not my
On 11/13/2010 02:20 PM, Mike Feher wrote:
I sure do agree, that with very low data rate systems it is significant. In
fact, when David Allan Fred Walls came up with the proposal of using this
measurement as an FOM for oscillators over 30 years ago, digital
communication rates were slow, and,
Mike S,
How is your attempt at controlling the content of this group any
different from Mike F's asking you to be tolerant?
Any post where you wield to the F word (cloaked or otherwise) against
one of your fellow netizines, is not polite.
As to moderation: John Ackerman owns this group, guides
I agree with all of the comments. My problem now is attempting to fight an
internal Gov't battle, where there is too much emphasis on ADEV, as an
indicator to overall system performance. Thanks for all the replies. Regards
- Mike
Mike B. Feher, EOZ Inc.
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell, NJ, 07731
Hi Bob,
On 11/13/2010 03:05 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
I see ADEV not as a solution to a system design problem, but an oscillator
measurement issue.
If you look at the measures being used in the 60's, most of them had serious
statistical flaws.
You could measure them several ways and get
At 09:01 AM 11/13/2010, Chuck Harris wrote...
How is your attempt at controlling the content of this group any
different from Mike F's asking you to be tolerant?
First, his was a demand, not a request. Second, his was personally
directed.
Third, I made a comment, addressed to no one in
Mike, one way or another, the members of the list have formed their
judgments regarding your posts. John has asked that we let it go. Please
honor his request.
On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 9:47 AM, Mike S mi...@flatsurface.com wrote:
At 09:01 AM 11/13/2010, Chuck Harris wrote...
How is your
Mike Feher wrote:
I sure do agree, that with very low data rate systems it is significant. In
fact, when David Allan Fred Walls came up with the proposal of using this
measurement as an FOM for oscillators over 30 years ago, digital
communication rates were slow, and, the measurement was a good
Magnus Danielson wrote:
Hi Bob,
snip
I think the system applications for short-term stability measurements
was quite clear, and was brought out specifically.
Basically, these are all systems where there is some storage or
delay and you are comparing a signal generated/recorded at some
Hi
I don't see anybody arguing that systems work better when there's a high ADEV
than a low ADEV. Most of the papers are heading in the direction of it doesn't
catch all of the problems I worry about. Based on what systems need and what
ADEV measures, I don't find that a particularly
On 11/13/2010 04:01 PM, jimlux wrote:
Mike Feher wrote:
I sure do agree, that with very low data rate systems it is
significant. In
fact, when David Allan Fred Walls came up with the proposal of using
this
measurement as an FOM for oscillators over 30 years ago, digital
communication rates
The HP E9183A achieved 1 millidegree over -55 to +85C
in a single oven. The time lag was dealt with by adding
a double integrator to PID.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
On Fri 12/11/10 8:26 AM , Bill Hawkins wrote:
in the heater control loop. Of course, you can't get to a
millidegree from ambient
Magnus Danielson wrote:
One of the big meetings on this topic was in the
NASA Goddard space center, and the result of that is found in the NASA
Special Publication 80 (SP-80):
http://hdl.handle.net/2060/19660001092
Un the part 1 User's viewpoint and requirements
First article in there is
Hi Jim,
Is BPSK the modulation used on such an 8bps link for DSN?
If so, any idea what limit of C/N is used? And in what BW?
My interest in short-term stability has always been for more DX on the
mm-wave ham bands. My best results were running QRSS with 1Hz BW on
241GHz but have often
Hello:
I'm looking for some advice about ways I can compare the frequency of two
gpsdo's. To date I have been using an oscilloscope that supports phase
measurements to measure the small (typically 10 degreees or so at 10 mhz)
change in phase between the two signals over a period of a few
Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
I don't see anybody arguing that systems work better when there's a
high ADEV than a low ADEV. Most of the papers are heading in the
direction of it doesn't catch all of the problems I worry about.
Based on what systems need and what ADEV measures, I don't find that
a
On 11/13/2010 04:53 PM, jimlux wrote:
Magnus Danielson wrote:
One of the big meetings on this topic was in the
NASA Goddard space center, and the result of that is found in the NASA
Special Publication 80 (SP-80):
http://hdl.handle.net/2060/19660001092
Un the part 1 User's viewpoint and
And, on the one hand, it's frustrating being the orphan child of the RF
user community: you can't get off the shelf test equipment. On the other
hand, it's cool, because then you have to *build* your test equipment.
Hmm. Should do more of that.
Well, one *does* have to convince someone to
On 11/13/2010 05:18 PM, Mark Spencer wrote:
Hello:
I'm looking for some advice about ways I can compare the frequency of two
gpsdo's. To date I have been using an oscilloscope that supports phase
measurements to measure the small (typically 10 degreees or so at 10 mhz)
change in phase
On 11/13/2010 04:48 PM, Richard Karlquist wrote:
The HP E9183A achieved 1 millidegree over -55 to +85C
in a single oven. The time lag was dealt with by adding
a double integrator to PID.
I'd assume you would intend to write HP E1938A, right?
Cheers,
Magnus
Rick Karlquist N6RK
On
wa1...@att.net wrote:
Hi Jim,
Is BPSK the modulation used on such an 8bps link for DSN?
BPSK, typically with a lot of residual carrier. And, at slow rates, the
data is modulated on a (e.g. 16 kHz) subcarrier, which is then phase
modulated on the main carrier with a mod index to create the
On 11/13/2010 05:32 PM, jimlux wrote:
And, on the one hand, it's frustrating being the orphan child of the RF
user community: you can't get off the shelf test equipment. On the other
hand, it's cool, because then you have to *build* your test equipment.
Hmm. Should do more of that.
Well,
Hi
Ok, so right now you are looking at about 10 degrees out of 360 where one cycle
is 100 ns. More or less you are in the 3 ns range.
Some cheap stuff that will do better:
HP 5334
HP 5335
HP 5345
HP 5370
HP 5371
All are in the sub $300 range on the normal sites. Some are sub $100. All are
On 11/13/2010 08:12 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Ok, so right now you are looking at about 10 degrees out of 360 where one cycle
is 100 ns. More or less you are in the 3 ns range.
Some cheap stuff that will do better:
HP 5334
HP 5335
HP 5345
HP 5370
HP 5371
All are in the sub $300 range on the
Hi
I guess I assumed that we were talking about a modern GPSDO like the
Thunderbolt - my bad.
Indeed, if you have a messy PPS then you need to first generate a clean one.
Bob
On Nov 13, 2010, at 2:37 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
On 11/13/2010 08:12 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Ok, so right
Hi
I give up a 113.3 K picture attachment no text turns into 157 K. I tried.
It is particular frustrating when seeing how much bandwidth is wasted with
garbage that has nothing to do with time and frequency.
Bert Kehren
In a message dated 11/13/2010 2:14:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
Dear Bert,
On 11/13/2010 09:24 PM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote:
I agree with Magnus Dual Mixer is the best way to go. That is why over a
year ago I set out to develop a system that with counter can be realized for
$200. I did reach that goal and Corby tested the first pass and the second
pass with
Bert, I just approved your message, so it should show up soon. The reason for
the size increase is that the internet email format is 7-bit ASCII, so a binary
file has to be encoded down from 8 bits and grows as a result.
John
On Nov 13, 2010, at 3:32 PM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote:
Hi
I give
Yes, E1938A. I was operating on limited sleep when I posted that.
Rick
On Sat 13/11/10 8:35 AM , Magnus Danielson wrote:
On 11/13/2010 04:48 PM, Richard Karlquist wrote:
The HP E9183A achieved 1 millidegree over -55 to +85C
in a single oven. The time lag was dealt with by adding
a
Thank you Will remember it. Thought I had stayed within the guidelines.
Bert
In a message dated 11/13/2010 3:45:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
j...@febo.com writes:
Bert, I just approved your message, so it should show up soon. The reason
for the size increase is that the
Magnus I will keep it in mind, in the meantime it has been approved. But
once every thing has been tested I will send it to you to post all the
drawings, board and code for dissemination. Thank you.
How did you come out on the Rb
Bert
In a message dated 11/13/2010 3:42:05 P.M. Eastern
It's called a sequential vortex...
Don
Rob Kimberley
Reminds me of a story someone once told me
This is how it goes:
I decide to water my garden.
As I turn on the hose in the driveway, I look over at my car and decide it
needs washing.
As I head towards the garage, I notice post on
Hi
As always - eliminating environmental influence from the results can be
challenging. Even with the parts in a vacuum chamber attached to a heated
block, there can still be things that directly relate to the building going
from day to night mode or from week day to week end mode.
That said
On 11/14/2010 12:43 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
As always - eliminating environmental influence from the results can be
challenging. Even with the parts in a vacuum chamber attached to a heated
block, there can still be things that directly relate to the building going
from day to night mode or
I am dubious of this but cant find a reference at the moment. Very little of
the massive doses of hard X-rays from the Sun actually reach the earths
surface. Most interact with the atmosphere to produce the ionisation layers.
Gamma have the same effect. If substantial Gammas were reaching the
As always - eliminating environmental influence from the results can be
challenging. Even with the parts in a vacuum chamber attached to a heated
block, there can still be things that directly relate to the building going
from day to night mode or from week day to week end mode.
The best
Hi
Radiation sensitivity on swept quartz can be in the megarad region. For unswept
quartz it's anybody's guess. Normal estimates are in the 10K rad range. It all
depends on just what nasty impurities there are in the lattice.
Bob
On Nov 13, 2010, at 7:27 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
On
Rick,
Is the double integrator actually a cascade of two controllers,
where the primary controls the crystal temperature and its
output sets the setpoint for a heater temperature controller?
That's how industrial control handles the lag between a 5000
gallon reactor and its steam-heated jacket.
Bill,
On 11/14/2010 04:41 AM, Bill Hawkins wrote:
Rick,
Is the double integrator actually a cascade of two controllers,
where the primary controls the crystal temperature and its
output sets the setpoint for a heater temperature controller?
That's how industrial control handles the lag
List,
wrote: I'm looking for some advice about ways I can compare the frequency of
two gpsdo's.
Any thoughts as to what could be obtained used for less than 1K that would be
suited for this type of measurement ?
OK, Here’s what I use and why.
For a GPS receiver: the Lucent RFTG-M-XO GPS
I understand what you are describing, however, the E1938A
(I typed in the wrong number on the original posting) is
a true single oven. The double integrator is just a
mathematical function in addition to the proportional,
integral, and differential functions that are normally used.
The
FWIW, you will notice that there is a high value resistor shunting
the crystal in the 10811. The reason for this is to drain off DC charge
caused
by cosmic rays hitting the crystal, according to the designers.
Rick Karlquist
N6RK
On Sat 13/11/10 2:48 PM , iov...@inwind.it wrote:
In the
FWIW, you will notice that there is a high value resistor shunting
the crystal in the 10811. The reason for this is to drain off DC charge
caused
by cosmic rays hitting the crystal, according to the designers.
Rick Karlquist
N6RK
On Sat 13/11/10 2:48 PM , iov...@inwind.it wrote:
In the
FWIW, you will notice that there is a high value resistor shunting
the crystal in the 10811. The reason for this is to drain off DC charge
caused
by cosmic rays hitting the crystal, according to the designers.
Rick Karlquist
N6RK
On Sat 13/11/10 2:48 PM , iov...@inwind.it wrote:
In the
List,
Allan variation is good. Allan variation can reveal valuable information.
But when it comes to do it I feel like Lou Costello in Who’s On First?
I’ve been an electronics technician all my working life. Math beyond A squared
plus B squared equals C squared is beyond my abilities.
I
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