Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

> Fred Bauder wrote: >> It is likely the reason he got into trouble was because he wasn't >> confident that others would back him up, so he did it himself. Which >> is, >> of course, the third rail. What is missing is the knowledge that >> sometimes, even if you are "right", others will not, for on

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

Fred Bauder wrote: > It is likely the reason he got into trouble was because he wasn't > confident that others would back him up, so he did it himself. Which is, > of course, the third rail. What is missing is the knowledge that > sometimes, even if you are "right", others will not, for one reason

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

Jon Q wrote: > The site sounds so wonderful as you enter -- "Come on in! Start writing! > Be bold! Break the rules!" and you're heartened by the seeming generosity > of spirit. Until you actually encounter some experienced editors. The > problem here then becomes something I've seen over and aga

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

xperienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge? Frankly, I see that as unwarranted pessimism. The sets of people who want to change things and people who want to cause trouble are not identical, though there is a substantial intersection. Admins who have the lack of judgement to try

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

Hello all, New here; first post. I'm a longtime Wikipedia user and recent first-time editor. Had a rather discouraging incident with regard to my first article on the site, rather an eye-opener as I've attempted to study up on how things work -- or are supposed to work, and finding out that the lo

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Fred Bauder wrote: > > >> > >> Yes, we need to address the problems, not blame the victims and help > >> them > >> cope with nightmares. > >> > >> Fred > >> > > What do you propose? > > > > Personally, what I'm going to do is participate more on noticeboards. > Ad

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

>> >> Yes, we need to address the problems, not blame the victims and help >> them >> cope with nightmares. >> >> Fred >> > What do you propose? > Personally, what I'm going to do is participate more on noticeboards. Adapting that to a general solution would involve experienced administrators pay

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 1:04 PM, Fred Bauder wrote: > > > > > The other side of that coin is that when there are systemic problems that > > necessarily reduce in stress or even abusive treatment of administrators, > > you ought to be identifying and correcting that. Right now, you have > > exactl

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

> > The other side of that coin is that when there are systemic problems that > necessarily reduce in stress or even abusive treatment of administrators, > you ought to be identifying and correcting that. Right now, you have > exactly > such a situation. Working toward identifying and correcting w

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 2:15 AM, Fred Bauder wrote: > Fred > > > > I failed my first try, and could have failed my second if I hadn't > > made a serious effort to ameliorate a negative perception from taking > > a stand earlier. > > > > The edge of the knife that we must balance on is both being

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

Fred > > I failed my first try, and could have failed my second if I hadn't > made a serious effort to ameliorate a negative perception from taking > a stand earlier. > > The edge of the knife that we must balance on is both being willing to > take stands, and be open to feedback from the communit

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

Ryan Delaney wrote: > Somehow this thread became about RFA standards. What happened? > > True. We seem to be missing the point that the trouble with the Administrators Noticeboard is at least in part that it is a "noticeboard", i.e. not a process for which there is a charter, but an uncharter

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 8:32 PM, George Herbert wrote: > On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 7:58 PM, Fred Bauder > wrote: > >> On 14 July 2010 02:07, FT2 wrote: > >>> The expectations upon admins are the pivot point for that. See [[ > >>> User:FT2/RfA ]]. > >>> >

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 7:58 PM, Fred Bauder wrote: >> On 14 July 2010 02:07, FT2 wrote: >>> The expectations upon admins are the pivot point for that. See [[ >>> User:FT2/RfA ]]. >>> >>> Any ideas how we can get somewhere like that? >>> >>> FT2 >>> >> >

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

> On 14 July 2010 02:07, FT2 wrote: >> The expectations upon admins are the pivot point for that. See [[ >> User:FT2/RfA ]]. >> >> Any ideas how we can get somewhere like that? >> >> FT2 >> > > Well to start with you could chuck your requirements out of t

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

Frankly, I see that as unwarranted pessimism. The sets of people who want to change things and people who want to cause trouble are not identical, though there is a substantial intersection. Admins who have the lack of judgement to try to force their desired change into policy by using their arbitr

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

On 14 July 2010 02:07, FT2 wrote: > The expectations upon admins are the pivot point for that. See [[ > User:FT2/RfA ]]. > > Any ideas how we can get somewhere like that? > > FT2 > Well to start with you could chuck your requirements out of the window. Y

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

The expectations upon admins are the pivot point for that. See [[ User:FT2/RfA ]]. Any ideas how we can get somewhere like that? FT2 On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 11:55 PM, Ryan Delaney wrote: > So to speak more generally, what I'm trying to draw your att

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 9:14 AM, Carcharoth wrote: > On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 4:50 PM, Ryan Delaney > wrote: > > > I don't think this can be regarded as any kind of permanent solution. > > Walking away would have done nothing in my case because I was the one > being > > hounded. > > I'm actually n

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 4:50 PM, Ryan Delaney wrote: > I don't think this can be regarded as any kind of permanent solution. > Walking away would have done nothing in my case because I was the one being > hounded. I'm actually not familiar with what happened in your case, but I did include the c

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 12:25 AM, Carcharoth wrote: > On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 7:48 AM, George Herbert > wrote: > > > > > I have had to walk away from recent changes repeatedly. > > Picking up on the "walking away" bit. > > There are, of course, those who find themselves *unable* to walk away. >

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 7:48 AM, George Herbert wrote: > I have had to walk away from recent changes repeatedly. Picking up on the "walking away" bit. There are, of course, those who find themselves *unable* to walk away. Either because they are deeply involved, or because they find themselve

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 11:33 PM, Carcharoth wrote: > On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 2:51 AM, Ian Woollard wrote: >> I'm pretty sure that the main solution to this is to make the wiki >> experience better, not trying to specifically treat people that are >> getting frustrated's experience better. > > I

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 2:51 AM, Ian Woollard wrote: > I'm pretty sure that the main solution to this is to make the wiki > experience better, not trying to specifically treat people that are > getting frustrated's experience better. I agree. It works both ways. New editors, who may not fully und

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

I'm pretty sure that the main solution to this is to make the wiki experience better, not trying to specifically treat people that are getting frustrated's experience better. -- -Ian Woollard ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To un

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 12:29 PM, George Herbert wrote: > Admin Rodhullandemu just retired after being blocked for blocking > Malleus Fautorum to win a dispute > > For reference: > > https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Block_review > > On and off wi

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 1:38 PM, Marc Riddell wrote: > Many, if not most, companies, major non-profit organizations and virtually > all government agencies have a Human Resources department... > Would this be a possibility for the Wikipedia Project? _

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

on 7/11/10 3:29 PM, George Herbert at george.herb...@gmail.com wrote: > Admin Rodhullandemu just retired after being blocked for blocking > Malleus Fautorum to win a dispute > > For reference: > https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_notic > eboard#Block_review >

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

This particular situation is now the subject of a pending request for arbitration, so I'll comment on that on-wiki (probably in the morning), but my comments there may have some relevance to the broader issue being raised here. Newyorkbrad On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 8:50 PM, David Goodman wrote: >

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

Yes, AN / ANI is part of the problem. The formal procedures of arb com and the consideration by a small group of highly selected very experienced people who devote almost their full wiki-time to it, result after weeks or months of discussion at the most in desysop, a one year block, and a topic b

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

It is likely the reason he got into trouble was because he wasn't confident that others would back him up, so he did it himself. Which is, of course, the third rail. What is missing is the knowledge that sometimes, even if you are "right", others will not, for one reason or another, not back you up

Re: [WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

George Herbert wrote: > Admin Rodhullandemu just retired after being blocked for blocking > Malleus Fautorum to win a dispute > > For reference: > > https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Block_review > > On and off wiki I have mentioned before that

[WikiEN-l] Admin / experienced user flameout - how do we talk people down off the ledge?

Admin Rodhullandemu just retired after being blocked for blocking Malleus Fautorum to win a dispute For reference: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Block_review On and off wiki I have mentioned before that we are really bad, as a project, at