Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

[Judy Taylor]

Debbie, What is a "prima facie" reason? If your FIL's problem was not demonic then why do you suppose he would lash out at those who love him the most in such an erratic fashion?  The man certainly has the kind of life history that would cause him to be a prime candidate for such.  As for the question as to whether these spirits are able to come and go at will?  This is evident in the later life of King Saul when David would be summoned to play his harp under the anointing to give Saul some relief from the torment.   judyt       From: "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   My late father-in-law, a very intelligent man, was bipolar from about his mid-50s and got worse during the time that I knew him. During bad depressive episodes he was extremely insulting towards everyone, often accusing my husband Jan of being a pimp who secretly hired our children out as prostitutes, and his sister of being a prostitute herself. He would ask my mother why she was still around and when she would return to hell from whence she came, being a spawn of the devil, and would call his wife and her relatives the most horrible names to their face. His bipolar disorder was complicated by paranoid delusions in which he sincerely believed the KGB were after him (he was Polish; see also below re war) and that we (and most other people) were agents. During milder episodes he just thought everyone but him was an imbecile, and during manic episodes he was charming and funny and generous. In his best times he spent hours reading the Bible (and other books) and spoke about the worship of Christ being central to our lives. He was treated with a succession of powerful drugs, which he hated taking, so he was dangerously self-medicating. Once he disappeared and we found him three days later sleeping in his car in a parking lot.   Jan ignored all the insulting behaviour and consistently showed his dad tenderness and respect, much more than I managed to. He tried to treat his dad like an ordinary person; he said he remembered the wonderful person his father had been when he was a kid, and chose to keep seeing that person before him. In the last few years of my father-in-law's life, when he was in a retirement home and visited only by us and Jan's sister (with the grandkids), he got to be a lot more normal and sound. I don't know why, unless maybe they finally found the right drug and ensured he took it. Or maybe it is a condition that just goes away. Or maybe it has to do with life circumstances combined with people's different degrees of resilience; he did, after all, fight for the British forces in WWII and witnessed all his comrades in his paratrooping squad shot in the air. He also did actually spend time in Siberia, during which time he went blind from malnutrition and underwent some attempts at brainwashing. But some people endured worse and didn't crack up, and some people are bipolar without any such stresses. I don't know that much about mental illness. But I see no prima facie reason for regarding it as demonic, although I do believe in the activity of demons. I believe my father-in-law had a relationship with Christ.   Debbie   From: Judy Taylor   From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> So why do you put “Christian” in quotes—is she or isn’t she? I know I struggled for years with debilitating depression. The only therapy I ever had was through seeking after the Lord with all my heart, and eventually He healed and delivered me.  It doesn’t mean I can’t get depressed today, but that’s a whole different animal from the blackness that debilitates you with such overwhelming hopelessness that it takes concentrated effort just to take the next breath.  I praise God for His mercy and faithfulness.  I was a believer, but satan had his hands around my throat.  The Lord is mightier, but I was set free overnight by any means.  I guess I had to learn on my own when to recognize it as the enemy and rebuke him.   I guess with the demonic thing I notice about the couple of women I’ve known who were “bipolar” personalities is the anger thing—you know, always trying to be offended or to pick an argument.  That’s what really makes me uncomfortable.  I haven’t had time to think it through, but I can tell when I sense something demonic.  And I’m not sure how to react to it. izzy   Please don't take the quotes to heart, I used them to emphasize the fact that she is a Christian, she prays for me all the time. I've been through depressive spells (though not as severe) myself and I understand the desperation.  Praise God for his faithfulness in your life (and mine) Izzy.  I hear what you're saying about the anger - sounds familiar and I know it is demonic.  The sad thing is that ppl in this situation alienate what they need the most which is love and acceptance.  jt   From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Really interesting analogies, Judy and David.  I'll think about that a lot. By the way, the enemies in the land comment leads me to ask if anyone knows what is the underlying problem with people who are commonly labeled "Bi-polar"--up one day and low the next, and seem to me to always be looking for someone to be angry with.  They are commonly treated with lithium. I've been around someone like that the last couple of weeks (who says she is a Christian by the way), and it seems demonic to me. izzy   I have a long time "christian" friend who has been diagnosed bi-polar also and I have seen her in good times and bad times and hospitalized twice for months at a time.  My friend had 10yrs of freedom from meds until 1989 when hurricane Gloria hit the coast and everyone around her including her mother and daughter were freaking out over it.   "B" would tell you that this is definitely demonic and in her case a stronghold of fear which has controlled her for most of her life.  She has understanding and has made some progress.  This has to do with what I have been discussing with David.  Some of these seeming "comfort" zones are not easy for ppl to part with and spirits such as "self pity" stroke the flesh and posture as "friends" so identifying them and seeing them as enemies is the first hurdle.  My friend is getting better at recognizing when they come and speak to her; so they are losing their cover.   She has been on lithium in the past also.  jt     From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] David Miller wrote: >> The concept that the Holy Spirit is working to convict >> believers of various sins, such as stealing, lust, >> covetousness, etc. is dangerous.   Judy wrote: > Why do you see this as dangerous David?   Because people confuse the voice of the Spirit with their own inner convictions.  Furthermore, they misinterpret the work of the Holy Spirit, and therefore ascribe works to him which are not his.  This leads to error.   Judy wrote: > Being conformed to the "image of Christ" > does not happen overnight.  It is a process, > just as salvation itself is a process of past, > present, future.   It depends which image of Christ you are talking about.  Are you talking about him in his now glorified state?  You bet that is a process.  Are you talking about Christ as an infant lying in a manger?  No, that is not a process.  That is an event called being born again.   Judy wrote: > An object lesson is given us in scripture ... when > after Israel celebrated the passover and God led > them supernaturally to the promised land.  They > were instructed to go in and take the land which > He would give to them little by little. He did > not clear the land all at one time because they would > not be strong enough to hold it. (Exodus 23:29,30)   Good object lesson, but look at it closely.  They were no longer slaves in Egypt at this point.  Once they crossed that Red Sea and the waters killed the Egyptians that were pursuing them, they were saved.  They had deliverance from bondage to Egypt, which represents our deliverance from the   bondage of sin to this world system.  What they lacked was possessing the promised land, the kingdom of God.  This is where faith comes in, and this is where the process of growth is important.   We are immediately delivered, but love still is perfected.  I may not sin, but that does not mean that I cannot love better.  Yesterday I may have helped someone who came looking to me for help, but today I might seek out those who need help.  Yesterday, I might have known how to lead someone to a   hospital to get help, but today I might pray for him to be healed instantly and thereby better help him in his situation.  Jesus at one time did no miracles, but his obedience and love were perfected at that time when he did   minister in miracles and healed the sick, and ultimately gave his life a ransom for all, the ultimate _expression_ of love which he did when he was more than 33 years old, not when he was 5 years old.   Judy wrote: > Likewise when we surrender our lives to Christ > we also have enemies on the land (our heart) ...   You have the wrong analogy here, Judy.  The enemies of our own heart were when we were in Egypt, or the unbelief when God tells us to possess his kingdom and we say such is impossible.  The enemies in the land, the Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites... these enemies represent not defects of our   own heart, but enemies in the air, principalities and powers and rulers of darkness and spiritual wickedness in high places which inspire people to act   contrary to us and to mock us and to hate us and kill us.   Judy wrote: > Those of us who are honest will admit that we > were walking in most of Galatians 5:19,21 if not all.   "WERE" is the proper tense.  Why do you try and resurrect it to present tense?   Judy wrote: > That the land of our heart is inhabited by some enemies > is evident by what comes out of our mouths (at times).   Nothing defiling comes out of my mouth anymore.  Once it had, yes, but not anymore.  I'm sure my rebukes or corrections appear otherwise to some on this list, as they like to point to such things as evidence of my sinfulness, but God knows what is good and right and what is not.  Men of wickedness lack discernment of such things.   Peace be with you. David Miller.   ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org   If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.       ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org   If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.