I am so glad some folks here agree with me....I could never learn math without doing math. I can't teach mathematically based concepts without calculation demos that require students to work along with me.
I've run into the insistence and taken some flack, on this list in the past and in other places, that doing math is just an unnecessary waste of time for statistics students. In less charitable moments I've imagined that those issuing the smack down to me are people who didn't like math themselves. I am indulging my interest in mathematics lately and also taking classes both in doing it and understanding the cognitive skills....I believe there is much in the American system of education and teaching math that works to undermine confidence and mastery...some of it is cultural too. Americans generally value speed above all (not helpful in building math skill) AND hold the belief that if it doesn't come easily to you, you weren't meant to do it (a perversion I suppose of our love of "talent".) Finally I believe there is a false dichotomy here...between speeding through the procedures using the various software packages and doing "long tedious calculations." This is not so. I've developed many short examples using simple numbers that produce (usually) round or not-too-lengthy decimal answers for sum of squares (someone mentioned that), basic descriptive statistics and even some of the tests like one-way ANOVA and one/two sample t and z. Math is beautiful. When we suggest to students that it's an obstacle to be skirted and not a skill set to be valued and cultivated, we do them an injustice. It's part of being a good critical thinker and a competent consumer of information in general. It teaches us to break complex problems into small steps, which is generally the way these sorts of problems are solved in many realms. Done with my speechifying. Have a good weekend all. Nancy Melucci Long Beach City College and elsewhere -----Original Message----- From: Christopher Green <chri...@yorku.ca> To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) <tips@fsulist.frostburg.edu> Sent: Wed, Oct 1, 2014 6:41 am Subject: Re: [tips] Teach statistics before calculus That is good Jim, and I do the same thing, but it is only a start. Most of the stats actually used in psychological research is continuous, not discrete. As for stats courses that allow student to depend on computers, and never do hand calculations using formulas… this student have not learned statistics. They have learned data-entry. Chris ….. Christopher D Green Department of Psychology York University Toronto, ON M3J 1P# Canada chri...@yorku.ca http://www.yorku.ca/christo ………………………………... On Oct 1, 2014, at 8:01 AM, Jim Clark <j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca> wrote: > Hi > > One reason I like probability and binomial in intro stats (despite student protest) is that students can determine p distribution if H0 true, without calculus. And provides a concrete foundation for normal distribution, which binomial approaches as n increases. > > Also possible to use simulations to show the resulting probability distributions agree nicely with theoretical ps produced by calculus. > > Although calculus allows for alternative (deeper?) understanding of distributions, not clear that it is necessary. > > Of course, calculus has other benefits for stats, such as proof that SS is a minimum. > > Take care > Jim > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 1, 2014, at 5:42 AM, "Miguel Roig" <ro...@stjohns.edu> wrote: >> >> Chris, I believe that we have had discussions here about the practicality of teaching students to do hand calculations from formulas given the wide availability of statistical software. If so, do those who learn in classes in which the emphasis is primarily conceptual and software-based even taught how to look up p values in those tables? :) >> >> Miguel >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Christopher Green [mailto:chri...@yorku.ca] >> Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 6:15 PM >> To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) >> Subject: Re: [tips] Teach statistics before calculus >> >> Funny, just earlier today I was saying that the reason so many students have so much trouble with the (continuous) statistics that we teach in psychology is that we are essentially trying to teach them a topic that requires a knowledge of calculus without making them take calculus first. That's what all those tables in the back of the book are: they integrate over probability distributions so that we can lookup (rather than calculate directly) the proportion of area up to a given x-axis value (z, t, F, chi-square, etc.). >> >> So this guy might be right that stats is at the top of the pyramid, but only because it passes directly through calculus. >> >> Chris >> ..... >> Christopher D Green >> Department of Psychology >> York University >> Toronto, ON M3J 1P# >> Canada >> >> chri...@yorku.ca >> http://www.yorku.ca/christo >> ....................................... >> >>> On Sep 30, 2014, at 5:04 PM, Miguel Roig <ro...@stjohns.edu> wrote: >>> >>> It's only 3 minutes long and there is probably nothing here that you don't already know, but I thought it was worth sharing. >>> >>> http://www.ted.com/talks/arthur_benjamin_s_formula_for_changing_math_education >>> >>> Miguel >>> ___________________________________________________________________________ >>> Miguel Roig, Ph.D. >>> Professor of Psychology >>> St. John's University >>> 300 Howard Avenue >>> Staten Island, New York 10301 >>> Voice: (718) 390-4513 >>> Fax: (718) 390-4347 >>> E-mail: ro...@stjohns.edu >>> http://facpub.stjohns.edu/~roigm >>> http://orcid.org/0000-0001-5311-5651 >>> On plagiarism and ethical writing: >>> http://ori.dhhs.gov/education/products/plagiarism/ >>> ___________________________________________________________________________ >>> --- >>> You are currently subscribed to tips as: chri...@yorku.ca. >>> To unsubscribe click here: >>> http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=430248.781165b5ef80a3cd2b14721caf62bd92&n=T&l=tips&o=38783 >>> or send a blank email to >>> leave-38783-430248.781165b5ef80a3cd2b14721caf62b...@fsulist.frostburg.edu >>> >> >> >> --- >> You are currently subscribed to tips as: ro...@stjohns.edu. >> To unsubscribe click here: >> http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=1632838.7e62b84813297f170a6fc240dab8c12d&n=T&l=tips&o=38787 >> or send a blank email to >> leave-38787-1632838.7e62b84813297f170a6fc240dab8c...@fsulist.frostburg.edu >> >> --- >> You are currently subscribed to tips as: j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca. >> To unsubscribe click here: >> http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13251.645f86b5cec4da0a56ffea7a891720c9&n=T&l=tips&o=38803 >> or send a blank email to >> leave-38803-13251.645f86b5cec4da0a56ffea7a89172...@fsulist.frostburg.edu > > --- > You are currently subscribed to tips as: chri...@yorku.ca. > To unsubscribe click here: > http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=430248.781165b5ef80a3cd2b14721caf62bd92&n=T&l=tips&o=38805 > or send a blank email to > leave-38805-430248.781165b5ef80a3cd2b14721caf62b...@fsulist.frostburg.edu > --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: drna...@aol.com. 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