Re: windows defender issues? & other AV

On 19/01/2019 12:56, R.H. via use-livecode wrote: My main stack has 58 cards. The stack has two small sub-stacks also used as UI for settings. There is one card dedicated to internal resources (images, etc.), two cards are user interface cards, the rest are data cards for a technical product an

Fwd: windows defender issues? & other AV

Date: Sa., 19. Jan. 2019 um 13:56 Uhr Subject: Re: windows defender issues? & other AV To: LiveCode Runrev.Com Ref. To Mark Waddingham's suggestion: /* Dear Mark, let me make this side note: Your insight and your comments here, also in general, cannot be praised enough. I am a fast type

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV

Ref. To Mark Waddingham's suggestion: /* Dear Mark, let me make this side note: Your insight and your comments here, also in general, cannot be praised enough. I am a fast typer and a slow reader, so I have to discipline myself to carefully read. But your comments always catch my attention and I a

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues

Matthias Rebbe wrote: >> Am 17.01.2019 um 17:08 schrieb Richard Gaskin: >> >> R.H. wrote: >> > I just feel that we should know what the problem is that corrupts >> > the stack when saving and the original stack filename is appended >> > with the tilde character? >> >> Agreed. If the engine has a

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues

> Am 17.01.2019 um 17:08 schrieb Richard Gaskin via use-livecode > : > > R.H. wrote: > > > I just feel that we should know what the problem is that corrupts the > > stack when saving and the original stack filename is appended with the > > tilde character? > > Agreed. If the engine has a pr

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues

R.H. wrote: > I just feel that we should know what the problem is that corrupts the > stack when saving and the original stack filename is appended with the > tilde character? Agreed. If the engine has a problem writing stack files, that would prevent us from using LiveCode. The trick now is

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues

Right. The splash stack actually becomes an executable when saved as a standalone. Executables by nature cannot be modified. This is one of the reasons a splash stack approach makes a lot of sense, because now all your attacked stacks/substacks CAN be modified (given they are in a location the O

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues

Lagi Pittas wrote: > A POS system that I wrote saved a few arrays and text on exit. It > worked beautifully in 99.9% % of the time but every so often the > user would start up and the file was corrupted some how - I saw > the tilde file (exactly as word does (used to do it?), when view > extens

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues

On 2019-01-17 16:15, R.H. via use-livecode wrote: Is there any way to detect and catch an error when saving? When the engine saves a stackfile when it has previously been saved to the same place... It first moves the existing file at to ~. If this step fails (e.g. because it can't move the

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues

Well, thanks for all the comments regarding failing to save the data stack distributed with a compiled splash stack. Each case is different. In this case, I have to actually go by my promise to not install anything on the target machine that is not visible inside my app folder. The user can just re

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues

A POS system that I wrote saved a few arrays and text on exit. It worked beautifully in 99.9% % of the time but every so often the user would start up and the file was corrupted some how - I saw the tilde file (exactly as word does (used to do it?), when view extensions for known file type was en

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues

Thanks Richard and Jacque for the enthusiastic support of my opening observation: "it's quite possible to save data in stack file(s) if you do it properly" Yes, that holds true. :) But as a responsible advisor to people in the community at large, I must discourage stack files as first choi

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues

As you say, the file format isn't an issue. I frequently use stack files for storage of all kinds of things. Never had any problem with it. The different types of data storage provided in stack format can be very useful. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software |

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues

Curry Kenworthy wrote: > Although it's quite possible to save data in stack file(s) if you do > it properly, people who follow that route often have trouble, so I > discourage it. Depends what's in the stack file. The traditional factoring of code, UI, and data became a best practice for good

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues

Although it's quite possible to save data in stack file(s) if you do it properly, people who follow that route often have trouble, so I discourage it. It's very tempting to try and save data to the distribution folder, or to mix data and user interface together! Quite the sticky, messy mixtu

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues

Windows: Regarding the many replies to the question of allowing saving a stack file I would like to thank everybody for the answers by Matthias, Bob, Alex, Jacqueline, JJS ... The problem was that a stack file used by a compiled splash stack does not save on some client's computers with Windows sy

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues

When I first distributed my Forms Generator to Windows users, I had it put into the Program Files folder. They immediately reported CTD almost as soon as they launched the app and after signing in. I traced it to the fact that I routinely save my stacks by script in development so I do not lose

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues

yes "documents" on mobile is also ok Op 15-1-2019 om 20:19 schreef J. Landman Gay via use-livecode: The best folder to write to on mobile is "documents". Both iOS and Android are sandboxed and disallow writing to either "engine" or "resources". On 1/15/19 12:04 PM, JJS via use-livecode wrote:

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues

The best folder to write to on mobile is "documents". Both iOS and Android are sandboxed and disallow writing to either "engine" or "resources". On 1/15/19 12:04 PM, JJS via use-livecode wrote: You could also use "home" as it works on 3 desktop platforms and iOs. Linux does not have a "support

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues

Bob Sneidar wrote: > Yes, with Windows 10, there is a feature called Sandboxing, where even > if your logged in user has write permissions to where the stack is > saving, you will still not be able to write there. Program Files is a > great example. The solution is not to save stacks. Stacks sho

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues

I would consider putting a check in the splash stack for the existence of the 'tilde' file, and removing/renaming it before opening the mainstack. An ugly workaround until a proper fix happens - but maybe worth thinking about ? Alex. On 15/01/2019 09:59, R.H. via use-livecode wrote: Failed

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues

You could also use "home" as it works on 3 desktop platforms and iOs. Linux does not have a "support". and Android uses "Engine" Op 15-1-2019 om 17:38 schreef Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode: There should be no problem to copy/write/save a stack to the folder AppData . This is the recommended

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues

There should be no problem to copy/write/save a stack to the folder AppData . This is the recommended place if your app needs to write data to disk. It can be access using specialfolderpath("Support") or specialfolderpath(26). Or has this really changed in Windows 10? Matthias Rebbe free tools

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues

Yes, with Windows 10, there is a feature called Sandboxing, where even if your logged in user has write permissions to where the stack is saving, you will still not be able to write there. Program Files is a great example. The solution is not to save stacks. Stacks should not be the place you s

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues

I cannot see this behaviour here and on our clients computers. Our standalones with substacks are running on several Win10 machines. All theses standalones use preferences stacks, which are saved from within the standalones. The standalones were created with LC 9.0.1 Business. We are delivering

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues

Failed saving onWindows 10 (all latest versions of LiveCode) I am talking about a compiled business related stack (small compiled splash, main stack not compiled in a resource folder and various resources) that goes to clients. Some of my clients experience that the main stack is not saving and w

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

I meant I have just tested it here with LC9.0.2 Matthias Rebbe free tools for Livecoders: https://instamaker.dermattes.de https://winsignhelper.dermattes.de > Am 09.01.2019 um 10:33 schrieb Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

The whole discussion made me remembering that on my Mac i noticed a really significant performance loss in SE when outputting large data in message box. When this is happening i can hear my fans boosting and the cpu temperature is increasing. As soon as i close the message box or empty it the SE

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

AndyP wrote: > This 'thrashing about' of messages may also explain why the situation > (speed) is impacted when the project browser and message box are > open? Components that need frequent updates to reflect current state can indeed be tricky. You may find this report interesting, esp. Commen

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

This 'thrashing about' of messages may also explain why the situation (speed) is impacted when the project browser and message box are open? - Andy Piddock My software never has bugs. It just develops random features. TinyIDE a Free alternative minimalist IDE Plugin for LiveCode Sc

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

On 1/8/19 3:36 PM, Monte Goulding via use-livecode wrote: On 9 Jan 2019, at 6:56 am, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote: Even more interesting IMO is all the attempts to access revapplicationoverview.mc Thanks - I've added a note on that detail in my report: https://quality.livecode.

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

> On 9 Jan 2019, at 6:56 am, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode > wrote: > > > Even more interesting IMO is all the attempts to access > > revapplicationoverview.mc > > Thanks - I've added a note on that detail in my report: > > https://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=21782 >

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

Mark Wieder wrote: > On 1/7/19 9:38 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote: >> ...an interesting thing about file access is a lot of lstat and >> open calls apparently looking for, and not finding, the App >> Overview stack file: >> >> lstat("/home/rg/.runrev/components/livecodeindy-9.0.2.x86_

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

On 1/7/19 9:38 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote: At a quick skim I see evidence of a lot of timers (which we would expect given the SE's features), but an interesting thing about file access is a lot of lstat and open calls apparently looking for, and not finding, the App Overview stac

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

Correct. Op 8-1-2019 om 00:09 schreef Richard Gaskin via use-livecode: JJS wrote: > I added .rev .livescript and livecode.exe to Windows Defender and have > not had an slow issue since and keeping fingers crossed. That's very valuable, thanks. So just to confirm, you did not need to turn off R

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

On 1/7/19 9:38 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote: It's super-annoying to try to scroll though, and no, I haven't read every line (I'll leave that for more diligent souls like Mark Wieder, who will probably run that when he reads this ). OMW -- Mark Wieder ahsoftw...@gmail.com ___

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

It's kind of always been this way. I remember getting brand new Dells, installing all the software they need, joining domain etc. Last step was installing AV. The reason I put that last because the performance hit if I did it first would have doubled my deployment time. Bob S > On Jan 8, 201

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

Bob Sneidar wrote: >> On Jan 7, 2019, at 17:59 , Richard Gaskin wrote: >> >> Maybe this is one more reason to move everything to the cloud, >> to end the tyrrany of overzealously monitored local disk I/O. :) >> >> I honestly don't have the quick-fix answer that will keep our >> customers happy wi

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

SSD? Bob S > On Jan 7, 2019, at 17:59 , Richard Gaskin via use-livecode > wrote: > > Maybe this is one more reason to move everything to the cloud, to end the > tyrrany of overzealously monitored local disk I/O. :) > > I honestly don't have the quick-fix answer that will keep our customers

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

It is mostly on change but also when SE windows get suspended.  Also when a SE window is closed if it has been >20s it does get saved as a precaution.  I’d need to dig in some more to see how frequently it is being saved while using the SE and trace code if warranted. I found this much just by

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

Brian: > The file is saved regularly, but not at the interval that I thought. One more hint - during symptoms, after making a new text selection with the mouse (as opposed to just typing on a line) there was an especially big delay before the field would be responsive again. To be successful

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

Richard: > Personally, I feel no driving need to try to take Mark > Waddingham to school. I have the utmost respect for Mark and his tremendous knowledge. And for everyone else high or low for that matter. I don't play favorites or tiptoe, I treat people the same. As the old saying goes, it

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

Curry Kenworthy wrote: > And I have the same respect for all, PHD or GED, but neither gets a > free buddy pass from the laws of our universe (or from myself, since > I also notice those laws) on what works best. Uh, all right then. Personally, I feel no driving need to try to take Mark Waddingh

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

Brian Milby wrote: > I've looked into the pref save code and it isn't as bad as I thought. > The file is saved regularly, but not at the interval that I thought. > It does have a half second delay which should prevent too many file > writes (the actual save is debounced 500ms in the future, so if

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

Brian: > I've looked into the pref save code and it isn't as bad as I thought. That's good...maybe something a bit closer to the auto formatting and replace features, and whatever organizes them? Who knows, it could be something outside the SE that just happens to interfere, I don't like t

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

Richard: > Everyone on the LC dev team is either a CS or advanced > mathematics graduate. > I'm more interested in those of us who do not hold a doctorate in CS That's why I mentioned both - the same rules apply to everyone. Not just in the LC world either. Math, physics, gravity, good or bad

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

I've looked into the pref save code and it isn't as bad as I thought. The file is saved regularly, but not at the interval that I thought. It does have a half second delay which should prevent too many file writes (the actual save is debounced 500ms in the future, so if another save request comes

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

Curry Kenworthy wrote: > Richard: ... >> How many devs among us are shipping apps which rely on >> frequent disk saves? > > Not the devs that heed my usual advice and KISS philosophy. :) > > But any system-intensive action performed too often or at the wrong > time during typing, animation, or ot

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

Richard: Curry, I haven't questioned your findings in the report. On the contrary, I confirmed them. Few of my customers use the LC Script Editor, so they don't care about it. But they do use the software that we ship to them. Thanks Richard. Yes - I also do frequent training, so any IDE

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

Curry, I haven't questioned your findings in the report. On the contrary, I confirmed them. We don't disagree on observable data. We merely differ on focus: Few of my customers use the LC Script Editor, so they don't care about it. But they do use the software that we ship to them. And sin

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

Brian: > I think I know the issue then... look at how often the pref file > is written. Throttle/turn that off and see what happens. > I was thinking that earlier today but those test results make me > want to investigate that further. Thanks Brian, fixing things up as usual! Best wishes,

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

Richard: > But writing files - damn! Now I understand what the reporters > in the forums have been talking about. LOL, great test to verify the impact, but it incredibly closely follows my documented prediction on Dec 12: > A relevant question on our side of the equation is whether LC > is

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

I think I know the issue then... look at how often the pref file is written.   Throttle/turn that off and see what happens. I was thinking that earlier today but those test results make me want to investigate that further. Thanks, Brian On Jan 7, 2019, 8:40 PM -0600, Richard Gaskin via use-livec

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

J. Landman Gay wrote: > I'm willing to bet that any slowdown in the SE not related to AV > intervention is probably the new auto-complete features. I've > turned most of them off and I see no speed decrease. Same here. But since the LC IDE is written in LCS, anything it does to trigger this wid

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

Jacqueline: > I'm willing to bet that any slowdown in the SE not related to > AV intervention is probably the new auto-complete features. > I've turned most of them off and I see no speed decrease. Thanks Jacqueline, very true - that's yet another separate SE performance issue! Very good for

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

I'm willing to bet that any slowdown in the SE not related to AV intervention is probably the new auto-complete features. I've turned most of them off and I see no speed decrease. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com On January

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

JJS: > Speed, what are we talking about? milliseconds? > Overall i find it working great with enough speed. > Microsoft will probably not be interested that LC > will run slow due to their product. It looks like your reply MIGHT be referencing more general LC 9 ENGINE performance, an unrelate

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

Richard: > And now the issue has become doubly conflated. > To review, there are two issues in this thread: Yes, I happened to mention that initial conflation today BEFORE you did, with some slight differences. Your post shadowed mine. > With your addition, we now have a third concern intro

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

JJS wrote: > I added .rev .livescript and livecode.exe to Windows Defender and have > not had an slow issue since and keeping fingers crossed. That's very valuable, thanks. So just to confirm, you did not need to turn off Real Time Protection, just exclude two file types and one EXE? -- Richa

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

Yes whitelisting is an option, but not for distributing apps. Well, not much of an option. Anytime you make users do something to their OS or AV to get your app to work, people get real nervous. Bob S > On Jan 7, 2019, at 14:06 , JJS via use-livecode > wrote: > > Speed, what are we talking

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

Speed, what are we talking about? milliseconds? It depends on where you need speed for. Overall i find it working great with enough speed. I work with a very known American company, and the software they use is about to cry. screen flickers, it's as slow as hell and everybody has to work with

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

Curry Kenworthy wrote: Since Windows Defender is fairly unlikely to be the oh-so-sneaky culprit when similar issues show up running the LC 9 Script Editor on the Mac platform... And now the issue has become doubly conflated. To review, there are two issues in this thread: a) Windows Defende

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

Bob Sneidar wrote: > Richard wrote: >> > Do you know what Defender is doing that other more full-featured >> packages aren't in terms of application performance impairment? > > No, but I can guess that it is much as has been posted prior to this. > Virtually all malware deterrent products use sub

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

As I've (seriously) joked previously in my bug 21604 report that has been referenced already in this thread: Since Windows Defender is fairly unlikely to be the oh-so-sneaky culprit when similar issues show up running the LC 9 Script Editor on the Mac platform, :D therefore it's highly doub

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

No, but I can guess that it is much as has been posted prior to this. Virtually all malware deterrent products use subscription based services, and many of them get their malware signature data from the same sources. False positives are not unheard of, although I suspect they are fairly rare.

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

Bob Sneidar wrote: > We disable Windows Defender via group policy. A lot of IT > administrators do. It's not that it's a bad product, it's that > there are alternatives in the marketplace that provide a great > many more features, like central management and distribution > of policies, which can

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

We disable Windows Defender via group policy. A lot of IT administrators do. It's not that it's a bad product, it's that there are alternatives in the marketplace that provide a great many more features, like central management and distribution of policies, which can universally whitelist folder

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

Matthias Rebbe wrote: >> Am 06.01.2019 um 20:31 schrieb Richard Gaskin: >> I don't believe certificates have been confirmed as the >> differentiator for apps immune to this Microsoft bug, but >> if anyone can confirm that please add it to the notes in >> the report: >> https://quality.livecode.co

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

Is there a sample stack, maybe a benchmark stack, i could test under Win10 which shows the behaviour with defender and does it not with defender inactive? I then could test the created standalone with and wihtout signing. Matthias Matthias Rebbe > Am 06.01.2019 um 20:31 schrieb Richard Gaski

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

Matthias Rebbe wrote: >> The responsibility would probably be on you, the app developer, to >> get an exclusion for your particular app. I don't know much about >> how Defender works, but getting a signing certificate from MS may >> be one way to legitimize the app. > > So that´s maybe the reason

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

> > The responsibility would probably be on you, the app developer, to get an > exclusion for your particular app. I don't know much about how Defender > works, but getting a signing certificate from MS may be one way to legitimize > the app. So that´s maybe the reason, why no one of my custo

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

Tom Glod wrote: > Hi folks, I'd like to know if there is any chance that the issues with > windows defender interfering in the normal operation of the LiveCode > engine is something that can and will be looked at? > > Is there any communication between Microsoft and Livecode inc? > > Is there any

Re: windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

Most software I've seen does ask users to whitelist their app in any anti-virus software the user has. I don't think LC could ask for exclusions for any app it builds, it's a development platform. Anyone could take the free version, write some malware, and distribute it. That would be like ask

windows defender issues? & other AV issues?

Hi folks, I'd like to know if there is any chance that the issues with windows defender interfering in the normal operation of the LiveCode engine is something that can and will be looked at? Is there any communication between Microsoft and Livecode inc? Is there any hope that we won't have to pu