Hi Everybody,
Slow down a bit. Sorry if I sound high headed here!
There seems to be a misunderstanding what exactly a
PLAIN TEXT FILE is.
Computing has evolved since I started using computers.
When I started out a plain text file was a file just holding
7-bit ASCII or EBCDIC, or the like witho
Keith J. Schultz wrote:
So, Unicode needs an editor to be displayed correctly.
Why ? Not meant to sound aggressive, but seems a very
odd assertion, IMHO. Editors are for changing things;
why would you need a program intended to change things
just to display Unicode ?
Now, for the youngste
2011/11/14 Philip TAYLOR :
>
>
> Keith J. Schultz wrote:
>
>> So, Unicode needs an editor to be displayed correctly.
>
> Why ? Not meant to sound aggressive, but seems a very
> odd assertion, IMHO. Editors are for changing things;
> why would you need a program intended to change things
> just to
Am 14.11.2011 um 09:21 schrieb Keith J. Schultz:
> So, Unicode needs an editor to be displayed correctly.
Use GNU Emacs!
--
Greetings
Pete
Hard Disk, n.:
A device that allows users to delete vast quantities of data with
simple mnemonic commands.
2011/11/14 Peter Dyballa :
>
> Am 14.11.2011 um 09:21 schrieb Keith J. Schultz:
>
>> So, Unicode needs an editor to be displayed correctly.
>
> Use GNU Emacs!
>
Does it display Devanagari, Arabic, Tibetan, Hebrew correctly?
> --
> Greetings
>
> Pete
>
> Hard Disk, n.:
> A device that allow
My $0.02
In general, I think we are going to get the most mileage by sticking
with the TeX way of doing things by default. The nice thing is that ~
can be turned into a non-active character, and one can set other
things if they want. For the record, I think that having non-breaking
spaces in a p
On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 06:25:08PM +0200, Tobias Schoel wrote:
>
>
> Am 13.11.2011 18:16, schrieb Philip TAYLOR:
> >
> >
> >Tobias Schoel wrote:
> >
> >>One opinion says, that using (La)TeX is programming. Consequently, each
> >>character used should be visually well distinguishable. This is not
On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 2:24 AM, Petr Tomasek wrote:
> Using different color.
>
Do we really want to tie XeTeX users to a small number of editors?
Chris Travers
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Chris Travers wrote:
On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 2:24 AM, Petr Tomasek wrote:
Using different color.
Do we really want to tie XeTeX users to a small number of editors?
No. But nor do we want to preclude the possibility of
someone taking UTF-8 containing these "magic" characters
from somewhe
2011/11/14 Petr Tomasek :
> On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 06:25:08PM +0200, Tobias Schoel wrote:
>>
>>
>> Am 13.11.2011 18:16, schrieb Philip TAYLOR:
>> >
>> >
>> >Tobias Schoel wrote:
>> >
>> >>One opinion says, that using (La)TeX is programming. Consequently, each
>> >>character used should be visually
On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 2:35 AM, Philip TAYLOR wrote:
>
>
> Chris Travers wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 2:24 AM, Petr Tomasek wrote:
>>
>>> Using different color.
>>>
>> Do we really want to tie XeTeX users to a small number of editors?
>
> No. But nor do we want to preclude the possibili
One other thought occurs to me.
Typically in a TeX document, whitespace is not semantic. In other
words, spaces, tabs, and carriage returns are not differentiated. If
we are so keen on supporting a few special whitespace characters, why
not also support tabs and make carriage returns, you know,
Am 14.11.2011 um 11:16 schrieb Zdenek Wagner:
> Does it display Devanagari, Arabic, Tibetan, Hebrew correctly?
LTR can be improved (it's maintained by a guy who probably, judging by his
name, can write and read Hebrew), shaping is handled by libotf and libm17n. It
can also be improved. But the
Chris Travers wrote:
One other thought occurs to me.
Typically in a TeX document, whitespace is not semantic. In other
words, spaces, tabs, and carriage returns are not differentiated. If
we are so keen on supporting a few special whitespace characters, why
not also support tabs and make car
Hi Phillip,
Am 14.11.2011 um 09:36 schrieb Philip TAYLOR:
>
>
> Keith J. Schultz wrote:
>
>> So, Unicode needs an editor to be displayed correctly.
>
> Why ? Not meant to sound aggressive, but seems a very
> odd assertion, IMHO. Editors are for changing things;
> why would you need a progra
On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 2:54 AM, Peter Dyballa wrote:
>
> Am 14.11.2011 um 11:16 schrieb Zdenek Wagner:
>
>> Does it display Devanagari, Arabic, Tibetan, Hebrew correctly?
>
> LTR can be improved (it's maintained by a guy who probably, judging by his
> name, can write and read Hebrew), shaping is
On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 2:56 AM, Philip TAYLOR wrote:
>
>
> Chris Travers wrote:
>>
>> One other thought occurs to me.
>>
>> Typically in a TeX document, whitespace is not semantic. In other
>> words, spaces, tabs, and carriage returns are not differentiated. If
>> we are so keen on supporting a
Keith J. Schultz wrote:
Hi Phillip,
Am 14.11.2011 um 09:36 schrieb Philip TAYLOR:
Keith J. Schultz wrote:
So, Unicode needs an editor to be displayed correctly.
Why ? Not meant to sound aggressive, but seems a very
odd assertion, IMHO. Editors are for changing things;
why would you n
Hi Peter,
Simple answer No do not use the emacs editor, hate it!
I have not look at emacs in a very long time, but I assume
that it does not understand unicode, along with other text encodings.
But, you can edit TeX, HTML, and XML with it!
Please see my r
Chris Travers wrote:
Ok, so why don't we have a similar macro here? Something like:
\obeynbsps
See above : there are /some/ things that TeX does that
transcend category codes (which are the basis for \obeylines);
in particular [1] :
"$$ TeX deletes any characters (number 32)" that occur
On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 3:26 AM, Philip TAYLOR wrote:
>
>
> Chris Travers wrote:
>
>> Ok, so why don't we have a similar macro here? Something like:
>> \obeynbsps
>
> See above : there are /some/ things that TeX does that
> transcend category codes (which are the basis for \obeylines);
> in parti
Hi Zdenek, all,
I was to lazy to list all those encodings.
I will be more precise know for those not reading carefully.
There is a difference between what is considered plain text in the
computer
world and what its content is.
Basically, plain te
Chris Travers wrote:
But what's the point of putting non-breaking spaces between a word and
the end of a line? or for that matter what if I alternate spaces and
special unicode spaces? Do I get a word space for each of them?
In (e.g.,) HTML, it is by no means unusual to interweave
spaces an
Hi there,
Am 14.11.2011 um 11:20 schrieb Chris Travers:
> My $0.02
>
> In general, I think we are going to get the most mileage by sticking
> with the TeX way of doing things by default. The nice thing is that ~
> can be turned into a non-active character, and one can set other
> thing
Well, XeTeX users are already restricted in their choice of editors. The
must/should support
minimalistically unicode. Of course you can enter the characters/glyphs in a
cryptic manner.
Have fun reading a text with true unicode!
Also, remember when you had to use ALT-XXX for entering characters
Well, Zdenek,
I guess that is where TeXWorks comes to mind. It could give a unified
GUI for TeX with unicode.
regards
Keith.
Am 14.11.2011 um 11:38 schrieb Zdenek Wagner:
> You live in a perfect world where you can do everything with a single
> editor using nice GUI. The world is not y
Hi Chris,
I agree with you that one should be able to see the differences in an editor,
but this feature should be feature to turn off and on.
The question is what is an ordinary editor.
Also, most prefer to use their pet editors.
regards
Keith.
> I get worried when reserved character
On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 4:47 AM, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
> Hi Chris,
>
> I agree with you that one should be able to see the differences in an editor,
> but this feature should be feature to turn off and on.
Absolutely. If it requires an on switch to take effect, I have no complaints.
>
> The qu
On Mon, 14 Nov 2011, Petr Tomasek wrote:
> > Not in every case. How would you visually differentiate between all the
> > white space characters (space vs. non-break space, thin space (u2009)
> Using different color.
About 8% of men have some form of colour blindness (the prevalance is much
lower,
Hi Humpty Dumpty,
Go read the standards and cry without kissing the girls.
Evidently, you are trained in computer science or you would
know what a real plain text file is.
Also, in computer science we do not use the definitions of lay persons nor
common language use.
I assume you know all ab
>> Now, for the youngsters XML, TeX, HTML are per definition plain text
files.
>
> No, they are text files, not /plain/ text files. Look
> at some mime types :
>
> text/plain (for plain text)
> text/html (for HTML)
It depends on who is reading them. Their markup is markup only fron th
When you are willing to come back to a serious discussion we talk.
I am participating in a serious discussion, Keith,
but I am more than happy to ignore your own inane
babble if it will make you any happier.
Philip Taylor
Keith J Schultz wrote :
Hi Humpty Dumpty,
Go read the sta
Karljurgen Feuerherm wrote:
It depends on who is reading them. Their markup is markup only fron the
point of view of their interpreters, i.e. *TeX, etc. From the point of
view of something else, they are plain.
Yes, the Universe of Discourse (and/or the pragmatics
of discourse) do have a inp
Am Mon, 14 Nov 2011 04:05:58 -0800 schrieb Chris Travers:
> I think one of the key strengths of TeX is that it can be edited
> gracefully by ANY basic text editor. I would hate for that to be
> lost.
Well already pdflatex can handle utf8-documents which contains cjk
or greek which are quite diff
On Nov 14, 2011, at 7:11 AM, Philip TAYLOR wrote:
>
>
> Karljurgen Feuerherm wrote:
>
>> It depends on who is reading them. Their markup is markup only fron the
>> point of view of their interpreters, i.e. *TeX, etc. From the point of
>> view of something else, they are plain.
>
> Yes, the Un
2011/11/14 Keith J. Schultz :
> Well, Zdenek,
>
> I guess that is where TeXWorks comes to mind. It could give a unified
> GUI for TeX with unicode.
>
Does it mean I will be forced to use TeXWorks and nothing else? And
will it work over telnet or ssh without graphics? I have other unicode
capable ed
Hi Herbert,
You are absolutely right in your assessment. True plain text files are/where
traditionally 7-bits.
Though, I have to tell you that nowadays even 8-bit files are considered plain
text.
The verdict is still out in how far unicode text files are plain text files, as
unicode is well u
Hi Zdenek,
I am suggesting that one be forced to use any particular editor.
But, if we want a unified/consistent editor across all platforms,
I would consider TeXWorks as a viable candidate as it is already cross platform.
It should be easy enough to add a feature that could make the different fo
2011/11/14 Keith J. Schultz :
> Hi Zdenek,
>
> I am suggesting that one be forced to use any particular editor.
>
> But, if we want a unified/consistent editor across all platforms,
No, I need unified graphical representation accross editors. One of my
customers was Czech National Bank. Due to sec
I think this discussion is bogging down because several different
questions are getting mixed together. Here's what I see as the major
issues:
1. Does Unicode specify a single correct way of representing white space?
2. If an input file to XeTeX contains currently less common Unicode
whitespace
msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca wrote:
> 2. Inevitably, people will include invalid characters in TeX input; and
> U+00A0 is an invalid character for TeX input.
Firstly (as is clear from the list on which we are discussing
this), we are not discussing TeX but XeTeX. Secondly, even
if we were discu
2011/11/14 Philip TAYLOR :
>
>
> msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca wrote:
>
> followed by>
>
>> 2. Inevitably, people will include invalid characters in TeX input; and
>> U+00A0 is an invalid character for TeX input.
>
> Firstly (as is clear from the list on which we are discussing
> this), we are not disc
On Mon, 14 Nov 2011, Philip TAYLOR wrote:
> > 2. Inevitably, people will include invalid characters in TeX input; and
> > U+00A0 is an invalid character for TeX input.
>
> Firstly (as is clear from the list on which we are discussing
> this), we are not discussing TeX but XeTeX. Secondly, even
Xe
msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca wrote:
XeTeX is a TeX engine. Obviously, it is free to define its own input
format, and that format already differs from other TeX engines by (for
instance) allowing some Unicode code points outside the 7-bit range.
I think (with respect) that "some Unicode code poi
On Mon, 14 Nov 2011, Philip TAYLOR wrote:
> I think (with respect) that "some Unicode code points outside the 7-bit range"
> is a gross understatement. As far as I am aware, XeTeX permits a very
> considerable
> subset of Unicode (perhaps even all of it; I do not know) as input.
My point is that
Am 14.11.2011 18:30, schrieb msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca:
1. No. That is not what Unicode is for. Unicode's goal is to subsume
all reasonable pre-existing encodings.
Unicode is even more. Look at all the Annexes to Unicode 6.0
Some reasonable pre-existing
encodings include a non-breaking sp
msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca wrote:
On Mon, 14 Nov 2011, Philip TAYLOR wrote:
I think (with respect) that "some Unicode code points outside the 7-bit range"
is a gross understatement. As far as I am aware, XeTeX permits a very
considerable
subset of Unicode (perhaps even all of it; I do not know)
On 11/14/2011 5:38 AM, Zdenek Wagner wrote:
2011/11/14 Petr Tomasek:
On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 06:25:08PM +0200, Tobias Schoel wrote:
Am 13.11.2011 18:16, schrieb Philip TAYLOR:
Not in every case. How would you visually differentiate between all the
white space characters (space vs. non-break spa
>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 12:15 PM, in message
<4ec14cb5.7000...@rhul.ac.uk>,
Philip TAYLOR wrote:
>> XeTeX is a TeX engine. Obviously, it is free to define its own
input
>> format, and that format already differs from other TeX engines by
(for
>> instance) allowing some Unicode code points ou
On Mon, 14 Nov 2011, Karljurgen Feuerherm wrote:
> I use U+12000 and above regularly, as a case in point...
Do you think that basic formatting control functions should be bound to
code points in that range, as the preferred way of accessing those
functions? Let's not lose track of what this discu
I didn't say anything about U+00A0 one way or the other
Keeping in mind that the purpose of this software is to get work done,
and not to fulfil anyone's philosophical notions of software, my general
feeling is that:
* Xe(La)TeX should support plain text characters--for *my* present
purpose,
2011/11/14 Mike Maxwell :
>
> I'm going to repeat myself, or maybe if I shout I'll be heard?
>
> We are not (at least I am not) suggesting that everyone must use the Unicode
> non-breaking space character, or etc. What we *are* suggesting is that in
> Xe(La)Tex, we be *allowed* to use those chara
msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca wrote:
2. Inevitably, people will include invalid characters in TeX input; and
U+00A0 is an invalid character for TeX input.
Firstly (as is clear from the list on which we are discussing
this), we are not discussing TeX but XeTeX. Secondly, even
if we were discuss
On 11/14/2011 4:56 PM, Zdenek Wagner wrote:
2011/11/14 Mike Maxwell:
We are not (at least I am not) suggesting that everyone must use
the Unicode non-breaking space character, or etc. What we *are*
suggesting is that in Xe(La)Tex, we be *allowed* to use those
characters, and that they have thei
On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 2:43 PM, Mike Maxwell wrote:
> On 11/14/2011 4:56 PM, Zdenek Wagner wrote:
> But in fact, the last time I tried this, the NBSP character was interpreted
> in the same way as an ASCII space, which is not what I want. What I want
> (repeating myself again) is for such cha
Hi Chris, Zdenek, and others
On 15/11/2011, at 10:09 AM, Chris Travers wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 2:43 PM, Mike Maxwell wrote:
>> On 11/14/2011 4:56 PM, Zdenek Wagner wrote:
>
>
>
>> But in fact, the last time I tried this, the NBSP character was interpreted
>> in the same way as an ASC
We could also have an switch, when turned on displays the various
whitespaces using particular glyphs. MS Word does this and displays an
ordinary space with ·, a non breaking space with °, a tab with →, a line
break with ↲ and a paragraph break with ¶.
On 15 November 2011 09:13, Mike Maxwell wro
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