Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 4:06 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > I think this romantic notion of yeomen living on their own is > unrealistic. As Samuel Florman points out, people have a high expectation > of consumer health and safety, and that calls for a high tech society with > millions of industrial s

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

Eric Walker wrote: The way society currently works is it has law courts and police and elected > representatives; I would prefer to iterate on this model than replace it > wholesale. > My point exactly. It is regrettable that our society must rely on law backed by a threat of violence. This is n

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 1:23 PM, Craig wrote: Yes, I'm referring to the law. The law is backed by violence and threats > of violence. Library fines are agreed upon when a person signs up for > the library; but it's not valid to take a large geographic area and > claim the authority to control the

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 1:02 PM, James Bowery wrote: Since the banks don't have anything profitable to invest in, they instead > invest in ... politicians and government officials. > See: http://imagecache5d.allposters.com/watermarker/71-7117-T2BM100Z.jpg Eric

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month Chris Zell wrote: But this money printing (or the creation of monetary reserves) does not produce inflation automatically. After living thru the '70's, this came as a shock to me. It still looks very

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

Sorting proponents of social theories into governments that test them is far from a light and transient cause. It is the penetration of the Enlightenment into the social sciences. It is the completion of the American Revolution. Indeed, to pursue any other route is unethical in only dimensions t

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

true reality of unlimited resources. - Original Message - From: "Craig" To: Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 12:18 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month > On 10/21/2013 12:51 PM, H Veeder wrote: >> >> Instead of being a cas

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

Craig wrote: > > The Constitution. And common law. I mean that. > > So your ancestors got together and decided they had this authority? This > is an argument for authority -- from authority. > Exactly right! You have hit the nail on the head. This is how all government works, and all other soci

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

Craig wrote: > If you go to India or China, you will find a culture which does not > believe in the protection of individual rights and/or property rights. > I have been to these places and I know about China. I spent a semester in college learning Chinese history, anthropology, literature and

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

On 10/21/2013 05:23 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Craig mailto:cchayniepub...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > Oh course I know you disagree. But by what authority can you and your > associates decide the rules that I am to follow, when I can't > decide the > rules that you should follow? > >

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

On 10/21/2013 05:18 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > In India and China, poor people defecate in the streets and streams. > That is what people did in New York City in 1900, which is why they > had typhus and other diseases, just as they do today in the third > world. That is how we will live if we le

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

Craig wrote: > Oh course I know you disagree. But by what authority can you and your > associates decide the rules that I am to follow, when I can't decide the > rules that you should follow? The Constitution. And common law. I mean that. > A universal moral code, which applies to > everyon

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

This is getting off topic but . . . I wrote: > It is a fact that you cannot build a house in Georgia or Pennsylvania > without electricity and a flush-toilet. That's enforced by law, which I > suppose in some sense means it is backed by violence. For that matter, so > is a library fine. In actual

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

On 10/21/2013 04:54 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > I get what you are saying, but you should recognize that I disagree, > and nearly everyone else disagrees. We say that "taxes are the price > we pay for civilization" (Holmes). The fact that taxes and all other > laws are backed by the implicit use of

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

one thing for some who say this initiative is printing money.. it is linked to taxes... typically flat tax, or legacy tax, the only taxes that are not toxic for the economy. another way to do the sale could be like waht is donne in poor countries with agriarian reforms, it is to give a share of ca

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

Craig wrote: Yes, I'm referring to the law. The law is backed by violence and threats > of violence. Library fines are agreed upon when a person signs up for > the library; but it's not valid to take a large geographic area and > claim the authority to control the actions of all the people within

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

On 10/21/2013 03:59 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Craig mailto:cchayniepub...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > Who wants to slow down technology? I want to stop the subjugation of > people through threats of violence. > > > You seem obsessed by this notion. No one threatens you today with > violence

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

The Japanese situation is merely a variant on the same theme: Young men can't afford to form a family and society disintegrates starting with the bedrock of society in all sexual species : "Both men and women say

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

Oh, I almost forgot, there is one more stage to this: Since the banks don't have anything profitable to invest in, they instead invest in buy public policy think tanks (including economists who will furiously "scratch their heads at the puzzling state of affairs" missing the 800lb gorilla in the r

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

James Bowery wrote: > Debtors declare bankruptcy. The banks use the money to buy up the > bankruptcy-liquidated assets. The banks now own a greater percentage of > the total asset base but it does them no good because there is no demand to > put them to use. > This has not been happening in J

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

Craig wrote: > Who wants to slow down technology? I want to stop the subjugation of > people through threats of violence. You seem obsessed by this notion. No one threatens you today with violence if you do not use electricity in your house. It is a fact that you cannot build a house in Georgi

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

The explanation for this is quite simple actually: If they had distributed the new money to the citizens as unconditional basic income rather than the banks, they'd solve the "liquidity crisis" while at the same time indirectly supporting the debt instruments held by the banks -- thus obviating th

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

On 10/21/2013 03:00 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > This is a technological imperative. It is the only way we will be able > to live when robots and computers make human labor worthless. You > cannot opt out of the world as it is shaped by technology. Today you > cannot live without automobiles, electr

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

Chris Zell wrote: But this money printing (or the creation of monetary reserves) does not > produce inflation automatically. After living thru the '70's, this came as > a shock to me. It still looks very weird for Japan trying to trigger > inflation and finding it more difficult than they though

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

Blaze Spinnaker wrote: Maybe folks should be worrying about extreme poverty (1.25 / day or ~$40 a > month) before they worry about 2800 a month. > > > http://www.brookings.edu/research/interactives/2013/ending-extreme-poverty#poverty_scenarios > > We can do both. First world problems need to be s

RE: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

But this money printing (or the creation of monetary reserves) does not produce inflation automatically. After living thru the '70's, this came as a shock to me. It still looks very weird for Japan trying to trigger inflation and finding it more difficult than they thought. Productivity ente

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

ssage - From: "Craig" To: Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 12:18 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month On 10/21/2013 12:51 PM, H Veeder wrote: Instead of being a cash transfer, basic income would work like a decentralized mint, where in

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

Craig wrote: > Group A wants everyone to pitch in and provide a basic income for people. > > Group B doesn't believe in this method and wants to opt out. > > Now if we follow the plan proposed by Group B, then everyone can get > what they want. . . . This is a technological imperative. It is t

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

The paleo-libertarian (eg Lysander Spooner) derivation of the unconditional basic income and its financing is very much the way Swiss society is already organized in that its military consists of its able bodied men who keep in t

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

On 10/21/2013 12:51 PM, H Veeder wrote: > > Instead of being a cash transfer, basic income would work like a > decentralized mint, where individuals would be ascribed the power of > limited legal tender creation. > > harry > Printing money is no different than if every person had a tax placed on

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

Correct, in essence I mean mint it. We have been trying to re-inflate since 2008. - Original Message - From: H Veeder To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month On Mon

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 10:39 AM, Randy wuller wrote: > And by the way just print it, don't tax for it. Inflation only occurs if > money chases a limited supply. > I agree, but the phrase "printnit" has come to mean when governments incur debt by borrowing money from central banks, but what

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

ogical thing holding this back right now is Energy, and if > this site is correct and LENR will arrive soon, the last barrier to > unlimited wealth for all society will be removed. We simply have to > understand that we are all worth it. > > Ransom > > - Original Message

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

logical thing holding this back right now is Energy, and if > this site is correct and LENR will arrive soon, the last barrier to > unlimited wealth for all society will be removed. We simply have to > understand that we are all worth it. > > Ransom > > ----- Origina

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

o.com Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 3:46 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month American Winter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJJR3lG72AA .s -- Date: Sun, 20 Oct 201

RE: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

American Winter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJJR3lG72AA .s Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2013 21:23:14 -0700 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month From: blaze... To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Maybe folks should be worrying about extreme poverty (1.25 / day or ~$40 a

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

for me , as it happen often minimal income go with flat tax, which it dampen. Some people would agree to pay their slightly bigger share of taxes (maybe not bigger in fact that is the trick) to : - stop thinking about taxes, and thinking about business - stop wasting public money to check is poor

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

When money is given freely in unlimited supplies inflation is going to result. If that money is tied to a gold standard inflation can be prevented, but then the governments would not be able to eliminate their debts by harnessing inflation. Some method will need to be found in the future that

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

Maybe folks should be worrying about extreme poverty (1.25 / day or ~$40 a month) before they worry about 2800 a month. http://www.brookings.edu/research/interactives/2013/ending-extreme-poverty#poverty_scenarios On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 7:31 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Switzerland is consideri

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

Geographic continuity of the experiments in human ecology is necessary. It is, therefore, essential that support for such geographic continuity be built into the laws of the land. This can't happen without violating treasured notions of "property rights" -- specifically in land holdings. Some fo

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

On 10/20/2013 10:55 PM, Blaze Spinnaker wrote: > " It means there is less disposable income in circulation. " > > Yes, which is why a negative income tax rate probably makes sense. > However, you still have to work for it. > But the whole idea behind using coercion and threats of violence to a

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

I should point out that when I say Ron Paul was the least of the evils in those elections, I was referring specifically to the rent-seeking in both the private (Republican) and public (Democrat) sectors. The libertarians are private sector rent-seekers but at least they don't believe in using the

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

I've been involved with the Ron Paul for President campaigns during the last two presidential elections -- supporting him as, by far, the least of the evils running for President. He's an ardent Austrian School Economics ideologue. He's _way_ down on the list of indictments. He, and his supporte

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 7:55 PM, Blaze Spinnaker wrote: " It means there is less disposable income in circulation. " > > Yes, which is why a negative income tax rate probably makes sense. > However, you still have to work for it. > Honestly, I have no strong opinion on this last point. I say, pu

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

" It means there is less disposable income in circulation. " Yes, which is why a negative income tax rate probably makes sense. However, you still have to work for it. On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 7:39 PM, Eric Walker wrote: > On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 7:23 PM, Blaze Spinnaker > wrote: > > There are

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 7:23 PM, Blaze Spinnaker wrote: There are levels of socialism which increasingly make more sense. > When people talk about "socialism," there's a huge spectrum of possibilities concerning what is intended. One one side you have the old style authoritarianism that was Sovi

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

"But... why can't we let people who want to live in this type of system opt-in; while those who don't, opt-out? The reason is because those who want this system don't want to support it themselves, but rather, they want the money of others, richer than themselves, to support it." Lol!! Gimme a br

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

On 10/20/2013 07:05 PM, James Bowery wrote: > Oh, and by the way, until there are the equivalent of The Nuremberg > Trials to hang the perpetrators of the economically-driven de facto > genocide against the people of the United States that has occurred > over the last generation, all political move

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

Oh, and by the way, until there are the equivalent of The Nuremberg Trials to hang the perpetrators of the economically-driven de facto genocide against the people of the United States that has occurred over the last generation, all political movements based on the Austrian School of Economics and

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

You're basically touting the Austrian School of Economics "axiom" of "non-aggression". That "axiom" is utter nonsense. It is Utopian moralization. Here is a valid axiom: A young man, in a state of nature, deprived of even the land on which to plant a garden and build a house within which to for

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

On 10/19/2013 11:09 AM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: > > > > Communism, I tell you! Pure, unadulterated communism! Or maybe it's > socialism. Yeah, that's what it is. No, wait! It's socialistic > communism. Yeah that's the ticket. It's pure concentrated evil, > whatever it is! We ca

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

sorry wrong link http://jacobinmag.com/2013/05/curious-utopias/ Harry On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 4:43 PM, H Veeder wrote: > Curious Utopias > http://mondediplo.com/2013/05/04income > > This article consider the criticisms that basic income either too utopianor > not > utopian enough. > It also

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

Curious Utopias http://mondediplo.com/2013/05/04income This article consider the criticisms that basic income either too utopianor not utopian enough. It also has some good links with more information on the experiments I posted below. Harry On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 1:33 AM, H Veeder wrote: >

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Jones Beene wrote: > Actually there are probably a few of us here on Vortex who would personally > volunteer for this … well, in a few years, Porgie. Porgy and Mudhead in High School Madness from Don't Crush the Dwarf Hand Me the Pliers by The Firesign Theater

RE: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

Think Kurzweil … or else think Firesign Theater :-) From: Eric Walker In macroeconomic terms, I worry about two trends in the US -- the growing number of aging people who do not have provisions in place for retirement… These trends lead me to think that the US may

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

2013/10/20 Jed Rothwell > some good insight as usual 8) note that the key to unconditional income, is that IT IS NOT A MINIMUM INCOME... in france we have a minimum income, which is canceled when you earn your life... it is demotivating, even for courageous people who compute that working make t

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 10:28 PM, James Bowery wrote: This has resulted in such an enormous demographic collapse in the US -- 10s > of millions children foregone for financial reasons ... You just can't do > this kind of thing to a nation and believe you're going to get away scott > free. Someth

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

Experiments in basic income. Dauphin, Canada 1974-79 (The results were analysed only recently) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincome Villages India (began 2011) with control groups. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtYtwiG-uAM&feature=youtu.be Village in Nambia (Jan. 2008- Dec. 2009) http://www.bi

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

It sounds like a lot of you seriously need to carefully watch Elizabeth Warren's "The Coming Collapse of the Middle Class" and consider the consequences of her very well researched numbers. Basically, her numbers state th

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

That would gut the essence of the unconditional basic income: Placing responsibility for social goods back in the hands of the social networks surrounding problem cases. The point is this: It is not only you who is getting this and not only the "needy" but everyone -- which means that everyone k

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

OK, I was a bit harsh with the sarcasm there but seriously think about this: First of all, the Swiss are doing this by referendum. That means its about as close to a consenting experiment in the social sciences as you can get. It is supremacist for the government to test is social theories on un

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

Yes its very important that no experiments be conducted in the social sciences anywhere in the world that might contradict your theories. On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 6:29 PM, Blaze Spinnaker wrote: > Yeah, I really don't think it'll work. I think a better idea is just to > cut taxes for the poor /

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

Blaze Spinnaker wrote: > But, work they must. Or starve. > I believe you are missing the point. It used to be true that we must either work or starve. Nowadays something like 20% of us do not need to work -- taking into account children, retirees and the unemployed. We don't starve because mac

RE: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

Blaze sez: > They should do an experiment. Randomly select 100 kids in high school > and tell them that they'll get paid a min income for the rest of their life. > > Find out where they are in 4 years versus a control group An interesting suggestion, Blaze. Actually, we can perform

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

Yeah, I really don't think it'll work. I think a better idea is just to cut taxes for the poor / middle class. Perhaps even a negative tax rate would be a good idea, so they get paid money extra when they work. But, work they must. Or starve.

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

Blaze Spinnaker wrote: They should do an experiment. Randomly select 100 kids in high school and > tell them that they'll get paid a min income for the rest of their life. > . > Find out where they are in 4 years versus a control group > This experiment has been done millions of times throughou

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

They should do an experiment. Randomly select 100 kids in high school and tell them that they'll get paid a min income for the rest of their life. . Find out where they are in 4 years versus a control group On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 7:31 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Switzerland is considering givin

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

Alain Sepeda, I thought you made some very good points. I have been going on about the coming high permanent unemployment rate that is inevitable with more automation and better computers, for some time. This is probably the most efficient answer to that problem. I particularly like the idea

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

what is funny and interesting is that this movent is pushed... you can be surprised, but the more "libertarianist" (in france we call them liberal, this mean like republican... not like communist). the idea is based on many observation. the fact that tax increase with income is demotivating some p

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

This is going to strip away layers of rhetorical fog and start to expose the essential issues in political economy in such a way as to bring immigration into rational economic perspective -- although the deeper issues of cultural heritage are still largely obscured. For that reason alone, every rh

Re: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

There is also European movement to petition the European parliament to study and introduce a basic income: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zru79jcVTt4 On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Switzerland is considering giving every citizen $2,800 a month gratis, > with no strings

RE: [Vo]:Switzerland considers giving every citizen $2,800 a month

Jed sez: > Switzerland is considering giving every citizen $2,800 a month gratis, with no strings attached. > We have discussed this idea here from time to time. See: > http://www.slate.com/blogs/business_insider/2013/10/19/swiss_government_give away_2_800_a_month_for_all_citizens.html