OK - Let's dissect Stephen's post.
When you take out the padding, he claims that "a typical Briton's day" includes
the following encounters with imperial/metric
"as I was driving my dash presented me with miles/ mph"
Yeah. It probably did. If it had an analogue speedo (like the vast majority of
UK cars) it would show km/h too. From this, we can deduce that Stephen's car
has a digital speedo or he's not telling the full truth.
"and the signs I saw were almost all miles/yds"
Notice the use of "almost". That's a pretty vague term. Why is Stephen
reluctant to give a more precise figure?
"(there were some width/ height but these were imperial as I was driving
country routes)"
I live in a very rural area (far more rural than Stephen) The slight majority
of width/height signs are dual where I stay. Why is there such a difference in
Stephen's local area?
Incidentally, why does Stephen not mention weight restriction signs? Is it
because they are practically all metric (apart from some obsolete old signs
that haven't been taken down)?
The LCD display showed my engine temp in Celsius - I have it that way as the
coolant is water - thus? I think you can see my thinking here!! ;-)
A beautiful example of Stephen's misdirection! I find it very hard to believe
that his car has a coolant system that works with pure water at atmospheric
pressure. The coolant mixture is highly unlikely to boil at 100 degrees C as he
implies. The anti-freeze will lower the boiling temperature and the fact that
the system is pressurised will act in the opposite direction.
In addition, I've never owned a car that displays the coolant temperature in
any other way than a uncalibrated gauge. Can Stephen confirm which car he has
that displays coolant temp via a digital display & how it indicates that the
coolant temp is too high?
"I had to pop to halfords on the way back - they sell car bits. I need some
oil for the mini.
There are sat nav ads everywhere. Now originally I noted that they always
advertised the unit with a visible 'metres' on the advertised screen (as if UK
drivers would want that) - as John F-L might say - no one forced them to do
that. Now, however they're all advertised using yards in the screen shot. I
wonder if people wanted to make sure that they're unit matched their speedo,
roads etc? I've yet to see someone set their GPS to metres".
As usual, Stephen concentrates on one dual product available in the store &
makes claims that it is used only in imperial. He ignores previous debates
regarding calculating UK mountain heights (using GPS) in metres.
So - I go into Halfords. What do I buy? 4.5 Litres of Magnetec Oil - up
clicks my 'metric quota'.
Yeah. He has to give ONE example of metric use to pretend to be unbiased.
Now, I'll be fair. I've not been in a Halfords in a while. Last time I was in
one, windscreen wiper blades, bike frames/tyres & satnavs were all given in
dual. Practically everything else was metric only....................
So Stephen. Why not tell us about a real day?
You know. You could pretend that you had dual-marked waffles & milk for
breakfast and that you were stopped by the police & asked your imperial-only
height on the way to work.
I'll leave you to make up the rest of the story
--- On Fri, 10/4/09, Stephen Humphreys <barkatf...@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Stephen Humphreys <barkatf...@hotmail.com>
Subject: [USMA:44537] Re: metric Britain
To: "U.S. Metric Association" <usma@colostate.edu>
Date: Friday, 10 April, 2009, 5:49 PM
#yiv118830444 .hmmessage P
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Thanks for the chance Ezra - much appreciated.
To be honest the best way is to visit this country - although I admit that's a
rather costly option!!
I also think - to be fair - that your opinion can shape the way you see things.
Say I was a conservative MP - and you asked me how well Labour was governing
the UK - how would I respond?
That said - I really honestly do see myself as 'pro-choice' with a 'general
preference' to imperial (but not always) so it's not as clear cut as polarised
politicians.
You've got me thinking though! Maybe I should take a moment to think about
these things.
We just popped out to see an old Stag (not wildlife, an old Triumph car) and
you can assume that as I was driving my dash presented me with miles/ mph, and
the signs I saw were almost all miles/yds (there were some width/ height but
these were imperial as I was driving country routes). The LCD display showed
my engine temp in Celsius - I have it that way as the coolant is water - thus?
I think you can see my thinking here!! ;-)
I had to pop to halfords on the way back - they sell car bits. I need some oil
for the mini.
There are sat nav ads everywhere. Now originally I noted that they always
advertised the unit with a visible 'metres' on the advertised screen (as if UK
drivers would want that) - as John F-L might say - no one forced them to do
that. Now, however they're all advertised using yards in the screen shot. I
wonder if people wanted to make sure that they're unit matched their speedo,
roads etc? I've yet to see someone set their GPS to metres.
So - I go into Halfords. What do I buy? 4.5 Litres of Magnetec Oil - up
clicks my 'metric quota'.
Looking back so far - what's the most visual element to my day? I'd say the
celsius in my car and the imperial road signs. My mini's spec tells me how
many pints to put in - BUT - when I do the oil change I tend to put in 4
litres and use the dipstick for the rest. So measures do get involved a bit
but I'd argue that it's more like the Tesco debate - ie the use of measures is
less important than the scale visually. That's why I asked a question (a while
ago) whether if US pro-mets had just one 'Genie wish' would they 'do the roads'
or 'do the shelf edge'. I think you all know what would be preferable.
I will always argue that the best gauge is what people 'SAY' and 'ACTUALLY
READ' rather than the funny print on the side of a packet. Maybe that's why
roads and pints at the pub are seemingly guarded by politicians and the press?
Because that's a really tangible alteration that people would actually notice.
Also - please remember that during a course of a day measurements make up a
tiny portion of living - lets get some scale (insert pun) to this - there are
more important things in life. Mine - today - was seeing this stag. As it
happens the sat nav took us to a dead end with no car sales garage - so the
story goes full circle in the end!
What other experience would you want me to dig deeper into, Ezra? A day at
work? A visit to Tesco? Another drive in the car? I'll do my best and be as
honest as possible (I've nothing against the metric system - it just seems odd
that I have to fight an odd american who keeps changing his name who admits he
has never been here but 'knows' more than I do about life here!!!)
From: ezra.steinb...@comcast.net
To: barkatf...@hotmail.com; usma@colostate.edu
Subject: Re: [USMA:44516] Re: metric Britain
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 09:41:54 -0700
#yiv118830444 .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P
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It seems like Stephen makes a good point. Perhaps he can describe a typical
(even if a bit synthesized) day to illustrate the various encounters with
Imperial that pop throughout his day. I think this would give me (as a distant
American) a better feel for the everyday experience the typical Briton has of
Imperial vs metric.
thanks,
Ezra
----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Humphreys
To: U.S. Metric Association
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 7:02 AM
Subject: [USMA:44516] Re: metric Britain
If you can ignore measures related to moving around anywhere outside your home
(whether on foot on bike or in car), or if you can avoid talking to other
Britons, or if you can avoid reading newspapers or listening to the TV or if
you can live without the radio ie - If reading the side of cartons and looking
on the edge of a bottle constitutes the extent that the UK has become very
metric friendly then.....
yes.
you have a point!
:-D
P.S. I also believe this is the way the USA is becoming regarding metric - ie
metric progress in labelling
From: j...@frewston.plus.com
To: usma@colostate.edu
Subject: [USMA:44507] Re: metric Britain
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 13:34:12 +0100
At the risk of flogging a dead horse, the attached scans confirm that Britain
is far more metric than people like Stephen Humphreys like to make out. One of
the scans shows a recipe that is on a small packing slip/newsletter that comes
with a weekly organic veggie box my other half has on order from a local farm,
Woodlands Farm (this really is local, not national or even county-wide). The
recipe is metric. This from a farmer in Lincolnshire, a very conservative (and
Conservative) part of the country. [For US readers, Conservatives are similar
to Republicans, i.e. right wing as opposed to left wing Labour, equivalent
to Democrats.]
The other scans are from an installation booklet that came with a new electric
shower I recently bought. Apart from a single reference to an inlet pipe
diameter, it is ENTIRELY metric.
I believe that, as I've said before, it is politicians aided and abetted by,
for whatever reason, a hostile UK press, who are trying to prevent Britain from
becoming fully metric. I believe the average person is quite comfortable with
metric - how else to explain, for example, the recipe I've attached? There was
no legal compulsion for it to be printed in metric - yet Woodland Farm
obviously felt that was what their customers wanted.
Have a good Easter everybody - I'm off now for my 400 km drive to my cousins's
flat in Bournemouth.
Cheers
John F-L
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeremiah MacGregor
To: U.S. Metric Association
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 5:44 AM
Subject: [USMA:44499] Re: metric Britain
You are deliberately trying to obfuscate the issue. The man simply did an
inventory of his kitchen cupboards and refrigerator to get a sample of
how British industry marks their packages. He proved that the vast majority
are metric only. Thus in all honest from his inventory we can say British
industry is NOT imperial friendly.
Where measurement is important, such as in engineering and manufacturing, again
metric is dominant if not the only system used. In this environment there is
no imperial and definitely no dual..
In buying a ladder, there is no measurement. You buy it by description. In
making a ladder there is measurement and those units are metric (millimetres).
Stephen, everyone knows you use minute and insignificant details in order to
present a far different picture then reality. You really need to wake up and
get real. Your fantasy version of the use of imperial is very opposite that of
the real world.
Have you ever done an inventory like John did? Or is your cupboard and
refrigerator bare due to your personal boycott of anything metric?
Jerry
From: Stephen Humphreys <barkatf...@hotmail.com>
To: jeremiahmacgre...@rocketmail.com; U.S. Metric Association
<usma@colostate.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2009 3:05:52 PM
Subject: RE: [USMA:44421] Re: metric Britain
In all honesty - you could approach this at an imperial-friendly or
metric-friendly (or dual-friendly) argument to prove a point.
I'd suggest that there's prob more metric than imperial however with things
regarding items where measurement is important you'll usually get imperial or
dual.
I had to buy a ladder most recently -you can probably guess the length shown
and the human weight it cold withstand - Thus for that shopping experience it
was excusively 'dual'.
I'm not sure why you reacted so bizzarely to this "Jerry" - most people know
how it is.
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 19:14:09 -0700
From: jeremiahmacgre...@rocketmail.com
Subject: [USMA:44421] Re: metric Britain
To: usma@colostate.edu
John,
Shame on you for showing us that imperial is virtually dead in the UK. Stephen
wanted everyone here to believe that imperial is everywhere. I sure would like
to see what is in Stephen's cupboards and fridge. If a person refuses to buy
anything metric then I would expect his fridge to contain only milk and his
cupboards to contain chalk, pear and apple spread, Specialty coffee for
cafetierres and some Belgian Waffles (not shown).
Jerry
From: John Frewen-Lord <j...@frewston.plus.com>
To: U.S. Metric Association <usma@colostate.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 1:39:24 PM
Subject: [USMA:44400] metric Britain
Regarding the recent discussions on dual marking/labelling in respect of the
UK, I just thought I'd do a quick check on various items I have in my house. I
have listed a total of 57 items (no connection to Mr Heinz!), these I feel
being somewhat representative of our shopping and DIY activities. This is far,
far from exhaustive (we obviously have far too much stuff in our house!). Some
items are national name brands (e..g. Branston, makers of pickle and other
garnishes), and are shown in single quotes. Tesco, Asda (owned by Wal-Mart),
Morrisons, Somerfield and Waitrose are UK supermarket chains, Tesco being the
biggest. I couldn't find any Sainsburys items, another supermarket chain, so I
guess we don't shop there much! B&Q, Wickes and Homebase are DIY chains.
I found just four items that had imperial marking as well as metric - and for
only one of them was the quantity a rational imperial quantity (but shown as
metric first). However, this is an item we have had in our fridge for a long
time, and it is quite likely to have since been repackaged in a rational metric
size. The interesting thing is that I really had to hunt for ANYTHING that had
an imperial marking - everything IS metric.
That said, some of the metric sizes are a bit odd (740 mL, 340 g, etc). But
still metric, no imperial shown.
I have shown the quantity labelling EXACTLY as it appears on the packaging,
errors and all.
If you like metric (and we obviously all do, with the exception of Stephen
Humphreys), then enjoy!!
John F-L
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Garage/workshop
B&Q 'Zorbo' halogen light fixture - base 50 cm long, projection 70 cm long
Wickes quick drying varnish - 1 Litre
B&Q bevelled edge mirror - 600 mm x 600 mm (24" x 24" approx.) 4mm thick 3.6kg
weight
Wickes marking chalk - 50g/1.75oz
Homebase pine cladding - 94mm x 9mm, Length = 2.4metre
B&Q Plastic angle - 2400 x 12 x 12
B&Q Chamferred architrave [wood door trim in US-speak] - 15mm x 45mm x 2.1M
[that is an upper case M]
Wickes pine Scotia moulding - 15 x 15 x 2400
Wickes silicone sealant - 310 ml
B&Q foam/rubber draft excluder - 15mm x 5.1m
Halfords windscreen [windshield in US-speak] washer antifreeze concentrate - 2
Litres (makes up to 5 Litres of washer fluid)
Food and kitchen
Specialty coffee for cafetierres, package of 8 boxes, each box - 75g/2.65oz
Morrisons pre-packed bacon - 250 g
'Natures Best' cod liver oil - 300ml
'Pure' non-dairy soya spread - 500g
'Whole Foods' pear & apple spread - 227g/8oz
'Bay Tree' Christmas marmalade - 340g
Morrisons pre-wrapped individually priced broccoli - 0.370 kg [and priced at
192p/kg]
Morrisons pre-packaged mozzarella cheese - 200g
Evian bottled water - 1l [cursive l]
Tesco bottled water - 5 Litres
Quaker instant porridge oats - 1 kg
Tesco grapefruit juice - 1 Litre
'Veggie Wash' fruit and vegetable wash - 500ml
Tesco frozen peas - 1 kg
'Julian Graves' rice crackers - 250g
Somerfield custard powder - 300 g
'Amoy' soy sauce - 250ml
'Young's' 5 Coley Fillets (frozen) - 500 g
'Branston' canned spaghetti Bolognese - 410 g
'Lindt' Dark Chocolate - 100 g
Tesco kitchen foil - 10 metres, 30cm wide approx.
Waitrose syrup - 740ml
'Birds Eye' petis pois - 750g
Cleaners/laundry
'Flash' cleaning spray - 500 ml
'Fairy' washing up liquid - 500ml
Tesco dishwasher powder - 3 kg
Tesco fabric conditioner - 1 Litre
'Finish' dishwasher salt - 2 kg
Asda dishwasher rinse aid - 250 ml
Boots [national chemist/drugstore chain] sterilising liquid - 600 ml
Somerfield bathroom spray cleaner - 500 ml
'Domestos' spray cleaner - 500ml
'Delta' carper cleaner refill - 500ml
'Ecover' ecological laundry detergent - 1,5 L
'Vanish' laundry spray treatment - 500ml
Asda toilet cleanser - 500ml
'Shower Shine' shower cleaner - Big 1 Litre Value for the price of 750ml
Bathroom
Tesco shaving foam - 250 ml
RightGuard stick deodorant - 50 g
'Nivea' face wash - 30 ml
L'Oreal shampoo/conditioner - 250ml
'Imperial Leather' 4-pack bar soap - 4 x 125g
'Wella' hair toner - 14ml
'Boots' SPF15 suntan lotion - 200 ml
'Nivea' spray deodorant - 92g/150ml
Tesco herbal shampoo - 750ml
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