I worked on Wall St. for 10 years. I understand your audience and can buy that piece like mine can cause some of them pain due to the "management by magazine" principle. However, I also get an equal number of people that request my assistance in helping them sell the concept to senior management.
I agree this piece doesn't assist practitioners with approach, but for those having difficulties getting the organization to "buy in" to the concepts of SOA, articles like mine can provide an external perspective for them to point to why they need to do this today. Thanks for stepping up to the plate! JP ============================ JP Morgenthal Managing Partner, Avorcor (703) 648-1520 ***Sent From Blackberry*** -----Original Message----- From: "Sarode, Prashant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 14:55:30 To:<[email protected]> Subject: RE: [service-orientated-architecture] My article on Line56.com JP, Please type the following query on Google “How to do SOA right?”. You will find enough sample of “generic” stuff/fluff. You seam to have taken “generic” as bad. I tend to think of it as “introductory/usual”. Other places to find generic stuff—CIO, InfoWorld, Network Storage, ZapThink, WS&T online, SearchWebServices.com etc etc. Your article is good for beginners/masses. Your article tends to seek some analogy of times and arguments when Web/Internet-wave happened for enterprises. I take that argument as one of many speculations about “why and if SOA investments would be made”. Few days I happen to read another argument of linking outsourcing to SOA. These arguments can be entertaining and at times intellectually stimulating. But I am not sure if they provide any more or new insights for SOA practitioners on this board. I am on advisory board of WallStreet & Technology magazine for last 3yrs and spoken at WallStreet conferences. I have witnessed enough frustration from senior IT management staff from Financial Services (of IT diverse sizes and aptitude) about “generic” fluff in the name of white papers meant to guide them. Now that’s my opinion and I understand that you don’t like it. But, sorry, what to do …I guess I have to say I disagree respectfully J. Prashant Sarode ---------------- From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JP Morgenthal Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 1:46 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [service-orientated-architecture] My article on Line56.com Prashant, Maybe I’m a cynic, but I know many (many) smart businesses that don’t keep constant vigil over their processes. Moreover, they have tons of waste that can be easily seen by doing any type of business with them. Your point about smart businesses comes across naïve and is seemingly be used to develop out your argument, which still does not address your original point to about my article being just another generic writing on SOA. Sorry if my pushback seems intense, but I’ve been working with engineers for years that think all this “business stuff” is foo-foo. Well, it’s not. And IT often does a horrible job of supporting the initiatives of the organization because they don’t manage expectations well. The company that I’ve seen manage expectations best is Telus in Canada. They set up a QuickWin team to automate business solutions quickly, but not robustly, while IT works on developing out the concept in a production manner. This takes into account the best of both worlds, the need for speed and the need for reliability. If you want a technical reason to support SOA, this is the one to expand upon. I’m on the board of BPM conference that has significant attendance from the Fortune 500. We have usually between 400-600 people 4 times annually from these organizations and most of them are in the same position of just beginning to figure out what to do. Sorry, but your “smart business” argument doesn’t hold water with me nor does your points about grandiose implementation plans as I have not mentioned anything even alluding to an approach to SOA in my article. If you want to criticize the article as generic, do so, but if you want to do that, have the muster to back up the comment. I love to debate and I can take good, positive criticism. But, once you unleash the monster, you need to stand and deliver on your commentary. So far, I have found your arguments weak with no supporting evidence. I think you can do better! JP Avorcor, Inc. <http://www.avorcor.com/morgenthal> Integrating across the Hinges of Business JP Morgenthal Managing Partner Avorcor, Inc. 12110 Sunset Hills Road, Suite 450 Reston, VA 20190 [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: fax: mobile: (703) 648-1520 (703) 648-1523 (703) 554-5301 Add me to your address book... Want a signature like this? ---------------- From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sarode, Prashant Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 10:15 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [service-orientated-architecture] My article on Line56.com JP Wrote: To summarize my article, my assessment is that the current efforts around process re-engineering is going to drive changes in how companies do business, those changes are going to mandate cheaper and faster ways of doing things with less human resources, which will establish an environment that will allow SOA to thrive. As a result, companies will not have a choice to invest in SOA in 3-5 years, because, like the web, it will be a requirement for doing business. Smart businesses always think of doing things in a manner that is high-quality, that is cheap and that is efficient—nothing new here. The efforts around process re-engineering that you refer as “current”, to me, do not feel “current” but for smart companies they have always been “on-going”. My observations are simple: * Selling SOA is a tough sell to CEO’s or Business directly. IT function (in its existence for now 20-25 old yrs now) has always had the charter to make sure that CEO can run the business smoothly , be able to tap new opportunities, do more with less, do things quicker than competition and have technology that offers competitive advantages. Now if the argument is that CEO’s are disgruntled at IT folks (based on last 20yrs of historical performance) that IT has not delivered then how the can we get the CEO to agree this time that “because of SOA” we, the IT function, will be able to deliver on the charter established for itself. Most “generic” writings around “how to do SOA right” recommend (as said in my last post), to take a grandiose approach (which usually would translate into multi-year, multi-million dollar project)... I understand that this approach can be incremental but it has to be advertised upfront, consensus & initiative planning has to be done upfront and that means it will get tracked yearly (read CIO yearly performance bonus issue). I have reservations to that approach especially for IT shops which have in past failed on doing something that grandiose. I agree, in theory, that we need a business view to start with for a good SOA but in practice it is very difficult to execute or come out with a tangible list of SOA initiatives (dollar sponsored) that can be said to incorporate business view and then measure the success of those initiatives (or level of “business view incorporation”). So I concur with Todd’s recent reply that if IT has bad reputation today based on it recent and historical delivery performance then SOA argument to CEO will do no more good. I understand Todd’s point that SOA will help in KPI’s for IT processes. In that sense SOA is a “sell” limited to CIO’s only. Smart companies with smart CIO’s who have been successful with leveraging technology in past will identify the enabling value of SOA and adopt it. I don’t believe they will need to go and convince CEO’s/Business about SOA. Walmart’s IT has been credited widely for its contribution to its success—even before SOA term was coined in. CIO of Walmart will once again notice the value SOA and use this tool to help CEO of Walmart do good things for the company. Prashant Sarode ---------------- From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JP Morgenthal Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 6:03 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [service-orientated-architecture] My article on Line56.com Prashant, I’m not offended, but I do believe that your assessment is incorrect. I have not seen any other assessments of SOA as becoming a requirement for doing business except for the ZapThink’s guys new book perhaps (which I have not read, but the title insinuates this). I don’t believe you read the article correctly if you think I’m promoting an approach to SOA. To summarize my article, my assessment is that the current efforts around process re-engineering is going to drive changes in how companies do business, those changes are going to mandate cheaper and faster ways of doing things with less human resources, which will establish an environment that will allow SOA to thrive. As a result, companies will not have a choice to invest in SOA in 3-5 years, because, like the web, it will be a requirement for doing business. If you have references to other “generic” pieces that express this point, I’d be interested in reading them, because all of the pieces directed at helping non-technical managers understand the importance of this technology do focus on the points you raise in your response, which is the problem. JP Avorcor, Inc. <http://www.avorcor.com/morgenthal> Integrating across the Hinges of Business JP Morgenthal Managing Partner Avorcor, Inc. 12110 Sunset Hills Road, Suite 450 Reston, VA 20190 [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: fax: mobile: (703) 648-1520 (703) 648-1523 (703) 554-5301 Add me to your address book... Want a signature like this? ---------------- From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sarode, Prashant Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 4:53 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [service-orientated-architecture] My article on Line56.com JP, I read the entire article and honestly I found it one of the many generic pitches (that I have heard for now 2yrs) of SOA to CEO. I hope I am not offending you. Of all generic articles that I have read on “how to pitch/introduce SOA at one’s organization”, most of them recommend this, somewhat grandiose, approach of understanding business processes and focusing decomposition of business into processes and services blah blah… I have absolutely difficultly to digest the above approach. I have had enough of 12 month “IBM consultant-kind” of blueprint studies of business and strategy roadmaps (with no followers and hence no execution and further dent to IT reputation in front of business). Todd, I am intrigued by your arguments. The perception that I am getting (I hope that they are accurate) is as follows: You are suggesting pitch CEO that SOA will help IT processes. The KPI’s around IT in turn would help CEO’s re-structure the business quickly. Your argument in a way suggests—IT folks should first learn the how to utilize SOA internally and at least realize EAI related benefits first. Convince themselves first of the KPI’s and then go to business on benefits of SOA, re-engineering business blah blah… The above approach seams digestible—as it has humble beginnings which are less disruptive in nature. There are IT organizations who no official SOA initiative going on but they are they with great Technology Architecture teams and great mature IT processes. CEO of such organizations can re-structure business quickly even without SOA. Bottom line ..unless there are revenue making services (or applications) its very hard to win the “great for business” argument with CEO’s. Hope I am making sense.. Prashant Sarode Sr. Enterprise Architect Investors Bank & Trust Co. ---------------- From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JP Morgenthal Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 3:20 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [service-orientated-architecture] My article on Line56.com Todd, It did not come across as a flame at all. If anything I was alluding to the fact that I thought there would be more flame and I was jibing you if that’s the best you could do. J JP Avorcor, Inc. <http://www.avorcor.com/morgenthal> Integrating across the Hinges of Business JP Morgenthal Managing Partner Avorcor, Inc. 12110 Sunset Hills Road, Suite 450 Reston, VA 20190 [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: fax: mobile: (703) 648-1520 (703) 648-1523 (703) 554-5301 Add me to your address book... Want a signature like this? ---------------- From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Biske, Todd Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 9:54 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [service-orientated-architecture] My article on Line56.com Hopefully it didn't come across that way. The latter part of my comments are actually the most important, and I'd love to see more articles that lay it on the line for CIOs. An article, such as yours, that targets a CEO, rather than a CIO, approaches this from the perspective that IT is always bringing new technology to the business. I'd argue that SOA is not so much about technology, as it is the way we decompose business problems into technology solutions, i.e. it's about the solution development process. The CIO needs to treat IT as a business, and work to remove the inefficiencies that inevitably impact the bottom line. If it means a fundamental change in how we build systems, so be it. The CIO, or whoever is engaging the CEO, needs to put IT processes in the business perspective and demonstrate how adopting SOA can reduce costs, improve productivity, reduce "time-to-market", etc. I think the burden is on IT to become more business aware than vice versa. -tb -----Original Message----- From: JP Morgenthal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 6:42 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [service-orientated-architecture] My article on Line56.com Todd, I did target this at the masses and more importantly, I wrote the article so that every IT person can print it out and put it on their CEO’s desk. As for your commentary that followed, was that a flame? J JP Avorcor, Inc. <http://www.avorcor.com/morgenthal> Integrating across the Hinges of Business JP Morgenthal Managing Partner Avorcor, Inc. 12110 Sunset Hills Road, Suite 450 Reston, VA 20190 [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: fax: mobile: (703) 648-1520 (703) 648-1523 (703) 554-5301 Add me to your address book... Want a signature like this? ---------------- From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Biske, Todd Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 4:00 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [service-orientated-architecture] My article on Line56.com It certainly does. For an article of this length, we all need to understand that it is written for the masses, and it would be easy to contradict particular points as being not appropriate for particular groups. Before I do that, I'll say that I think the conclusions are definitely applicable to the masses, and at a good, consistent level. Now for the fun part. :) You compared SOA adoption to adoption of Web strategies in the mid-90's. Using that same comparison, it is also true that many companies jumped on the Web bandwagon and failed miserably, because a web strategy didn't fit in with the overall business strategy. The same thing holds true for SOA. Companies should not go blindly into SOA without understanding how an SOA approach will benefit the business strategy. At a recent conference I attended, almost every presenter began with a definition of SOA. Why? Because everyone is going to need to apply the principles behind SOA in their own, unique way. You state: The truth of the matter is that all signs point toward process re-engineering and optimization as one of the driving initiatives for companies over the ten years. Depending on the line of business, the need for process re-engineering and optimization may have already reached a critical point, or that point may be 10 years out on the horizon. SOA is another tool in the repotoire for improving the business, and as with any successful business strategy, it's not simply about applying a technique, it's about applying the technique at the right time. If your business isn't ready for "textbook SOA," you shouldn't be doing it. After reading the first few paragraphs, I thought you were going to go down a path of doing a business process improvement exercise on IT, but you didn't. I think this is actually a very good analogy. If the software development/integration processes are impacting the bottom line, we should set out to improve those processes. A process improvement initiative will involve tracking key performance indicators. I would argue that a company that doesn't have a handle on KPIs is not going to be successful in reorganizing a sales team with new offices around a new business opportunity, just as an IT department is not going to be successful in adopting SOA if they don't have KPIs on their development and integration processes. David Linthicum has blogged about IT shops adopting SOA without really understanding it: http://blogs.ittoolbox.com/eai/cto/archives/006603.asp There are probably many companies that will go down that route. An SOA strategy must be planned, and must be done in incremental steps that can be effectively managed and digested by the IT department and the company. In my talk at the conference I mentioned earlier, my closing slide had the following comment: "A goal of SOA is to allow IT to better acccomodate change. To be successful, we need to presume and embrace change in our (IT's) systems and processes." Put a different way, if the IT department can't embrace the changes in software development associated with an enterprise adoption of SOA, they will be very challenged in supporting the changes required by the business in the future. -tb -----Original Message----- From: JP Morgenthal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 12:26 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [service-orientated-architecture] My article on Line56.com Thought this would make for some interesting discussion! http://www.line56.com/articles/default.asp?articleID=7120&TopicID=3 Avorcor, Inc. <http://www.avorcor.com/morgenthal> Integrating across the Hinges of Business JP Morgenthal Managing Partner Avorcor, Inc. 12110 Sunset Hills Road, Suite 450 Reston, VA 20190 [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: fax: mobile: (703) 648-1520 (703) 648-1523 (703) 554-5301 Add me to your address book... Want a signature like this? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A.G. 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