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Just Correct Ralph!
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Everything flow zero? (David M. Pelly)
   2. Out of body (Slim .)
   3. Re: Out of body (David Pelly)
   4. Flow 0, Self to Self (Ralph Clouse)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014 06:46:22 -0500
From: "David M. Pelly" <david.pe...@hotmail.ca>
To: TROM List <trom@lists.newciv.org>
Subject: Re: [TROM1] Everything flow zero?
Message-ID: <blu171-w10375f7f94997e69ee421ed90...@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Martin,

You make all, excellent, well evaluated from all points of view, very accurate, well articulated points.

With emphasis on Solipsism.

I had read about Solipsism on, I think it was on IVy list a couple or few yrs ago.



Now you know that "awareness" can be defined.

:)


Thanks much,


David






From: msfos...@mweb.co.za
To: trom@lists.newciv.org
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014 11:04:30 +0200
Subject: Re: [TROM1] Everything flow zero?

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Hi David,
First, here is another definition of awareness. "Awareness is the source of
all perception!"

Regarding "flow zero" - It is solipsism. (Theory that the self is all that
you know to exist)

In TROM we are dealing with conflicting postulates in our individual minds.
The following from TROM describes the scene:

"The key to the resolution of the mind, then, lies in exercising the being
in the discovery and creation of complementary postulates; and, transiently,
in unraveling the tangled mass of conflicting postulates that his mind has
become. The mind, being a repository of old games, which are postulates in
conflict, has no defense against the application and re-injection of
complementary postulates regarding the effects it contains. In short, we
vanish the mind by progressively getting the being to create, and do
exercises in, complementary and conflicting postulates; to create and
experience overt and motivator overwhelms, play games, and generally bring
back under his own determinism these four basic postulates - both as SD and
PD - which go to make up the interchange we call life. Enroute he will
discover, or re-discover, all there is to know about life; he will also
discover his true nature as a spiritual being.

 Martin
-----Original Message-----
From: trom-boun...@lists.newciv.org [mailto:trom-boun...@lists.newciv.org]
On Behalf Of David M. Pelly
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 10:06 PM
To: TROM List
Subject: [TROM1] Everything flow zero?
The idea of everything being "flow zero" is in contradiction to the PFC.



If everything was of flow zero,

then there would not  be the  "overwhelm"  and "forced to" .......factors in
the PFC.

And there would be no need for the PFC or even no need for TROM.





If you are "forced" to___________________,  ( what ever the case is)

(in a situation where you are overwhelmed and forced to know or not know)

then it is not "flow zero".


"Overwhelm" and "forced to know or not know" by others, are not flow zero.


To say so,  is incongruent,   it is an oxymoron.


: incongruent

incongruous; incompatible
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2014 19:50:09 -0800
From: "Slim ." <slimspersonalem...@gmail.com>
To: trom@lists.newciv.org
Subject: [TROM1] Out of body
Message-ID:
        <canol_rydkzx_twjvefs3cj3cndn8fdfscqzuspdrwyamxb+...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Ive been working allot on the side with exterior perception and making nice
progress.

When I went exterior in 82 it was different then compated to now. Walking
driving, working on my job exterior. I was creation illusions that others
could clearly see too.

Now its normal being exterior.  So much so that its the rule and feeling
interior is the exception.

Ive never been very good at seeing exterior amd never really cared. My
human eye balls were good enough.

So now im seeing more exterior.  Its like a dream in many ways.  PT life is
like a dream when I see not with human eyes.

Its gonna take some practice and getting use too.

The floors and walls are confusing and I'll look at many things as my
attention darts all over the place.

I can see what ever I put my attention on and then its gone and something
else appears.

Or ill look at someone sideways like they are laying on a wall.

Gravity , up and down, left and right, dont really work yet.

Some times I need to go back and use human eyeballs and then recall what I
just saw and try to understand what it was where it was who it was .  Lol

The other thing is that because im always exterior but to a lesser degree
using human eyes, I dont feel the sensation of being exterior.

But I know I am because of what I see without using my human eyes.

Its not a dream because im not sleeping and its not my imagination because
it looks diffetent and things are upside down or sideways and fleeting.

The other thing thats becomming very real to me is that  I dont consciously
put postulates up. Like level five for example.

Shit just happens. Somw times I know its my and other times its just shit
that happens.

In 2010 id be running RI in the mall courtyard.  Tears running down my
face, charge and sensation comming of in ways that are beyond my ability to
communicate to others.

Then 15 women appear and sit with me in the courtyard.
All hotties in thier twenties and im no fashion model at age 52 with a pot
belly but they were all there because of me. None of them spoke to me but
they all had thier attention on me and were there because of me.

Some times others would walk up to me and id send them away and theyd walk
away. I wouldnt look at then or speak. Its was my will.

This was all level 3 days too. Hadn't gor to 4 or 5 yet.

So unlike level 5, postulates do not need to be a conscious matter. Not
sure if that's good or not.

Probably good but control of ones desires is good thing to have too.

To be continued

Slim :  )
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014 08:55:56 -0500
From: David Pelly <david.pe...@gmail.com>
To: The Resolution of Mind list <trom@lists.newciv.org>
Subject: Re: [TROM1] Out of body
Message-ID:
        <caoen_e9+4hzssbr+gaqdz5odueb3umv21csr9m_df2mbsi+...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Talking about women, Slim.

I was on my way to a meeting on Monday night.  (I use the city transit.)

I got off the bus at the terminal  and was walking to the meeting, which
was about three blocks.

There was some snow and ice on the ground, so one had to be careful.

As I am walking off the bus terminal platform, a  perky, talkative,
pretty,  young lady ( am guessing about 18-19) , who was going in the same
direction as I was,  casually began talking to me, as if I was a young man
her age, and as if I was someone she casually knew. She was casually
talking about slipping on the ice.

 We walked and talked for about a half a block before she had to turn to go
her way.  I am sure she   did not realize that I was old enough to be her
grandfather.  I hadn't had  that happen to me in that way,  in all of my
memorable history.


David




On Tue, Feb 4, 2014 at 10:50 PM, Slim . <slimspersonalem...@gmail.com>wrote:

*************
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************


Ive been working allot on the side with exterior perception and making
nice progress.

When I went exterior in 82 it was different then compated to now. Walking
driving, working on my job exterior. I was creation illusions that others
could clearly see too.

Now its normal being exterior.  So much so that its the rule and feeling
interior is the exception.

Ive never been very good at seeing exterior amd never really cared. My
human eye balls were good enough.

So now im seeing more exterior.  Its like a dream in many ways.  PT life
is like a dream when I see not with human eyes.

Its gonna take some practice and getting use too.

The floors and walls are confusing and I'll look at many things as my
attention darts all over the place.

I can see what ever I put my attention on and then its gone and something
else appears.

Or ill look at someone sideways like they are laying on a wall.

Gravity , up and down, left and right, dont really work yet.

Some times I need to go back and use human eyeballs and then recall what I
just saw and try to understand what it was where it was who it was .  Lol

The other thing is that because im always exterior but to a lesser degree
using human eyes, I dont feel the sensation of being exterior.

But I know I am because of what I see without using my human eyes.

Its not a dream because im not sleeping and its not my imagination because
it looks diffetent and things are upside down or sideways and fleeting.

The other thing thats becomming very real to me is that  I dont
consciously put postulates up. Like level five for example.

Shit just happens. Somw times I know its my and other times its just shit
that happens.

In 2010 id be running RI in the mall courtyard.  Tears running down my
face, charge and sensation comming of in ways that are beyond my ability to
communicate to others.

Then 15 women appear and sit with me in the courtyard.
All hotties in thier twenties and im no fashion model at age 52 with a pot
belly but they were all there because of me. None of them spoke to me but
they all had thier attention on me and were there because of me.

Some times others would walk up to me and id send them away and theyd walk
away. I wouldnt look at then or speak. Its was my will.

This was all level 3 days too. Hadn't gor to 4 or 5 yet.

So unlike level 5, postulates do not need to be a conscious matter. Not
sure if that's good or not.

Probably good but control of ones desires is good thing to have too.

To be continued

Slim :  )

_______________________________________________
Trom mailing list
Trom@lists.newciv.org
http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom


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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014 10:20:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Ralph Clouse <sojourner452...@yahoo.com>
To: "trom@lists.newciv.org" <trom@lists.newciv.org>
Subject: [TROM1] Flow 0, Self to Self
Message-ID:
        <1391624430.8232.yahoomail...@web164006.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Ultimate concept of self to self. Flow 0. as related to TROM.

Take a typical dream. You and many other characters are in your dream. some allies, some opponents, they are considered others that you see as not you. They seem to be not self.

Yet there is only one architect of your dream. Only you and the mind you created. The dream is your and your minds creation. All characters are your creation, even any considered opponent. It is all YOU + MIND.

Make the dream just more apparently real / important. Or shall we say- take a look at your life, and all the others on this planet, or in any universe you can experience. Just a more persistent / important to you dream.

How is this possible ?

Well, you start with a desire to Bring something into Existence / Then experience it / To be Known / To Know - For good measure of experience, lets put it around us 360 degrees.

Sound familiar ? Yup - RI and also positive legs of To Know Package if you see the relationship.

RI is a single frame or several frames if you create it in motion of a dream, all be it a lucid dream created in the NOW.


dream
dr?m/
noun
noun: dream; plural noun: dreams

1.?? a series of thoughts, images, and sensations occurring in a person's mind during sleep.


???
Of course You will need To Not Know that you are creating all this so it will persist. Or at least those you created Must Not Know they are YOU !? Your RI creations are ephemeral, take your attention off them, they essentially disappear , do not persist.



So if you create an other to play a part, the other Must Not Know he is you. He must Not Know. And from your viewpoint, it Must Not Be Known that he is you - you are him, If he knows he is you which is him, then there is no other, still just you = no game.

Also, you want a persistent dream / game that will always be viewable without As-Issing = disappearing. If you see something exactly as it is, As Is, it can disappear for you. it needs to be altered - Alter Issed. Meaning the truth of the creation can not readily be seen. So if you consider it was not you but some other that created something, it will persist, as you the creator have not known at this bottom level of games, that you created the other whom is really you. You don't see the Truth.

The negative legs of the To Know Matrix - give you a persisting Universe / Dream to play games in. The Positive legs if? practiced in the direction of - without the Must / Importance, will take away the game, and grant you freedom from any game in this universe and the Universe itself, once the mind is devoid of limiting postulates of course.

Dennis talked about compartmentalization of the mind and creating playmates = others, and forgetting that you did - Not Knowing.

If you get really involved and Identify with your creation, forgetting / not knowing you created it all, and that it is all just in your mind, and become an other to yourself too, Thank your lucky stars ( or your intention to end the games with your mind? ) that you ran across Dennis Stevens TROM so you can reverse this mess you created and uncreate your mind to no more limiting postulates. Only then will you be truly free and see all things as they really are.?

Then RI - To be known / To Know, will once again be a native creative ability to voluntarily Be Do Have in this Universe if you so choose. And Flow 0 will cause any desires you have created in this Mind / Universe to manifest in your life already created. Others will have created or will create your postulated reality - SD / PD postulate. If you do it, you may need some sort of persistentcy postulate included.


Of course the code of an ethical being will be a freedom maintainer

or guide line as you go about toward Nirvana.

Ethics.

Its relevant to ask at this stage, Should a beings? native abilities be restored to him? Would he not immediately, alone or in association with others so freed, hold the rest of mankind in slavery for his own ends?

The answer to this question lies in the difference between a being in a compulsive games condition, and a being who plays games by choice. Mankind today is in a compulsive games condition. By this I mean he has lost his power of choice in the matter. He must play games; he must win these games; and he must do these things regardless of all else. You see this frenetic activity around you every day. Its all become so deadly, deadly serious; a matter of life and death. Why, even enjoying yourself has become a serious matter. Only the children can still laugh in sheer uninhibited pleasure; but only then until they receive their education, and realize how serious it all really is.

As the game becomes more serious, more important, the player?s concern for the well-being of his adversary becomes less and less. What are a million Jews slaughtered in the gas chamber when its for the glory of the Third Reich? They?re only Jews, aren?t they? What matter that the jackboots are steeped in blood and gore as long as the war is won? They?re only the enemy, aren?t they? What matter that a man be compelled to work long hours under atrocious conditions for miserly pay so his employer can make more profit? He?s only a worker, isn?t he? What matter that workers band together and form unions, then dissipate the wealth of a nation in interminable strikes to improve their lot? They?re only money-grabbing capitalists, aren?t they?

The compulsive games condition. The more compulsive it becomes, the more partisan the being becomes; the more partisan the being becomes the less real his opponent becomes to him, and so the more easy it becomes to justify his inexcusable behavior towards him. Yes, it would be folly indeed to give such a being true power, for abuse it he most certainly would at the first opportunity. But while the being is in a compulsive games condition he has no true power. Its only as the compulsion fades that the true power begins to emerge. Its only when he no longer has to play games, has to win, that he can do these things easily. The harder he drives that ?Must? postulate the closer and closer he edges towards the ?can?t?; the greater the compulsion to succeed, the more difficult success becomes.


Only when the playing of games are light and airy things, when competence is a joy like poetry, and the need to win is a far, far junior consideration to the enjoyment of the game does true ability even begin to emerge. And as he approaches this state he more and more realizes that his own happiness is bound up with the happiness of others, for he cannot easily play games whilst alone. He needs other to share the sensations; others as capable as himself, or his games will soon become unbearably dull. To always win is no fun, and so he learns to cherish a good opponent and becomes very concerned a bout his welfare.

Thus, as the being frees up from the trap his view of life changes: becomes broader and less parochial. He lives his life more and more from the viewpoint of the maximum amount of benefit for the maximum number of beings. For only in this way is his life truly rich. In short, he has become an ethical being.

A man from Nazareth some 2000 years ago who said ?Love thy neighbour as thyself? possessed more than a glimmering of the true factors involved. The route out is from the compulsive playing of games, through the voluntary playing of games, to the state of Nirvana - eternal bliss and oneness with all life. As the being walks this route he soon perceives that there is a basic code of ethics that governs conduct, and that when he violates this code he suffers just as much as his victim.

1) NEVER FORCE A PERSON TO KNOW A THING AGAINST THEIR CHOICE.

2) NEVER PREVENT A PERSON FROM KNOWING.

3) NEVER FORCE A PERSON TO MAKE A THING KNOWN.

4) NEVER PREVENT A PERSON FROM MAKING A THING KNOWN.

This code is as easy to live by as the being is no longer in a compulsive games condition. Evaluate yourself against it, for it will give you many insights into the nature of your current compulsive games conditions. When a being is free from the compulsive playing of games he quite naturally lives by this code; he would no more dream of violating it than he would of cutting his own throat. For he knows all too well the consequences. Its entirely safe then to free a being, for what being could be considered dangerous who lives by such.



This has been my experience, and so I keep on Troming :-)




Ralph
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