Magnus,
Thanks for taking the time to unravel what seems to be a lack of
communication between parties here. They speak of two countries
divided by a common language, well this is almost trivial to the
divisions caused by misunderstandings that can occur in the areas of
science and technology. I
Dear Steve,
On 06/06/2010 01:08 PM, Steve Rooke wrote:
I thus humbly suggest (nay, plead) that the discussion be re-focused on
the
two points above in a just the facts, ma'am manner. One can certainly
characterize mathematically the differences between integration and LP
filtering, and predict
On 4 June 2010 08:32, Charles P. Steinmetz
charles_steinm...@lavabit.com wrote:
If I may be allowed to summarize, it appears that Warren and Bruce agree
that integration is necessary to produce true ADEV results. Warren asserts
that the low-pass filtering his method uses is close enough to
On 4 June 2010 08:13, Bruce Griffiths bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote:
So you say but it is producing a result that seems to be VERY
interesting. To adopt an attitude where everything has to be done a
specific way totally misses out on innovation.
You cant arbitrarily change the equivalent
Steve Rooke wrote:
On 4 June 2010 08:32, Charles P. Steinmetz
charles_steinm...@lavabit.com wrote:
If I may be allowed to summarize, it appears that Warren and Bruce agree
that integration is necessary to produce true ADEV results. Warren asserts
that the low-pass filtering his method
WarrenS wrote:
Bruce posted
The RC filter doesn't accurately integrate the frequency difference
over time interval Tau0.
For you to even state that means you still have NO idea what I'm
doing, It is getting sort of sad.
Correct the RC filter is not an integrator, it is used for the
Steve Rooke wrote:
On 3 June 2010 15:46, Bruce Griffithsbruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote:
WarrenS wrote:
As Bruce says It remains a mystery to him why this works.
It doesnt, it only appears to in a very restricted set of circumstances.
Bruce, I don't understand you,
On 3 June 2010 15:46, Bruce Griffiths bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote:
WarrenS wrote:
As Bruce says It remains a mystery to him why this works.
It doesnt, it only appears to in a very restricted set of circumstances.
Bruce, I don't understand you, when presented with visual
Bruce Posted
Rectangular integration isn't particularly accurate or efficient, better
techniques exist.
True, but in this case it is the easiest and at these speeds, efficiency is not
a big concern, It is made up for with faster oversampling.
and it is obvious so far, better is not needed
is a total waste of
time.
ws
***
- Original Message -
From: Bruce Griffiths bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 12:27 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Notes on tight-PLL
Bruce Griffiths wrote:
You seem to be unaware of just how easy it is to create a dataset for
which any given algorithm will fail catastrophically.
So do it, put Warren to rest, and we can all stop this bickering.
-Chuck Harris
___
time-nuts
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 12:27 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Notes on tight-PLL performance versus TSC 5120A
Steve Rooke wrote:
On 3 June 2010 15:46, Bruce Griffithsbruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz
wrote:
WarrenS wrote:
As Bruce says It remains a mystery to him why
WarrenS wrote:
Bruce Posted
Rectangular integration isn't particularly accurate or efficient, better
techniques exist.
True, but in this case it is the easiest and at these speeds, efficiency is not
a big concern, It is made up for with faster oversampling.
and it is obvious so
: [time-nuts] Notes on tight-PLL performance versus TSC 5120A
Steve Rooke wrote:
On 3 June 2010 15:46, Bruce Griffithsbruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz
wrote:
WarrenS wrote:
As Bruce says It remains a mystery to him why this works.
It doesnt, it only appears to in a very restricted set
Bruce,
On 3 June 2010 19:27, Bruce Griffiths bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote:
Bruce, I don't understand you, when presented with visual evidence
that this method works you still deny it.
What visual evidence??
There is no proof that the technique works well in every case.
Only that for the
Steve Rooke sar10...@gmail.com wrote:
...
Lets explore frequency measurement in a way that we all can
understand. No oscillator can be measured in isolation, it has to be
measured against another standard oscillator.
The last part of your statement is not true. An oscillator's period
Steve Rooke posted:
A whole old bunch of stuff, this is all I found really wrong:
OK, we need to run the test for a longer period, ...
we can never prove it true so we try to look at ways of proving it false.
The important words there are proving it false.
That tester probable has more
...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Didier Juges
Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 12:49 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Notes on tight-PLL performance versus TSC 5120A
Steve Rooke sar10...@gmail.com wrote:
...
Lets explore frequency measurement in a way
-nuts] Notes on tight-PLL performance versus TSC 5120A
Steve Rooke wrote:
On 3 June 2010 15:46, Bruce Griffithsbruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz
wrote:
WarrenS wrote:
As Bruce says It remains a mystery to him why this works.
It doesnt, it only appears to in a very restricted set of
circumstances
Steve Rooke wrote:
Bruce,
On 3 June 2010 19:27, Bruce Griffithsbruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote:
Bruce, I don't understand you, when presented with visual evidence
that this method works you still deny it.
What visual evidence??
There is no proof that the technique works well in
If I may be allowed to summarize, it appears that Warren and Bruce
agree that integration is necessary to produce true ADEV
results. Warren asserts that the low-pass filtering his method uses
is close enough to integration to provide a useful approximation to
ADEV, while Bruce disagrees. So,
I have already commented on this in another thread but to reiterate.
The test that John performed that for a range of Tau that was possible
to be calculated for the given measurement period, both methods
produced the same results for each and every value of Tau, not for a
single value of
Maybe a pay per view event is in order.
Bob Q.
--
From: John Miles jmi...@pop.net
Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 2:02 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Notes on tight-PLL
3) To look at several different noise *slopes*, looking for specific cases
where filtering or integration might cause the instruments to respond
differently depending on the spectral characteristics of the noise in a
given tau region.
Bruce's concern is largely that of (3)...
One other
Charles pleaded
to re-focus and provided a good summery of a major basic issue.
He did leave off a small but subtle point that I added in because it is really
what my whole point is, and that is the benefits of oversampling.
1. How close can a LPF implementation come to integration in
For those following this strange and wonderful saga:
http://www.ke5fx.com/tpll.htm
-- john, KE5FX
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and follow the
On 2 June 2010 22:51, John Miles jmi...@pop.net wrote:
For those following this strange and wonderful saga:
http://www.ke5fx.com/tpll.htm
Heath Robinson would be proud :)
Very interesting write up John, thanks.
73, Steve
-- john, KE5FX
--
Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD
A man with one clock
John Miles wrote:
For those following this strange and wonderful saga:
http://www.ke5fx.com/tpll.htm
-- john, KE5FX
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and
As Bruce says It remains a mystery to him why this works.
Not one of my best skills, but I'll try to explain it once again.
Now that they see it works, maybe someone else will be able to put this into
words that Bruce will be able to finally understand.
The only requirement needed for the
WarrenS wrote:
As Bruce says It remains a mystery to him why this works.
It doesnt, it only appears to in a very restricted set of circumstances.
Not one of my best skills, but I'll try to explain it once again.
Now that they see it works, maybe someone else will be able to put this into
The integration secret (which is no secret to anyone but
Bruce) is to analog filter, Oversample, then average the
Frequency data at a rate much faster than the tau0 data rate.
Which again is misleading as you specify neither the averaging method
nor the analog filter.
I can't speak for
John Miles wrote:
The integration secret (which is no secret to anyone but
Bruce) is to analog filter, Oversample, then average the
Frequency data at a rate much faster than the tau0 data rate.
Which again is misleading as you specify neither the averaging method
nor
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