Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

I read a book on California geography recently, written recently, and it made the fascinating point that while the new theory of continental drift is now accepted, the opponents having died off, there are still hundreds of years of observational data that have not been interpreted according to t

[Zen] Re: Hello

Yes! Yes! Yes! These "visual images" are perception, not experience. They are part of the rational model that our mind creates. They are illusory, at least I call these mind-created perceptions illusory. They're not real anyway... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" wrote:

[Zen] Re: Hello

Yes! Yes! Yes! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "mike" wrote: > > Edgar, > > 'Suchness' needs no explanation or knowledge. It just is as it is. When > body-mind is dropped (usually by 'grace' - not by thinking about it) there is > a 'crack where the Light comes in'. In other words, when w

[Zen] Re: Hello

Yes! Yes! Yes! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "mike" wrote: > > Edgar, > > What about the satori of an illiterate peasant a thousand years ago; are you > saying he couldn't have been awakened unless he first understood "ontological > energy" and the science of the brain? If you're not, th

[Zen] Re: Hello

LIKE! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "bobthomas564" wrote: > > Hi Joe - you state "this is a model" and that is very true. There is nothing > you can say about this internal state, and as soon as you open your mouth you > are wrong. BUT. you have to say something and a model, like a para

[Zen] Re: Hello

> > On Apr 18, 2013, at 12:38 PM, William Rintala wrote: > > > > > Is this illusion of the senses akin to Kant's Ding an sich? That we can > > never know the objects of our senses but only what our senses perceive. > > > > From: Joe > > T

[Zen] Re: Hello

Bob, No need to write more at this time. What you've written below is fine. I agree with most of it although would change some of the key terms, but I definitely with the gist of it. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "bobthomas564" wrote: > > Hi Bill - To me the senses are inputs f

[Zen] Re: Hello

Edgar, But I don't want to go to Stage 4! I assume I've already been there if I'm now in Stage 3. I want to hear about Stage 2! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote: > > Bill, > > If you're a good boy I might tell you about stage 4! > :-) > > Edgar > > > > On Apr

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

Hi Joe agree with most you say. You state 'Some others who are not working in the Zen way think that we must first use everything, in order to awaken' - I have never heard of this. Everything I have read says that you should just sit in zazen and let it take it's course, then awakenment will co

[Zen] Re: Hello

Mike, Why, it's going to take ...a shift! Just as you call it. What could cause a shift, or give a push to it?: a Discovery. What could enable a discovery? An observation. What could allow an observation? A lack of prejudice. On the other hand, serendipity operates often in Science. Some

[Zen] Re: Hello

Joe, I'm not a scientist (quite obviously!), so I didn't know what kind of a state it was in. What's it going to take for the revolutionary paradigm shift that it sounds like it needs? Mike Ps It's ok not to respond if the subject upsets you. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" wrote:

[Zen] Re: Hello

Mike, The sci. method can be, and is, and has been, polluted by prejudice, and by hardening of expedient method into Doctrinal method. This always happens in Religion, if the mystical- or practice-wing of the religion does not survive, or becomes isolated or "underground" and secret. For exam

[Zen] Re: Hello

Hi, Bob, I think that Edgar, here, is advocating something like that thing you say you never heard of. It's he I had in mind when I mentioned it. You won't hear it elsewhere, I don't think. Say, no; I don't know how to send email to the group. I only use the website to read and post, never

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Apr 16, 2013 8:17 AM, "Joe" wrote: > > Chris, > > quoting: > "Recall all, to encounter the absolute is not yet awakening." > > Right. And, like the Buddha, I recommend carrying the goad that you can best wield in the circumstances. > > But, recommendations are ine

[Zen] Re: Hello

Joe, That sounds like quite a disturbing state of affairs if scientists are so bogged down in dogma and methods because they could be influenced into ways of thinking that don't come from the scientific method itself I.e, from politics, prejudices, beliefs etc. Could it be said that the scienti

[Zen] Re: Hello

Hi Joe agree with most you say. You state 'Some others who are not working in the Zen way think that we must first use everything, in order to awaken' - I have never heard of this. Everything I have read says that you should just sit in zazen and let it take it's course, then awakenment will co

[Zen] Re: Hello

Mike, I agree. Some of the Quantum Mechanics practitioners I know are some of the most dense and obtuse people. They are good in their publications, but their exorcism of belief in hard-materiality does not percolate deep, or whatsoever, into their personal life or psyche. And I think that,

[Zen] Re: Hello

Joe (well, Edgar actually), But so what (not the bit about blind people)? Quantum physicists are also very knowledgable about the transience of matter, and thus the impermanent nature of reality, but the mere knowledge of it doesn't awaken them. It has to be experienced. Mike --- In Zen_Fo

[Zen] Re: Hello

Edgar, This is why REAL Buddhists must live multiple lifetimes. I'm afraid that let's you out. ;-) --Joe > Edgar Owen wrote: > > However to completely understand how all that works and exactly how forms > reveal reality one must solve what I call the 'quantum koan' and all the > other rela

[Zen] Re: Hello

Edgar, and group, Edgar is SO right, in this bit. There is just reflected light and scattered light. Imaging, and interpretation of images, is one of our inherited gifts. Of course, blind people do not participate in visual imaging, yet they possess a "spacial" sense assembled by the other s

[Zen] Re: Hello

Edgar, Shikantaza is my practice; 34 years, since. I drop *discussion* of the koan so people here can make progress. ;-) --Joe > Edgar Owen wrote: > > You avoid the koan! Unless the koan is engaged, progress is not possible... Current Book Discussion

[Zen] Re: Hello

Edgar, 'Suchness' needs no explanation or knowledge. It just is as it is. When body-mind is dropped (usually by 'grace' - not by thinking about it) there is a 'crack where the Light comes in'. In other words, when we're "cracked open" all that remains is Suchness. No eyes, no nose, no path, no

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

Mike, He could reach the usual Zen state of mindlessness that Bill e.g. describes, but he could not really understand completely the 'true nature of things', nor I'm sure can anyone living today as the science is not complete though I'm working diligently on it. However it was common knowledge

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

 mike... you hit it on the nail...!...merle   Edgar, What about the satori of an illiterate peasant a thousand years ago; are you saying he couldn't have been awakened unless he first understood "ontological energy" and the science of the brain? If you're not, then your 'models' are just more

[Zen] Re: Hello

Edgar, What about the satori of an illiterate peasant a thousand years ago; are you saying he couldn't have been awakened unless he first understood "ontological energy" and the science of the brain? If you're not, then your 'models' are just more noise for the mind. Mike --

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

Joe, You avoid the koan! Unless the koan is engaged, progress is not possible... Edgar On Apr 18, 2013, at 5:26 PM, Joe wrote: > Edgar, > > If you work as Dogen did, and as his current disciples work, then all's right > with the world. > > To be enlightened by all things is to have no mode

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

Owen > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, April 18, 2013 12:36:18 PM > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Hello > > > William, > > > Well to start with it's simply the way the senses and the brain work. > Actually reality is nothing at all like the model of it

[Zen] Re: Hello

Bob, Yes, it's true, isn't it. I agree that models form naturally in us, and are useful. It's when we take them beyond their sphere of use, however, that we are misled by them. And, in Zen practice, if we are attached to *any* model, or to anything, we're not practicing, in that interval of

[Zen] Re: Hello

Hi Joe - you state "this is a model" and that is very true. There is nothing you can say about this internal state, and as soon as you open your mouth you are wrong. BUT. you have to say something and a model, like a parable, is a good way to gain some level of understanding. The fact that c

[Zen] Re: Hello

William, There is not a chair. There is a chair, and its environment, and us. Nothing can be extracted or isolated. Everything is intimate with everything. Kant was interested in one thing at a time, and one thing in particular; whereas, the Universe is not, and is not "that way". Each thi

[Zen] Re: Hello

Edgar, If you work as Dogen did, and as his current disciples work, then all's right with the world. To be enlightened by all things is to have no models, no itinerary, and no fixed ideas. Everything has fallen away. There is experience, is all. If you were proposing add-ons, Edgar, then of

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

ust this...thingness. From: Edgar Owen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, April 18, 2013 12:36:18 PM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Hello   William, Well to start with it's simply the way the senses and the brain work. Actually reality is nothing at all

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

Joe and William, Dogen's "Being enlightened BY ALL THINGS" is exactly what I've been explaining here for years to the continued scoffs of Joe and Bill. Being enlightened by all things MEANS seeing the Buddha Nature in the world of forms. It accepts and embraces the world of forms. It doesn't t

[Zen] Re: Hello

William, Edgar wrote: "Zen is understanding how this works so that one can realize the truth nature of things beyond the mind's model of them " And I would say that Zen is the experience and state of being enlightened by all things, which becomes possible after any and all understandings ha

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

m Rintala wrote: > > Is this illusion of the senses akin to Kant's Ding an sich? That we can never > know the objects of our senses but only what our senses perceive. > > From: Joe > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, April 18, 2013 11:01:51 AM > Subject: [Ze

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

Is this illusion of the senses akin to Kant's Ding an sich? That we can never know the objects of our senses but only what our senses perceive. From: Joe To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, April 18, 2013 11:01:51 AM Subject: [Zen] Re: Hello  

[Zen] Re: Hello

Edgar, We observe how they work through the senses. Understanding them this way is perfectly circular. And that is our reality. So, I'd say, don't play it up as something special. We have what we have and make of it what we will. The understanding you build of things like this is a model.

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

Edgar,I think he had a thing about sheep though. He might have been Welsh, too. ; )MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

Bob, Of course you are right and Bill is wrong. The senses are illusions. They are not reality as it actually is. This is abundantly clear to anyone who understands how they work... Edgar On Apr 17, 2013, at 6:37 PM, bobthomas564 wrote: > Hi Bill - To me the senses are inputs from the nose,

RE: [Zen] Re: Hello

Joe,Don't know how low your barometer goes, but I guarantee I can take it down lower. ; )MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone

[Zen] Re: Hello

Mike, The barometer is so low at times that I have to go down to the basement to read it! Trouble is, I have no basement. (very rare to find basements provided in desert houses, due to soil phenomenon of "desert hard-pan", or caliche, like cement beginning eight inches down, extending many fe

RE: [Zen] Re: Hello

Joe,That's neither the wind nor the mind.. it's an effing cyclone of words that's moving!MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

Edgar,Hey, that's not what I would call you, but maybe I have, yes. ; )MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

Jesus?...Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone

[Zen] Re: Hello

Hi Bill - To me the senses are inputs from the nose, eyes, ears, skin, mouth. My thoughts are that these should feed directly to your understanding of the world around you ie god made sense look outwards therefore etc etc. I think that the ego grabs these feeds and uses them to distort our under

[Zen] Re: Hello

Edgar, Bill!, Mike, "It's neither the flag nor the wind that moves: it's your minds that move!" The Sixth Ancestor said that. Y'know. And said it well, I'd say. Jus' sayin'. Keep up the good work, though. --Joe > Edgar Owen wrote: > > Bill and Mike, > > While you guys argue round and rou

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

t; > From: Edgar Owen ; > To: ; > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Hello > Sent: Wed, Apr 17, 2013 2:28:03 PM > > > Bill, > > > If you're a good boy I might tell you about stage 4! > :-) > > Edgar > > > > On Apr 17, 2013, at 10:15 AM, Bill! w

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

m Yahoo! Mail for iPhone > > From: Edgar Owen ; > To: ; > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Hello > Sent: Wed, Apr 17, 2013 2:25:34 PM > > > Bill and Mike, > > > While you guys argue round and round about imaginary foxes I actually feed my > real fox visitors inc

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

Edgar,Are these your imaginary stages like your imaginary computer program analogies?MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

Edgar,Are you actually Dr Doolittle? I can just see you out your garden with animation butterflies and birds flying around you and alighting on your head and shoulders, with the music to that cheesy 80s movie playing.. "Did you ever know that you're my hero?"..MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPho

RE: FW: RE: [Zen] Re: Hello

Bill!,All is see is "Phenomena is not conditioned" and I realise I can't argue with you anymore. Let's call a truce!MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

Bill, If you're a good boy I might tell you about stage 4! :-) Edgar On Apr 17, 2013, at 10:15 AM, Bill! wrote: > Edgar, > > Great! Now that I'm finished with Stage 3 can I move on to Stage 2? > > ...Bill! > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote: > > > > Bill, > > > > Abso

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

some action.." > > >>You do attribute to Dogen the statement in relationship to HYAKUJO AND THE > >>FOX that "cause-and-effect are immovable". That's obviously not so because > >>the turning word removed them. > > The turning word didn't e

[Zen] Re: Hello

Edgar, Great! Now that I'm finished with Stage 3 can I move on to Stage 2? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote: > > Bill, > > Absolutely! You as an empty form being hit by the empty form of a bus > generates the empty form of you dying. It's all empty, but emptiness i

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

Bill, Absolutely! You as an empty form being hit by the empty form of a bus generates the empty form of you dying. It's all empty, but emptiness is real Edgar On Apr 17, 2013, at 8:17 AM, Bill! wrote: > Edgar, > > Is this part of Stage 3? > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen

FW: RE: [Zen] Re: Hello

Mike, I copied the email version of this and pasted it below because the website version got all garbled when I went to REPLY. There are a lot of points here so I'll be brief. If you would like to pick out one or two to discuss further please do, but this is getting to unwieldy for me to cont

RE: FW: RE: [Zen] Re: Hello

Bill!,>>The zen saying "When hungry we (sic) eat" does imply cause and effect. So does "When hungry we don't eat" and "When not hungry we eat". <>Implying doesn't make it so. <>The saying is just meant to describe imp

[Zen] Re: Hello

Edgar, Is this part of Stage 3? --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote: > > Bill, > > If you think you are NOT bound by cause and effect why can't you fly? > > Try stepping in front of a bus and see if you are bound by cause and effect > or not! > > Jz! > > Edgar > > > >

[Zen] Re: Hello

lity disorder? > :-) > > Edgar > > > > On Apr 16, 2013, at 9:56 PM, uerusuboyo@... wrote: > > > > > > > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone > > > > From: uerusuboyo@... ; > > To: BillSmart@... ; > > Subject: RE: [Zen]

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

Bill, If you think you are NOT bound by cause and effect why can't you fly? Try stepping in front of a bus and see if you are bound by cause and effect or not! Jz! Edgar On Apr 17, 2013, at 3:27 AM, Bill! wrote: > Mike, > > The zen saying "When hungry we (sic) eat" does imply cause a

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

iPhone > > From: uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk ; > To: billsm...@hhs1963.org ; > Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Hello > Sent: Wed, Apr 17, 2013 1:54:31 AM > > Bill!, > > How the hell do you survive crossing those busy Thai roads if you dismiss the > relative as just illusion? I

[Zen] Re: Hello

How about the best two out of three? --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: > > Bill!,I did indeed see what you did there, but my play-acting your > characterisation doesn't make my initial post wrong.Heads I win, > tails you lose!MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail > for iPhone > --

[Zen] Re: Hello

Mike, If I said that I erred. I don't remember ever saying that the Absolute was real. The Absolute is illusory just as is the Relative. What I do remember saying was that illusions were not real, and that only experience is real. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@

FW: RE: [Zen] Re: Hello

Mike, The zen saying "When hungry we (sic) eat" does imply cause and effect. So does "When hungry we don't eat" and "When not hungry we eat". Implying doesn't make it so. The saying is just meant to describe impromptu, unconditioned action, not to illustrate cause-and-effect. Also (and IMO)

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

Merle,I was just play-acting the role I was assigned. I know! I'm no Johnny Depp.MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone

RE: [Zen] Re: Hello

Bill!,I did indeed see what you did there, but my play-acting your characterisation doesn't make my initial post wrong.Heads I win, tails you lose!MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone

RE: [Zen] Re: Hello

Bill!,I can certainly go along with this (see Joe's comments on 'suchness'), but that's not what I read in your previous posts (you said only the Absolute was real).MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone

RE: FW: RE: [Zen] Re: Hello

Bill!,As you say, we do need to live in the world of illusions and that is why we need to see things as "real" in terms of the relative (I've never claimed anything as not being illusory, just that to do so is not practical to live a human life). For example, in Zen the saying is 'When hungry w

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

 mike...what are you trying to tell bill!?...elaborate please..merle   Bill!, Now now. I know you're doing the best with what you have, but I'm sure one day you will come around to realise I'm right. I really have your best interests at heart. I really, really do.; ) Mike >I sometimes

[Zen] Re: Hello

Mike, I hope you noticed this sentence was carefully crafted to be as close as possible to the exact opposite of a similar sentence you wrote in previous post. You call it...heads or tails? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: > > Bill!,Now now. I know you're doin

[Zen] Re: Hello

Mike, EXACTLY! Both absolutism and relativism are two sides of an illusory coin. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: > > Bill!,>The koan HYAKUJO AND THE FOX was indeed about the percieved > interplay between absolutism and relativism. The warning however was not ju

FW: RE: [Zen] Re: Hello

Mike, I replied to this in an email to you. I thought you'd sent me a private email. Here is my public reply which is the same as my email to you minus the last paragraph... You do need to live and interact in the world of illusions if you wish to cross the road safely and accept responsibil

RE: [Zen] Re: Hello

Bill!,Now now. I know you're doing the best with what you have, but I'm sure one day you will come around to realise I'm right. I really have your best interests at heart. I really, really do.; )Mike>I sometimes feel you display a balanced, patronizing relativism that may serve to reinforce

RE: [Zen] Re: Hello

Bill!,>The koan HYAKUJO AND THE FOX was indeed about the percieved interplay between absolutism and relativism. The warning however was not just about absolutism, it included relativism also.

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

Bloody hell folks, it's just an expression! Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone

FW: RE: [Zen] Re: Hello

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

Bill, Joe says there are two sides to the coin. Bill says there is only one side to the coin. As usual both you guys are wrong. Like Hui Neng's poem tells with respect to the mirror, there is NO COIN. Edgar On Apr 16, 2013, at 8:32 PM, Bill! wrote: > Mike, > > There are not two sides

[Zen] Re: Hello

Mike, There are not two sides of the coin. There is only one. What you perceive as the 'other side' is a dualistic - an illusion. The illusion of 'being human' and believing that to be 'special' or 'unique' is no different from the illusion of self. Both these illusions (all illusions reall

[Zen] Re: Hello

Bill!, I know it's very late where you are, and we may hear again from you again in a while as the Sun touches your shore in some hours. So, I'll say, in hopes of continuing: Maybe I don't do best, or my best, to call both "real". Perhaps I can do better to call both "natural". When we attac

[Zen] Re: Hello

Chris, quoting: "Recall all, to encounter the absolute is not yet awakening." Right. And, like the Buddha, I recommend carrying the goad that you can best wield in the circumstances. But, recommendations are ineffective, and unnecessary. Wisdom, and your work on clarifying Skilful Means, put

RE: [Zen] Re: Hello

ly > (Hyakujo's Fox). I sometimes feel you display a kind of unbalanced, macho > realist/absolutism that misses the mark of what Compassion truly is. > > Mike > > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone > > -- > * From: * Bill! ; > * To

[Zen] Re: Hello

Bill!, Whether I agree or not is not important, but I want you to know that I agree with your middle paragraph about Compassion. I've always said here that it is not kindness. Kindness is kindness. True compassion arises in an awakened person. There's no two ways about it, as I say. I do n

RE: [Zen] Re: Hello

Bill!,As I see it, you are correct but only from one side of the coin (the Absolute). But this denies what it is to be human. We also operate from the relative, even those of us who are awake to the illusion of a self. Can you honestly say that you wouldn't suffer in the event of a personal trag

[Zen] Re: Hello

Joe, I 'see'; I empathize with you, but I do not agree. IMO to label something as 'real' that I know through experience is not just because it 'feels' real, or just because I 'think' that doing so is the compassionate thing is contraindicated in zen practice. IMO compassion is not kindness, po

RE: [Zen] Re: Hello

At last! Someone has put into words what I've been trying to say, but have been unable to do. Kudos, Joe! And thank you.MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone

[Zen] Re: Hello

Bill!, I'm with you. One perspective is from delusion, and that is the perspective of Practice; the other perspective is the numinous, or that from the Absolute (there's little we can say about it! But see about Alan Watts, below). Both these perspectives and experiences from there are real.

[Zen] Re: Hello

Merle, There is no 6th sense. In fact there are not even five. There is only 1 and it is Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester wrote: > > > >  bob..you forgot the 6th sense..merle > > >   > Bob, > > Thanks for your reply but it did not answer my quest

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

 bob..you forgot the 6th sense..merle   Bob, Thanks for your reply but it did not answer my question which was: "The senses are always engaged. How could you disengage them while remaining conscious?" Perhaps we're using the same words differently. Here is how I am using the word 'sense

[Zen] Re: Hello

Bob, Thanks for your reply but it did not answer my question which was: "The senses are always engaged. How could you disengage them while remaining conscious?" Perhaps we're using the same words differently. Here is how I am using the word 'senses'. 'Senses' to me is an awkward, dualistica

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

 hi bob..i looked in new files..i did not see them..i will look again and get back to you...thanks ...merle   Hi Merle I loaded one of them in the 'files' area. Unfortunately it is not organised into a date format. It is about halfway down the first page. I will post a few more if you are i

[Zen] Re: Hello

HI Bill thanks for the welcome. To answer your question I think there are different levels of awareness of our senses. To remind the new meditators of their senses brings, what is normally an autonomous process back into 'immediate reality' (indicating a clearer idea of the senses rather than t

[Zen] Re: Hello

Bob, Welcome to the group.. I was also taught to relax my eyes so they are only 'half' open, lower my gaze to about 3 feet in front of me and allow my eyes to de-focus. Closed eyes were discouraged to help keep your mind from wandering, minimize visualizations and because as you note of the t

[Zen] Re: Hello

Hi Merle I loaded one of them in the 'files' area. Unfortunately it is not organised into a date format. It is about halfway down the first page. I will post a few more if you are interested? Bob --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester wrote: > > > >  hi bob... > > sounds great unfo

[Zen] Re: Hello

HI Joe - I agree. I was taught to squint through slightly open eyes but not at first. The senses do need to be engaged but should work 'properly' ie not allowing the ego to take control of them and run with them. Easier said than done. The ego, as it throws up things, always strike me like files

[Zen] Re: Hello

Joe, IMO... If you use the word 'sense' to mean 'experience' than there is only one 'sense' and that is Buddha Nature. Our discriminating mind does divide up our experiences into five categories. Thinking is not a sense because it is not an experience. It does give the illusion of experienc

Re: [Zen] Re: Hello

 hi bob... sounds great unfortunately i am unable to attend where would the attachments be found?...cheers merle   Hello Joe and thank you. I guess it is a little unusual, but I do not put much faith in dogma. Westerners have real problems sitting for an hour in a full or half lotus, so I s

[Zen] Re: Hello

Bob, Thanks for posting the "notes" to the Group site as a .doc file. Well done and generous teaching and encouragement. Gee, I wish I could sit with your group. I'll note that, in general, in Zen practice as I've encountered it as taught and as practiced, we do not close the eyes. There are

[Zen] Re: Hello

Bob, It sounds great! I wonder for how long you've been offering the sitting. At most practice places I've attended -- even the most formal and traditional -- there are options as to posture, and whether to use a bench or chair or not. I don't call that "dogma": I call it being a good host!

[Zen] Re: Hello

Hello Joe and thank you. I guess it is a little unusual, but I do not put much faith in dogma. Westerners have real problems sitting for an hour in a full or half lotus, so I say to them that it is the meditation that is important and the method of sitting is secondary. People are welcome to si

[Zen] Re: Hello

Welcome, to the Group, Bob! Good of Merle to recommend the site. Do I understand that you are organizing the Zen in a Chair practice? I hope you'll tell us a bit about it, as you wish. I don't think Merle has attended, so we have not heard details, only the interesting title. Greetings!, fro

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