Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

>> About growing the PMC, I suppose we're looping here ;-). IIUC, again, I >> think the point is precisely to define those values/rules to be able to >> induct more serenely new PMC members while asking them to adhere to those >> definitions. >> > > I think that, so far, this idea has not found mu

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

On 02/08/2013 12:56 AM, Baptiste MATHUS wrote: 2013/8/2 Ron Wheeler > On 01/08/2013 5:55 PM, Jonathan Sharp wrote: I think John C raises an interesting case here, where the voting process can fall down. A large code d

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

2013/8/2 Ron Wheeler > On 01/08/2013 5:55 PM, Jonathan Sharp wrote: > >> I think John C raises an interesting case here, where the voting process >> can fall down. >> >> A large code dump like that can hurt the quality of documentation and >> support (in addition to team morale). >> > It depends

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

On 01/08/2013 5:55 PM, Jonathan Sharp wrote: I think John C raises an interesting case here, where the voting process can fall down. A large code dump like that can hurt the quality of documentation and support (in addition to team morale). It depends on how good the code and documentation is!

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

I think John C raises an interesting case here, where the voting process can fall down. A large code dump like that can hurt the quality of documentation and support (in addition to team morale). My $.02 Jon On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 2:36 PM, John Casey wrote: > > It's about whether you expect

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

the one being "freed". -Original Message- From: Ron Wheeler [mailto:rwhee...@artifact-software.com] Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 9:45 PM To: users@maven.apache.org Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit:

RE: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

w we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md) On 26/07/2013 11:35 AM, Baptiste MATHUS wrote: > Le 25 juil. 2013 23:05, "Stephen Connolly" > a écrit : >> Perhaps we could reframe the question a lit

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

On 26/07/2013 11:35 AM, Baptiste MATHUS wrote: Le 25 juil. 2013 23:05, "Stephen Connolly" a écrit : Perhaps we could reframe the question a little then (as people seem to be testing hung up on the committed wording)... Should the PMC encourage people experimenting on new improvements to Maven

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

Le 25 juil. 2013 23:05, "Stephen Connolly" a écrit : > > Perhaps we could reframe the question a little then (as people seem to be > testing hung up on the committed wording)... > > Should the PMC encourage people experimenting on new improvements to Maven > to do that work at the ASF? Sure. I do

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

On 25/07/2013 5:05 PM, Stephen Connolly wrote: Perhaps we could reframe the question a little then (as people seem to be testing hung up on the committed wording)... Should the PMC encourage people experimenting on new improvements to Maven to do that work at the ASF? And if so, should they then

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

On 25/07/2013 5:32 PM, Stephen Connolly wrote: On 25 July 2013 22:17, Paul Benedict wrote: Stephen, those are great questions. Yet, I think these questions are riding an assumption that PMC members are solely volunteering at Apache, because the emphasis (as I interpret your words) is to place

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

Maven is open source and anyone can do whatever they want with it. That is the whole point of the Apache license. If the code splits off and a new open source product emerges that is better than Maven, then we all win. To prevent this, the Maven PMC has to make the right choices about the Maven

RE: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the > Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - > /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md) > From: pbened...@apache.org > To: jdca...@commonjava.org; stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com &

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

Agreed. I'll tip my hand and give my opinion: PMC members should have an "Apache first" mentality. They are gatekeepers and guardians of their project. Spinning off critical code to other OSS organizations should be frowned upon -- it splits the development and wider community into smaller pieces.

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

Stephen, those are great questions. Yet, I think these questions are riding an assumption that PMC members are solely volunteering at Apache, because the emphasis (as I interpret your words) is to place the Apache project first/above other external contributions. Isn't that the heart of this debate

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

On 7/25/13 4:17 PM, Paul Benedict wrote: Stephen, those are great questions. Yet, I think these questions are riding an assumption that PMC members are solely volunteering at Apache, because the emphasis (as I interpret your words) is to place the Apache project first/above other external contrib

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

On 25 July 2013 22:17, Paul Benedict wrote: > Stephen, those are great questions. Yet, I think these questions are riding > an assumption that PMC members are solely volunteering at Apache, because > the emphasis (as I interpret your words) is to place the Apache project > first/above other exter

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

Perhaps we could reframe the question a little then (as people seem to be testing hung up on the committed wording)... Should the PMC encourage people experimenting on new improvements to Maven to do that work at the ASF? And if so, should they then practice what they preach, and ensure that any e

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

Hi, I think the point is quite simple. I agree with Jason that work should be the main criteria if not the only one. But as Stephen reminds, we should define "work" in a larger general sense than just code. Working for the community as worshipped by the ASF can be pushing code, sure, but also helpi

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

On 26 July 2013 03:25, Andreas Gudian wrote: > I tend to agree with Jason: the PMC needs people who *do* stuff, meaning: > * bring the project foward (with discussions like this one, or the > JDK5/JDK6 threads). > * keep a close eye on commits. > * keep a very close eye on release votes. > * conti

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

On Thursday, 25 July 2013, Ron Wheeler wrote: > The last thing that you need is a bunch of smart committed people who talk > about doing stuff the "Apache way" but don't actually write code or > participate in supporting users. The key thing is it is not just about writing code. We need people

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

The last thing that you need is a bunch of smart committed people who talk about doing stuff the "Apache way" but don't actually write code or participate in supporting users. If someone is writing code that works, faster than the rest of the team can read it, you are in a great position. Get

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

I gather that the process is a simple vote by the existing members. Perhaps this is one of those things that is best left uncodified and allow each person who has to make the decision to chose their own criteria. Clearly people like to work with people that they find intelligent, people whose

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

+1 On 25/07/2013 11:16 AM, Jason van Zyl wrote: So what's outlined in those paragraphs have counter examples at the ASF. I do not believe it is a bad thing to have alternative distributions or forks, and it doesn't matter where they are. What you are saying is that committers are obliged to s

RE: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

conno...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:37 AM To: Maven Users List Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md) The Apache Foundation v

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

...@tesla.io] > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 9:56 AM > To: Maven Users List > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want > the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - > /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md) > &g

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

d > > On Thursday, 25 July 2013, Sankaran, Nambi wrote: > >> +1 >> >> The candidates should be people who contribute in terms of code/patch. >> >> -Original Message----- >> From: Jason van Zyl [mailto:ja...@tesla.io] >> Sent: Thursday, July 25,

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

@tesla.io] > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 9:56 AM > To: Maven Users List > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want > the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - > /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md) > > > On Jul 25,

RE: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md) On Jul 25, 2013, at 12:03 PM, Stephen Connolly wrote: > As part of trying to kick this project back to life, we need to grow > both committers and the PMC. > You don't need ei

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

On Jul 25, 2013, at 12:03 PM, Stephen Connolly wrote: > As part of trying to kick this project back to life, we need to grow both > committers and the PMC. > You don't need either. You need people who do work. People who do work may happen to be a committer or PMC member but you have it back

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

As part of trying to kick this project back to life, we need to grow both committers and the PMC. One of the issues with growing either is determining if potential candidates are the "right sort of person". There is a disagreement in the PMC as to whether "dedication to the Maven project communit

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

The section that was added below has nothing to do with the rest of the document. It should be reverted, as it is basically nonsense as Jason has just pointed out. Maven has lots of other problems. This really doesn't seem like one anyone should be spending any time or energy on. Stephen On 25

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

So what's outlined in those paragraphs have counter examples at the ASF. I do not believe it is a bad thing to have alternative distributions or forks, and it doesn't matter where they are. What you are saying is that committers are obliged to share all their work with other committers. Which is

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

I think I'm with Ron Wheeler here. I'd add though: are you a “Project Manager” if you don't contribute to the project the changes you're doing in a fork? My gut feeling would be “no”, but that'd be ignoring the amount of contributions to the project itself (I know who you're talking about, but I h

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

On Thursday, 25 July 2013, Curtis Rueden wrote: > Hi Stephen and everyone, > > I largely agree with Nigel, and would add that in general, bureaucratic > rules prohibiting various (often technically and/or socially sound) actions > such as forking are a great way to ensure that skilled people dista

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

Hi Stephen and everyone, I largely agree with Nigel, and would add that in general, bureaucratic rules prohibiting various (often technically and/or socially sound) actions such as forking are a great way to ensure that skilled people distance themselves from the organization (i.e., quit the PMC,

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

There is clearly an underlying issue that prompts this question. My understanding is that members of the PMC are selected by other members of the PMC. There is no democratic "will of the people" involved. I am not sure how people get kicked off the PMC. What are the official grounds for asking s

Re: [DISCUSS] Should the Maven PMC be an example of how we want the Maven Community to behave (was Re: svn commit: r1506778 - /maven/site/trunk/content/markdown/project-roles.md)

That whole section I find pretty bizarre. - Apache is about (open-source) software. - Writing code is *good*. - Forks are *good* * * I'm put in mind of Linus' talk about why git distribution is so important - that 'if you don't think I'm doing a good job, then you can just take your code from anot