Re: [Xen-devel] [qubes-devel] Re: Critique of the Xen Security Process

2015-11-11 Thread chris
This is true but I can see her point of view as someone with a product that is based on the open source core. There have been a lot of very drastic changes that would cause someone with a product to have to do a significant amount of re-engineering. Also how many different toolstacks have their bee

Re: [Xen-devel] [qubes-devel] Re: Critique of the Xen Security Process

2015-11-11 Thread Lars Kurth
> On 11 Nov 2015, at 11:36, Chris Laprise wrote: > > Hello... > > On 11/10/2015 05:52 AM, Lars Kurth wrote: >> Hi everyone, >> >> firstly I wanted to thank everyone for raising this issue. I wanted to point >> out that we are not talking about a security process here, but the >> development

Re: [Xen-devel] [qubes-devel] Re: Critique of the Xen Security Process

2015-11-11 Thread Chris Laprise
Hello... On 11/10/2015 05:52 AM, Lars Kurth wrote: Hi everyone, firstly I wanted to thank everyone for raising this issue. I wanted to point out that we are not talking about a security process here, but the development process. Or more accurately the cost of writing more secure code and the

Re: [Xen-devel] [qubes-devel] Re: Critique of the Xen Security Process

2015-11-10 Thread Franz
On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 1:09 PM, Lars Kurth wrote: > > > On 9 Nov 2015, at 18:15, Wojtek Porczyk > wrote: > > > > On Mon, Nov 09, 2015 at 04:31:58PM +, Franz wrote: > >> Perhaps a way out of this impasse is to put bounties on Xen security > tasks > >> identified by Joanna and properly advert

Re: [Xen-devel] [qubes-devel] Re: Critique of the Xen Security Process

2015-11-10 Thread Lars Kurth
> On 9 Nov 2015, at 18:15, Wojtek Porczyk wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 09, 2015 at 04:31:58PM +, Franz wrote: >> Perhaps a way out of this impasse is to put bounties on Xen security tasks >> identified by Joanna and properly advertise these bounties to Xen users. >> [snip] > > This is fundamental

Re: [Xen-devel] [qubes-devel] Re: Critique of the Xen Security Process

2015-11-10 Thread Lars Kurth
Hi everyone, firstly I wanted to thank everyone for raising this issue. I wanted to point out that we are not talking about a security process here, but the development process. Or more accurately the cost of writing more secure code and the relative importance of security compared to features

Re: [Xen-devel] [qubes-devel] Re: Critique of the Xen Security Process

2015-11-09 Thread Radoslaw Szkodzinski
As usual. Security, performance, convenience, price. Pick any mixture. As is usual for most software, developer convenience trumps most other considerations. I include ease of generating nice papers and jobs under developer convenience. Big players are much more concerned about performance, which

Re: [Xen-devel] [qubes-devel] Re: Critique of the Xen Security Process

2015-11-09 Thread Wojtek Porczyk
On Mon, Nov 09, 2015 at 04:31:58PM +, Franz wrote: > Perhaps a way out of this impasse is to put bounties on Xen security tasks > identified by Joanna and properly advertise these bounties to Xen users. > [snip] This is fundamentaly wrong idea. Security isn't something you can "apply" or put b

Re: [Xen-devel] [qubes-devel] Re: Critique of the Xen Security Process

2015-11-09 Thread Franz
On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Jan Beulich wrote: > >>> On 06.11.15 at 18:22, wrote: > > 1. First of all, I wish Xen was somehow more defensively coded. To > provide > > some > > examples: > > > > a. In XSA-109 [5] there was a problem with the hypervisor dereferencing a > > NULL > > pointer. T